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I'm trying to put together a Khorne Hunting Party list. However I cannot think of anything that'll reliably deal with AV14.
Currently it looks like this:
Spoiler:
Herald of Khorne, Jugernought, Greater Etherblade, 120
Herald of Khorne, Jugernought, Greater Etherblade, 120
Herald of Khorne, Jugernought, Greater Etherblade, 120
15* Hounds, 240
15* Hounds, 240
15* Hounds, 240
Bloodletters, 100
Bloodletters, 100
The Heralds each join a hound squad (Holy Number, what?) and the letters are there to fufill the troops choices. This runs at 1280 points.
I had thought of chucking in some Bloodcrushers as well for more turn 2 assaulty goodness however I figure at this points level I'll have to deal with AV14. Any ideas for 1500 or 1850?
Redbeard wrote: Yes, you can roast guardsmen, but big deal, you will usually be playing marines.
Maybe in your local meta. Look at the entries for the bay area open. In the top 50 tables 58% of them were not MEQ. The concept that you face mostly MEQ is not true in today's large tournaments.
Redbeard wrote: I haven't seen splinter cannons in a game since the week after 6e hit and everyone stopped playing Dark Eldar. You know what I have seen a lot of? S8(+) weapons.
OrdoSean, who won Templecon 2013 ran a dark eldar army. He had eight splinter cannons. Apparently he did not get the memo that everyone stopped playing dark eldar . If you see him at Adepticon this year, perhaps you can tell him that he's playing the wrong army. You can look for him at the top tables.
LValx wrote: The biggest weakness seems to be the overwhelming amount of units that serve one purpose, assault, in a shooting based meta-game.
To be fair, that's a pretty glaring big weakness.
Experiment 626 wrote: Flamers are in no way underpowered. Just because you no longer outright ignore MEQ saves does not make a unit crap. And Flamers do make-up for the lack of ap3 - they kept their newer T4/W2 profile and now re-roll failed 1's to save on top of it. (and the Pyrocaster has a 33% chance to gain a non-Warpflame S5 template if you feel inclined to take a chance...)
They also are no longer forced to Deep Strike into play and thus severely limit their first round of shooting. They can now deploy normally and are still Jump Infantry giving them solid mobility and the ability to hug cover/LoS blocking terrain.
Risk vs reward is still heavily in the favour of the Flamers. 3+ saves be damned when you're inflicting 40+ auto-hits against that marine unit! ...
Okay, when discussing risk vs reward, it's good to have an idea what you're risking. How many flamers are you running to get 40+ hits on a unit of ten marines? And is the marine player unaware that you have flamers in your army and bunching his guys up for you?
Under the old codex (not the OPWD update), I thought that the 35ppm (105 point 3-man unit) was a reasonable risk for the reward that, if they landed right, they could kill a squad of marines before dying. The reward is a net of about 180 points, the risk is 105, and they'd hit or get close enough maybe half the time. To get 10 kills, you'd need to get about 20 guys under the template, so you'd be looking for about seven hits per flamer.
To kill the same 10 marines now, you need to inflict 30 wounds, which is 60 hits. But there's no way you're getting max hits with each template, so expecting seven hits per guy is unrealistic, and you're probably hoping for an average of 5, with the flamers at the front getting more, and the ones in the back getting less (or none) due to suboptimal angles. So you're looking at a squad size of 12? So that's roughly 280 points to kill the 180 points of marines, and this is now somehow a reasonable risk vs reward? I guess the risk that you lose the whole squad is lessened, but I'm just not seeing the positive payoff in this unit anymore.
(And 5++ re-rolling 1's is worse than a 4++ (It's about 39%).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/11 02:59:12
I have ran several test games with the new codex. All in all, it is balanced against the new 6th edition books.
It is not balanced against Grey Knights. Not buy a long shot.
I tested it in 3 games with various configurations against a Coteaz Henchman + Purifier build. It fails miserably. It simply can't deal
with the firepower; even when using Icons+Instruments and hugging cover. 1 turn of shooting is all an optimized GK build needs to do
enough damage that the daemon player really can't recover.
I haven't tested it against Draigo Wing yet, but I don't think it will fare well. It doesn't have an answer to the Paladins in assault, and can't
do much damage to them with shooting.
The codex is really awesome from a 6th edition perspective. Against Chaos Space Marines or Dark Angels it performs fine. It also performs fine against
Orks, Vanilla Marines, & Eldar. Optimized Grey Knight, Necron, Dark Eldar, & IG builds are really bad matchups. The codex simply doesn't have a good answer.
have ran several test games with the new codex. All in all, it is balanced against the new 6th edition books. The codex is really awesome from a 6th edition perspective. Against Chaos Space Marines or Dark Angels it performs fine. It also performs fine against Orks, Vanilla Marines, & Eldar. Optimized Grey Knight, Necron, Dark Eldar, & IG builds are really bad matchups. The codex simply doesn't have a good answer.
Actually, I think DA and Orks will beat the crap out of the Daemons (the former will use Rad Grenades and Termies, the later does the same as the CD, only cheaper and better). And Biomancy Spam Nids will be also a very bad matchup. But Daemons will eat C:SM and CSM for breakfast, that's granted.
have ran several test games with the new codex. All in all, it is balanced against the new 6th edition books. The codex is really awesome from a 6th edition perspective. Against Chaos Space Marines or Dark Angels it performs fine. It also performs fine against Orks, Vanilla Marines, & Eldar. Optimized Grey Knight, Necron, Dark Eldar, & IG builds are really bad matchups. The codex simply doesn't have a good answer.
Actually, I think DA and Orks will beat the crap out of the Daemons (the former will use Rad Grenades and Termies, the later does the same as the CD, only cheaper and better). And Biomancy Spam Nids will be also a very bad matchup. But Daemons will eat C:SM and CSM for breakfast, that's granted.
my humble 1500pt Salamander list managed a win against the new demons last week.....I didn't get eaten for breakfast. I don't even have Vulkan before you ask.
Another subtle nerf on flamers that I didn't notice until today - now they can't wound anything further away than 8 inches.
When the FAQ changed the rule on wounding outside of range, it didn't really bother flamers because they used to have the 18 inch shooting attack. Now they don't, so they can't wound anything the template can't reach.
Truly a useless unit now, comparatively. Though to be fair Redbeard, they didn't have a 4++ after the WD update. It was just a 5++.
Okay, when discussing risk vs reward, it's good to have an idea what you're risking. How many flamers are you running to get 40+ hits on a unit of ten marines? And is the marine player unaware that you have flamers in your army and bunching his guys up for you?
Under the old codex (not the OPWD update), I thought that the 35ppm (105 point 3-man unit) was a reasonable risk for the reward that, if they landed right, they could kill a squad of marines before dying. The reward is a net of about 180 points, the risk is 105, and they'd hit or get close enough maybe half the time. To get 10 kills, you'd need to get about 20 guys under the template, so you'd be looking for about seven hits per flamer.
To kill the same 10 marines now, you need to inflict 30 wounds, which is 60 hits. But there's no way you're getting max hits with each template, so expecting seven hits per guy is unrealistic, and you're probably hoping for an average of 5, with the flamers at the front getting more, and the ones in the back getting less (or none) due to suboptimal angles. So you're looking at a squad size of 12? So that's roughly 280 points to kill the 180 points of marines, and this is now somehow a reasonable risk vs reward? I guess the risk that you lose the whole squad is lessened, but I'm just not seeing the positive payoff in this unit anymore.
(And 5++ re-rolling 1's is worse than a 4++ (It's about 39%).
The old 3-man Suicide squads were simply one-shot deals that you used to deal with something nasty without your opponent being able to counter it until they'd alreasy lost an unit/most of a unit.
The new ones are no longer those 'easy-button' suicide solutions. But they are pretty damn good since they're still T4/W2 and have a better save than they did in the WD update. You simply use them differently now. Deep Striking them is no longer a viable way to deploy them because you lose out on templates. But being able to deploy normally and with a 12" movement/turn means you should be able to hug cover/keep out of sight while advancing towards your intended target.
9 Flamers is still only 207pts which is pretty much on-par cost-wise with an average Tactical squad. (10 marines + power toy + plasma/missile launcher) Those 9 Flamers will likely average 5 hits per model between them - that's 45 hits which is an average of 7.425 dead marines.
Those last 3 survivors do what now? Shoot you? They're not garanteed to still have their missile launcher left alive while the plasma gun is riskier than a bolter for no gain. Even 3 rapid-firing bolters is of little concern. Do they assault you? 9 Flamers with their Wall of Death reaction averages 2-3 dead MEQ's so what, the Sergeant deals a couple wounds and then gets gangbeaten in return?!
That's a pretty good trade. You'll still likely take-out at least one entire unit/most of it, and now your opponent is forced to turn attention to your Flamers. (and away from other threats). And unless your opponent is spamming the crap out of S8, it's still going to take some effort to remove 18/T4/5++ re-rolling 1's worth of wounds. Opponent's will almost certainly be spending far more pts to kill off your Flamers than what your Flamers are worth, so again, you come out ahead.
NoArmorSave wrote: I have ran several test games with the new codex. All in all, it is balanced against the new 6th edition books.
It is not balanced against Grey Knights. Not buy a long shot.
I tested it in 3 games with various configurations against a Coteaz Henchman + Purifier build. It fails miserably. It simply can't deal
with the firepower; even when using Icons+Instruments and hugging cover. 1 turn of shooting is all an optimized GK build needs to do
enough damage that the daemon player really can't recover.
I haven't tested it against Draigo Wing yet, but I don't think it will fare well. It doesn't have an answer to the Paladins in assault, and can't
do much damage to them with shooting.
This is not surprising in the least, and yet should not be seen as a symptom of Daemons being weak, but rather the GK book being far too good vs a specific army to the point it's an instant hard-counter. (which is horrible game design)
Against Knights, I get the feeling that heavy Slaanesh w/minimum sized Plaguebearer units for objective camping is they way to go. High initiative, very fast, rending for TEQ killing and characters who are easy to turn into beatsticks. (Locus of Beguilement + Greater Etherblade will chop apart GK's fairly well)
Back it up with Grinders for ap3 pie-plates and leave all the big expensive monsters at home because htose pointy-death sticks + Daemonbane will eat them for lunch.
NoArmorSave wrote: The codex is really awesome from a 6th edition perspective. Against Chaos Space Marines or Dark Angels it performs fine. It also performs fine against Orks, Vanilla Marines, & Eldar. Optimized Grey Knight, Necron, Dark Eldar, & IG builds are really bad matchups. The codex simply doesn't have a good answer.
I agree, so far it's probably a slight bit ahead of both CSM's & DA's, but nowhere near the codex creep that ruined 5th.
Necron tesla spam will hurt Daemons big time though due to how brutal it makes their Overwatch, while the Flying French Bakery will simply be an outright rush to see if you can wipe the one or two small on-table squads before the aircraft come into play.
Most of the local IG players either run gunlines/bad leafblower still or else flyer spam. Nurgle with decent amounts of cover will laugh at static gunlines with their 2++ cover saves, while a Horror spam + Nurgle Grinders could prove to be a pain for Vendetta spam due to all the S6/7. Horrors backed-up by divination could concievibly glance those flyers to death while those lascannons do little in return against them.
have ran several test games with the new codex. All in all, it is balanced against the new 6th edition books. The codex is really awesome from a 6th edition perspective. Against Chaos Space Marines or Dark Angels it performs fine. It also performs fine against Orks, Vanilla Marines, & Eldar. Optimized Grey Knight, Necron, Dark Eldar, & IG builds are really bad matchups. The codex simply doesn't have a good answer.
Actually, I think DA and Orks will beat the crap out of the Daemons (the former will use Rad Grenades and Termies, the later does the same as the CD, only cheaper and better). And Biomancy Spam Nids will be also a very bad matchup. But Daemons will eat C:SM and CSM for breakfast, that's granted.
It destroyed a competitive Ork army in testing. Daemons can out assault Orks. And the Rad Grenades and Termies aren't a big deal against massed T3 rending models.
Biomancy Spam Nids would be bad, especially with a couple of Flyrants.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/11 14:19:33
Okay, when discussing risk vs reward, it's good to have an idea what you're risking. How many flamers are you running to get 40+ hits on a unit of ten marines? And is the marine player unaware that you have flamers in your army and bunching his guys up for you?
Under the old codex (not the OPWD update), I thought that the 35ppm (105 point 3-man unit) was a reasonable risk for the reward that, if they landed right, they could kill a squad of marines before dying. The reward is a net of about 180 points, the risk is 105, and they'd hit or get close enough maybe half the time. To get 10 kills, you'd need to get about 20 guys under the template, so you'd be looking for about seven hits per flamer.
To kill the same 10 marines now, you need to inflict 30 wounds, which is 60 hits. But there's no way you're getting max hits with each template, so expecting seven hits per guy is unrealistic, and you're probably hoping for an average of 5, with the flamers at the front getting more, and the ones in the back getting less (or none) due to suboptimal angles. So you're looking at a squad size of 12? So that's roughly 280 points to kill the 180 points of marines, and this is now somehow a reasonable risk vs reward? I guess the risk that you lose the whole squad is lessened, but I'm just not seeing the positive payoff in this unit anymore.
(And 5++ re-rolling 1's is worse than a 4++ (It's about 39%).
The old 3-man Suicide squads were simply one-shot deals that you used to deal with something nasty without your opponent being able to counter it until they'd alreasy lost an unit/most of a unit.
The new ones are no longer those 'easy-button' suicide solutions. But they are pretty damn good since they're still T4/W2 and have a better save than they did in the WD update. You simply use them differently now. Deep Striking them is no longer a viable way to deploy them because you lose out on templates. But being able to deploy normally and with a 12" movement/turn means you should be able to hug cover/keep out of sight while advancing towards your intended target.
9 Flamers is still only 207pts which is pretty much on-par cost-wise with an average Tactical squad. (10 marines + power toy + plasma/missile launcher) Those 9 Flamers will likely average 5 hits per model between them - that's 45 hits which is an average of 7.425 dead marines.
Those last 3 survivors do what now? Shoot you? They're not garanteed to still have their missile launcher left alive while the plasma gun is riskier than a bolter for no gain. Even 3 rapid-firing bolters is of little concern. Do they assault you? 9 Flamers with their Wall of Death reaction averages 2-3 dead MEQ's so what, the Sergeant deals a couple wounds and then gets gangbeaten in return?!
That's a pretty good trade. You'll still likely take-out at least one entire unit/most of it, and now your opponent is forced to turn attention to your Flamers. (and away from other threats). And unless your opponent is spamming the crap out of S8, it's still going to take some effort to remove 18/T4/5++ re-rolling 1's worth of wounds. Opponent's will almost certainly be spending far more pts to kill off your Flamers than what your Flamers are worth, so again, you come out ahead.
NoArmorSave wrote: I have ran several test games with the new codex. All in all, it is balanced against the new 6th edition books.
It is not balanced against Grey Knights. Not buy a long shot.
I tested it in 3 games with various configurations against a Coteaz Henchman + Purifier build. It fails miserably. It simply can't deal
with the firepower; even when using Icons+Instruments and hugging cover. 1 turn of shooting is all an optimized GK build needs to do
enough damage that the daemon player really can't recover.
I haven't tested it against Draigo Wing yet, but I don't think it will fare well. It doesn't have an answer to the Paladins in assault, and can't
do much damage to them with shooting.
This is not surprising in the least, and yet should not be seen as a symptom of Daemons being weak, but rather the GK book being far too good vs a specific army to the point it's an instant hard-counter. (which is horrible game design)
Against Knights, I get the feeling that heavy Slaanesh w/minimum sized Plaguebearer units for objective camping is they way to go. High initiative, very fast, rending for TEQ killing and characters who are easy to turn into beatsticks. (Locus of Beguilement + Greater Etherblade will chop apart GK's fairly well)
Back it up with Grinders for ap3 pie-plates and leave all the big expensive monsters at home because htose pointy-death sticks + Daemonbane will eat them for lunch.
NoArmorSave wrote: The codex is really awesome from a 6th edition perspective. Against Chaos Space Marines or Dark Angels it performs fine. It also performs fine against Orks, Vanilla Marines, & Eldar. Optimized Grey Knight, Necron, Dark Eldar, & IG builds are really bad matchups. The codex simply doesn't have a good answer.
I agree, so far it's probably a slight bit ahead of both CSM's & DA's, but nowhere near the codex creep that ruined 5th.
Necron tesla spam will hurt Daemons big time though due to how brutal it makes their Overwatch, while the Flying French Bakery will simply be an outright rush to see if you can wipe the one or two small on-table squads before the aircraft come into play.
Most of the local IG players either run gunlines/bad leafblower still or else flyer spam. Nurgle with decent amounts of cover will laugh at static gunlines with their 2++ cover saves, while a Horror spam + Nurgle Grinders could prove to be a pain for Vendetta spam due to all the S6/7. Horrors backed-up by divination could concievibly glance those flyers to death while those lascannons do little in return against them.
Interesting times to say the least!
I tested massed Slaanesh against GK. It fails against an optimized shooty GK build. The amount of damage the daemons usually take in the shooting phase is pure destruction.
All in all, I am dissapointed in the new book from a competitive game play perspective. As a point of reference, I own around 20K of Daemons, and have been playing them since mid 5th.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/11 14:18:45
NoArmorSave wrote: I tested massed Slaanesh against GK. It fails against an optimized shooty GK build. The amount of damage the daemons usually take in the shooting phase is pure destruction.
All in all, I am dissapointed in the new book from a competitive game play perspective. As a point of reference, I own around 20K of Daemons, and have been playing them since mid 5th.
I think were going to see that a lot. IG/GK shooty armies will cause a lot of problems for daemons, as they can erase entire squads at a time. This is true when you have squads that are extremely tough like paladins. What build did your opponent bring?
I think were going to see some changes to daemons and how they operate. I expect the 'net lists' people are throwing up will have some weaknesses that people will learn and work around. In a game I played this weekend I faced a shooty IG army that could put out over 100 STR 5/6 shots a turn. It should have completely rolled over my daemons, yet I pulled out a win. A big reason for this was fateweaver -- despite how people say he got nurfed to uselessness.
If your really unhappy with your daemons, I suggest ebaying them, or at least shelving them. If you think the grass is greener on the GK side, I am sure you can trade for some GK at bartertown.com. I want to give you a warning though, GK are having a tough time in the world of triple helldrake. Anything not in a land raider/storm raven that does not have a 2+ save will be deep fried vs any CSM player.
NoArmorSave wrote: I tested massed Slaanesh against GK. It fails against an optimized shooty GK build. The amount of damage the daemons usually take in the shooting phase is pure destruction.
All in all, I am dissapointed in the new book from a competitive game play perspective. As a point of reference, I own around 20K of Daemons, and have been playing them since mid 5th.
I think were going to see that a lot. IG/GK shooty armies will cause a lot of problems for daemons, as they can erase entire squads at a time. This is true when you have squads that are extremely tough like paladins. What build did your opponent bring?
I think were going to see some changes to daemons and how they operate. I expect the 'net lists' people are throwing up will have some weaknesses that people will learn and work around. In a game I played this weekend I faced a shooty IG army that could put out over 100 STR 5/6 shots a turn. It should have completely rolled over my daemons, yet I pulled out a win. A big reason for this was fateweaver -- despite how people say he got nurfed to uselessness.
If your really unhappy with your daemons, I suggest ebaying them, or at least shelving them. If you think the grass is greener on the GK side, I am sure you can trade for some GK at bartertown.com. I want to give you a warning though, GK are having a tough time in the world of triple helldrake. Anything not in a land raider/storm raven that does not have a 2+ save will be deep fried vs any CSM player.
I will never sell my Daemons, as I love the models. I have spent too much time painting them, and the rules are still playable. As far as GK, I already have around 10K of them, mostly painted.
I play both armies and understand the matchup well. Triple Helldrake is tough until it meets Draigo Wing.
The playtesting I did against daemons was Coteaz, 3 squads of 10x Purifiers with 4x Psycannons each in Chimeras from Acolytes, 6x Acolytes in Psybacks, 3x Psyrifleman, Aegis+Icarus
Nice battle report BTW.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/11 15:04:24
labmouse42 wrote: If you think the grass is greener on the GK side, I am sure you can trade for some GK at bartertown.com. I want to give you a warning though, GK are having a tough time in the world of triple helldrake.
While we have only two GK players in my area, they tend to do well against Helldrakes. S8 Rifleman dreads are not bad at shooting them down, andnthey can get cheap bodies to boost numbers and volume of fire to attack the meat of the enemy army at least as fast as the drake can nuke troops. Though to be fair, I've only seen CSM fielding 2 of them at the same time. I use one, and half the time it blows up the turn it enters the table due to aegis quad-guns.
I think eventually CD will spawn a competitive list...based on an exploit or gimmick, like the Eldrad/Vect/Harliestar build for DE. It's still a far cry from saying the book is well-designed for competitive play ( i.e, offers varied, effective builds).
In Boxing matches, you actually get paid to take a dive and make the other guy look good.
In Warhammer 40K, you're expected to pay cash out of your pocket for the privilege of having Marines and IG trample all over your Xenos/Chaos.
NoArmorSave wrote: I will never sell my Daemons, as I love the models. I have spent too much time painting them, and the rules are still playable. As far as GK, I already have around 10K of them, mostly painted.
I play both armies and understand the matchup well. Triple Helldrake is tough until it meets Draigo Wing.
The playtesting I did against daemons was Coteaz, 3 squads of 10x Purifiers with 4x Psycannons each in Chimeras from Acolytes, 6x Acolytes in Psybacks, 3x Psyrifleman, Aegis+Icarus
I understand the love of models. I was just suggesting a way to help keep you from feeling like you need to give up on the hobby.
Look at the list you faced. While that list will tear up a slaanesh assault list, it will be clobbered by any helldrake list. Look at the Bay Area Open results. This was the latest big event, so its the best point of reference we have. 3/10 of the top 10 players had CSM allies or were CSM. Helldrakes are extremely common in tourneys today.
Therefore, would someone bring all those purifiers and Acolytes? Maybe, but odds are they will drop to the bottom tables pretty quickly. Competitive players with GK will be playing draigowing to survive the helldrake spam.
Therefore, your game was a test of worst-matchup for the slaanesh army. Sometimes that can be good so you can learn the weaknesses that you might have! However, you should not be suprised that you were clobbered by it. On the other hand, if your playing in tourneys your probably not going to see that GK army in the hands of a good player. in fact calling the codex 'not competitive' by losing to its worst case matchup thats unlikley does not seem fair, does it?
Either way, it should be food for thought as to what to do. Perhaps all slaanesh is not the way to go. Maybe you need to balance it out with some plaguebearers/horrors to ensure you have some durability to shooting and some shooting of your own. Horrors, for example, will demolish razorbacks every round due to volume of STR 6 shots. Having the invulnerable fateweaver was very strong and would have wrecked havoc on the army you faced (beam attacks across multiple vehicles)
We just don't know yet. The codex has been out for a week!
labmouse42 wrote: ...
Therefore, your game was a test of worst-matchup for the slaanesh army. Sometimes that can be good so you can learn the weaknesses that you might have! However, you should not be suprised that you were clobbered by it. On the other hand, if your playing in tourneys your probably not going to see that GK army in the hands of a good player. in fact calling the codex 'not competitive' by losing to its worst case matchup thats unlikley does not seem fair, does it?
I dunno, some would argue that in a tournament environment where one loss means you're out of the running, having any auto-loss matchup is the definition of non-competitive.
Your missing the point. Almost competitive player will bring that purifier list.
If your not going to take a list because there is a rock to its scissors your never going to play any army! Every army in 40k now has its counter. 6th edition has turned into rock-scissors-paper-lizard-spock.
The trick is to hedge your bets so you have the least number of unfavorable matchups in any one tourney. Odds are pretty good you will see more paladins/helldrakes today than purifiers.
I played against a mixed-god list last night with my Eldar, and I got crushed. His huge squad of Seekers was on my War Walkers and Rangers turn 2, even after I wiped out half of them (would have been more, but Night Fighting...) and took my lunch money.
Nurgle Soulgrinders hiding behind quad-guns with a 2+ cover save are disgusting, so are huge squads of Plaguebearers behind an Aegis.
If you're playing Xenos, deepstriking three-man Flamer squads are still scary, they wiped out most of a Harlequin squad and most of a Ranger squad (would have been all if the Farseer didn't make a bunch of saves).
He did lose a 20-man squad of Daemonettes after I charged them with Eldrad and one Harlequin, killed one model and tanked their saves, then have 20 Daemonettes roll boxcars on Instability and poof away.
The Lord of Change probably would have been scary, but he got in a sissy slapfight with Eldrad for about 6 rounds of combat.
Eldar shenanigans are the best shenanigans! DQ:90S++G+M--B+IPw40k09#+D++A++/areWD-R++T(T)DM+
NoArmorSave wrote: I have ran several test games with the new codex. All in all, it is balanced against the new 6th edition books.
It is not balanced against Grey Knights. Not buy a long shot.
I tested it in 3 games with various configurations against a Coteaz Henchman + Purifier build. It fails miserably. It simply can't deal
with the firepower; even when using Icons+Instruments and hugging cover. 1 turn of shooting is all an optimized GK build needs to do
enough damage that the daemon player really can't recover.
I haven't tested it against Draigo Wing yet, but I don't think it will fare well. It doesn't have an answer to the Paladins in assault, and can't
do much damage to them with shooting.
The codex is really awesome from a 6th edition perspective. Against Chaos Space Marines or Dark Angels it performs fine. It also performs fine against
Orks, Vanilla Marines, & Eldar. Optimized Grey Knight, Necron, Dark Eldar, & IG builds are really bad matchups. The codex simply doesn't have a good answer.
Ouch! It appears that there are several buiids out there the Daemons may have trouble with. DA with the banner of devastating and triple Land Raiders could also be an uphill battle. The same goes for Nids.
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NoArmorSave wrote: I will never sell my Daemons, as I love the models. I have spent too much time painting them, and the rules are still playable. As far as GK, I already have around 10K of them, mostly painted.
I play both armies and understand the matchup well. Triple Helldrake is tough until it meets Draigo Wing.
The playtesting I did against daemons was Coteaz, 3 squads of 10x Purifiers with 4x Psycannons each in Chimeras from Acolytes, 6x Acolytes in Psybacks, 3x Psyrifleman, Aegis+Icarus
I understand the love of models. I was just suggesting a way to help keep you from feeling like you need to give up on the hobby.
Look at the list you faced. While that list will tear up a slaanesh assault list, it will be clobbered by any helldrake list. Look at the Bay Area Open results. This was the latest big event, so its the best point of reference we have. 3/10 of the top 10 players had CSM allies or were CSM. Helldrakes are extremely common in tourneys today.
Therefore, would someone bring all those purifiers and Acolytes? Maybe, but odds are they will drop to the bottom tables pretty quickly. Competitive players with GK will be playing draigowing to survive the helldrake spam.
Therefore, your game was a test of worst-matchup for the slaanesh army. Sometimes that can be good so you can learn the weaknesses that you might have! However, you should not be suprised that you were clobbered by it. On the other hand, if your playing in tourneys your probably not going to see that GK army in the hands of a good player. in fact calling the codex 'not competitive' by losing to its worst case matchup thats unlikley does not seem fair, does it?
Either way, it should be food for thought as to what to do. Perhaps all slaanesh is not the way to go. Maybe you need to balance it out with some plaguebearers/horrors to ensure you have some durability to shooting and some shooting of your own. Horrors, for example, will demolish razorbacks every round due to volume of STR 6 shots. Having the invulnerable fateweaver was very strong and would have wrecked havoc on the army you faced (beam attacks across multiple vehicles)
We just don't know yet. The codex has been out for a week!
Actually, that Purifier list can be very good against Helldrakes. twinlinked Icarus lascannon (thanks to Coteaz Prescience), 16x twinlinked psycannon shots, 32x Psycannon shots, and 12x twinlinked psycannon shots, not to mention the STR6 Psybacks and Multilasers that can glance or
pen on year armour shots. If anything, I think the Purifier list will make a comeback, as Warpquake is not as desperately needed now after the flamer\screamer nerf.
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MandalorynOranj wrote: I played against a mixed-god list last night with my Eldar, and I got crushed. His huge squad of Seekers was on my War Walkers and Rangers turn 2, even after I wiped out half of them (would have been more, but Night Fighting...) and took my lunch money.
Nurgle Soulgrinders hiding behind quad-guns with a 2+ cover save are disgusting, so are huge squads of Plaguebearers behind an Aegis.
If you're playing Xenos, deepstriking three-man Flamer squads are still scary, they wiped out most of a Harlequin squad and most of a Ranger squad (would have been all if the Farseer didn't make a bunch of saves).
He did lose a 20-man squad of Daemonettes after I charged them with Eldrad and one Harlequin, killed one model and tanked their saves, then have 20 Daemonettes roll boxcars on Instability and poof away.
The Lord of Change probably would have been scary, but he got in a sissy slapfight with Eldrad for about 6 rounds of combat.
I think I saw this game. It was on Vassal right?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/11 18:19:05
A previous post said that Daemons should play well against CSM, but what if the CSM army brought Land Raiders?
Triple LR?
I can see there being a problem for Daemons who face any MEQ with an AV 14 vehicle. Especially as the Daemon units who can smash vehicles do that best in melee with the MC's, who all cost a gak ton of points, and can be lascannoned to death.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/11 18:27:58
Selym wrote: A previous post said that Daemons should play well against CSM, but what if the CSM army brought Land Raiders?
Triple LR?
I can see there being a problem for Daemons who face any MEQ with an AV 14 vehicle. Especially as the Daemon units who can smash vehicles do that best in melee with the MC's, who all cost a gak ton of points, and can be lascannoned to death.
Selym wrote: A previous post said that Daemons should play well against CSM, but what if the CSM army brought Land Raiders?
Triple LR?
I can see there being a problem for Daemons who face any MEQ with an AV 14 vehicle. Especially as the Daemon units who can smash vehicles do that best in melee with the MC's, who all cost a gak ton of points, and can be lascannoned to death.
Another thing to consider with the new Daemon Codex is terrain on the table.
If there is a lot of terrain on the table (the way I like to play), than they can be quite strong.
I personally like to play Cities of Death, and I think the new Daemons could really shine in that enviornment.
The biggest weakness of the codex is the inability to handle heavy fire power. It just does too much damage to them, and
they don't have good ways to mitigate it. Lot's of terrain on the table helps with that.
I played a game this weekend with friends. 3 way battle for KP. Warlord and FB gave extra points and wipe off did not matter (could win even if you were off the table)
My opponents were DA, Belial with command squad, Knights, 2 squads termies, one group of bikes and a Vindicator.
and Necrons Nemesor, Obyron, 2 CC lords, 3 spiders + scarabs, Doomsday, Annihilation barge, Teslamortals + Veiltek, Teslamortals + destrotek In NS.
We rolled to see who deployed on start of game one and 1 person would come in random table edge on turn 2
My daemons and the DA were up first.
2 Nette squads reserved everything else on table. Seekers + starting nettes did pull off a 2nd turn assault seekers ended up plowing into Belial and company while nettes smashed into Knights. Belial died first turn of the combat thanks to beguile, Greater Eitherblade, and Warlord trait ID on my Mounted Herald. The command squad did not fair much better. The seekers did not wipe them out first round but there were only 2 left which would b dispatched next round of CC.
The nettes got buffed by invis prior to smashing into the knights. They took much longer to finish off the unit, thanks in most part to the knights 3++, I think it took 3 or 4 rounds of combat to kill off the 5 knights. but the nettes came out relatively unscathed. I think i lost 3 of my original 18.
I only once lost combat the entire game and had to make a DI test...at a 7... which i amazingly passed It was VS the necron player. He had put obyron + 2 cc lords + Nemesor into one unit and they were particularly hard to get rid of. They were also fighting one group of nettes that were by that time about 14 strong. my rending rolls were supremely underwhelming otherwise I believe they would have wiped the unit faster. eventually I was able to knock down all 3 models and not allow him to get back up.
I eventually won our 3 way game, I had one unit of 14 nettes left on the table end of game turn 4 when we called it. the Necrons had only lost the unit with nemesor oby and 2 lords, and the unit of 3 spiders, everything else was on the table. The DA player had been wiped off and had scored 0 points. I had scored 10 and the necron player had scored 7. Being unable to catch up to me in points we decided to call it.
Observations of this game
Heralds are force multipliers is the understatement of the century. Beguile alone on a group of nettes or seekers is awesome!!! give them ML2 and roll on telepathy, If you get invis GREAT this helps with shooting defence AND melee defence (opponent swings at WS1) if you get Puppet master, GREAT Shoot them with their own damn tank, if you get hallucinate, GREAT good chance to either make them hit themselves or stand there looking stupid while your unit tears them appart.
Our Troops are nothing to laugh at. Nettes alone were able to smash termies and knights into the ground as well as the small CC necron unit AND spiders.
Dont Run MSU, Daemon troops (nettes specifically) have always been glass cannon. but now you can take them in numbers enough to actually deliver the blow.
TEQ is wet toilet paper VS Slaanesh, (obvious)
Gun Line offers bigger problems but speed and Invis (luck) can get you into the fight where you are safe from the rest of the army shooting.
Warp Storm sux but adds character. I had bad storm rolls in the 4 turns we played. Tzeench attacks hit nothing, -1 Inv, Calm, Calm. Not nearly as cool or as bothersome as I had anticipated.
Biggest downside is the low LD on heralds meaning your cool powers are not even going to manifest as often as most other psykers
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/11 19:28:50
Also should note, I had paid points for and taken the portal, Which I then completely forgot about. This ended up being a good thing as more small units of daemons would be a very bad thing in a KP game. I should have taken the grimoir and used it every turn.
This brings up the point that randomness can help us. Since rewards are rolled up after mission has been chosen you get to slightly tailor you list to fit not only your opponent but also your mission.
Its not a huge factor, but it is another one to consider
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/11 21:47:17
14000 points 
seekers ended up plowing into Belial and company while nettes smashed into Knights. Belial died first turn of the combat thanks to beguile, Greater Eitherblade, and Warlord trait 
