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Experiment 626 wrote:

Stoupe wrote:
It's only too chaotic for the tournament, competitive players.

You say that now!

Wait to see how much butthurt you'll feel after getting thumped silly by;
- Lv4 LoC w/Wand of Whimsy
- HoN BSB w/Lesser Locus of Virulence
- 2-3x Plaguebearer hordes
- 2x Skullcannons

Oh Daemons of Chaos, cheese is truely still thy name!


I honestly am expecting most tournies to ban the Wand and put a 0-1 limit on Skullcannons... (Hell, the Wand has the potential to easily be far, far worse than the old Dark Insanity Bloodthirsters of the previous book.)


It's simply a case of insteasd of most every unit being an outright beatstick, this time round, units are either crap or else still absolutely filthy beatsticks of DOOOOOOOOOM!

Why would you need a 0-1 on the cannon? Its a cannon... Empire and dwarves have them too. Its a moving cannon that can fight in CC.

This book is far from cheesy and I think its going to be fun and random. So they have a few good units and combos (as you posted). Would you rather they had nothing and the whole entire book sucked? Yes that would be way better. I hate salty people when armies get new cool stuff...

 Icelord wrote:

Why would you need a 0-1 on the cannon? Its a cannon... Empire and dwarves have them too. Its a moving cannon that can fight in CC.

This book is far from cheesy and I think its going to be fun and random. So they have a few good units and combos (as you posted). Would you rather they had nothing and the whole entire book sucked? Yes that would be way better. I hate salty people when armies get new cool stuff...

Of corse I don't want to see Daemons nerfed into the ground and then some.

The point I was aiming at is that someone claimed "Daemons are too random for serious tourny/competitive play". I pointed out that they are far from uncompetitive and that in fact, their likely main tourny/competitive build is absolutely brutal. (right up there with the best of 'em in all likelyhood)
I expect a number of tournies, (espeically the ETC), to impose a 0-1 limit on the new Skullcannon because it's easily the best cannon in the game! Not quite as outright resiliant as the Ogres one, but it comes with a ward save, can regain wounds AND has the Flaming Attacks rule meaning it's a beatstick to alot more monsters than say, the Empire cannon. Seriously, the thing is easily undercosted by a good amount and removes one of the Daemons old weaknesses. (lack of strong shooting)

And of corse, it won't stick to being just a competitive tourny list, because donkeycaves will abuse the hell out of it outside of tournaments.
And thus it will lead to massive butthurt and the inevitible cries that Daemons are still a broken as all filth army.

Yes Daemons are random. But they're far from underpowered or even reletively balanced like most people had hoped for.

So I've played a couple games with my daemons. And ive seen one of the other players at my local store play a game with his mono khorne. My thoughts on the daemons

Pros/cool things theyve done for the army

-gift selection is random but kinda cool I like it and at least you get a fall back selection
-damon princes are a great choice for lords when you don't want to blow your load in a greater daemon and they are plenty effective

Cons...

- first khorne as a whole has been donky kicked out the back door. Evrything khorne took a str hit, crushers took a 2 point hit ontop of losing an attack? Call me crazy but tgat is a sad excuse for a 65 point model MC or not lol and the brass behrmoth only gives 2 armor not 3. The only thing bloodletters had was their ability to hit hard and that has now been taken from them oh ya and now they cost 14?! Ouch sorry khorne looks like we will leave the fighting to all the other gods this edition

- tzeentch.....the new locus for tzeenthch are basically really good sometimes for close combat and all the tzeentch items in the book are weapons... I'm sorry when was the last time I wanted my wizard to be in close combat?! (Except chaos vamp n temple gaurd slann) ya never! Escpecially when horros no longer can have a bonus to their ward with the herald. What in the blue hell makes anyone think I want my 3s across the board to jump into combat at 13 points a dam guy with nothing more than a 5+ for a save?! Not to mention the staff of change smacks your own guys too!

- um quick question matt ward. Where the hell did our dispel scroll go? Seeing as how the cheapest level four wizard we can have naked is a large target sitting at about 390 pts... only about double what everyone elses is minus millenia old toads

-thank you again for nutering skull taker. Yes he needed to be more expensive no sarcasm I actually agree with that. However making his scaryness come from his weapon....weak.

-daemic gifts is a fancy way of saying magic items.....awesome I guess. I love that these can be taken away from me now.

- that's cool daemons didn't use any of their banners in the last book or anything your right we shouldn't have any....

-6+ sacly skin is a slap in the face... in what way are we suppose to use that? And now that we have it we camt even benefit fully from glittering robes if we take a tzeentch wiz with lore of metal to help buff our protection a bit better

- herald are heroes.... why you make them cost so much?!. Nurgle and slaanesh are ok upgrades are reasonable price herald is only 90 but to have 3 khorne heralds is going to run close to 600 points?! Or just over. Wow my children are foing to feel that swift kick to the balls

-karanak is a hero both a badass now and a hero choice. He's so expensive why couldn't you just leave him a unit upgrade our heroes already rape us for points when we arent looking

-lastly. This little hump you 3 times out of 4 table we got.... thank you for minimizing army diversity (cause you didn't already by not being aloud to use your general n bsb) but now I melt my own units... also why is this lasting through another winds if magic by your logic the winds are changing on my opponenta turn so if I get a minus 1 ward save I get to try and deal with that for not one but two rounds of combat?! That right there will have any daemon armt cut in half by literally anything.


So I'm not going tonlir there is a lot of negativity coming from me lol I played my daemons wanted to give them a chance and not only did the army play the way I thought it would but worse. Bloodletters got shitpumped with their lack luster strength tzeentch got beaten at their game of combat who new with all their close quarters prowess inthe new book. And my unit of 18 flesh hounds were subject to the wrath of Slaanesh cutting them down to a managable size in which a unit of bestigors could eat them. I also watched in another game as 25 empire halbediers taught 20 bloodletters and thier herald hiw to properly give a beat down.. from what I can tell slaanesh and nurgle are still decent they took very little in the way of hits, khorne and tzeentch would now be a fantastic pair up for wood elves everyone can stand around an watch the saddest alap fight of the century. And the more colour ful your daemon army the less spit your opponent will use when they bend you over the table.

I will give my daemons another chance at redemption before I give them a photoshoot and pricetag. Or at least tilk the faq comes out and says we are sorry and the gentleman who wrote the book has been moved to the sculpting department of gw


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh ya I forgot to mention those of you playing khorne or nurgle be prepared to see the star dragon null stone back in action nutering your army all at once lol and jow skulltaker cant even save you from that.

Well looks like we got both sides of the "Daemons are broken" argument

Broken OP and Broken UP

Mountain-Breaker wrote:
I didnt really think Daemons could become anymore broken. I was really hoping they would become balanced like Warriors of Chaos, but that was a false hope.

 kenshin620 wrote:
Well looks like we got both sides of the "Daemons are broken" argument

Broken OP and Broken UP

Usually a good sign for being reasonably balanced.

I still have nightmares of 7th... I don't want to see them be brokenly useless, but man. They were kinda silly.

 Evertras wrote:

 kenshin620 wrote:
Well looks like we got both sides of the "Daemons are broken" argument

Broken OP and Broken UP

Usually a good sign for being reasonably balanced.

I still have nightmares of 7th... I don't want to see them be brokenly useless, but man. They were kinda silly.

Its like WoC all over again!

"Oh noes marauders and chosen are useless!!!!"

and then

"Wtf Chimeras and Gorebeast Chariots and Daemon Princes sprouting like daisies!"


Though imo 7th problem was mainly due to Fear being actually terrifying to have an entire army of (similar to VC), while simultaneously ignoring psychology

That and uncapped Tzeentch magic/Power Dice.......

I defy anyone to say or prove that Tz isn't terrible. At magic certainly, and at combat, sorta.

Khorne I think isn't as bad as all that. Bloodcrushers have the same armor they did before, because bloodletters are 6+. They have the same # attacks, it's just one isn't KB at Str6 but Str5.

You can give Core troops both a locus and a magic banner. Though oddly @ 25 pts, which none exist. So you could give bloodletters Frenzy and flaming attacks.

Nvm, wrong book

nvm, he had the wrong book

DukeRustfield wrote:

You can give Core troops both a locus and a magic banner. Though oddly @ 25 pts, which none exist. So you could give bloodletters Frenzy and flaming attacks.

I do admit I am sadden by the removal of daemon magic items besides weapons and enchanted

All dem magic standards people used

(And then they FAQ they could only be taken one per arm )

DukeRustfield wrote:
I defy anyone to say or prove that Tz isn't terrible. At magic certainly, and at combat, sorta.

Khorne I think isn't as bad as all that. Bloodcrushers have the same armor they did before, because bloodletters are 6+. They have the same # attacks, it's just one isn't KB at Str6 but Str5.

You can give Core troops both a locus and a magic banner. Though oddly @ 25 pts, which none exist. So you could give bloodletters Frenzy and flaming attacks.

Flaming banner doesn't give flaming to magic weapons, like the helblade. Gotta move flaming banner over to daemonettes.

The magic being mostly offensive is ok, however it's cheap to cast. Too bad you don't have anything like a hierotitan to help like the blue horror crew upgrade should have.

WoC has exactly the same magic at the same costs. Let me ask you, who has better casters/items/gifts for wizards?

DukeRustfield wrote:
WoC has exactly the same magic at the same costs. Let me ask you, who has better casters/items/gifts for wizards?

It actually kind of depends

Spell Familiar is quite nice, though Wand of Whimsy can make your LoC make Blood Thirsters cry. WoC can get a much cheaper lvl 4, not to mention an unkillable tzeentch sorcerer, but then again you could make some new daemons pop out which is always nice to have with some good rolls


Though Prince wise a Nurgle WoC one is hands down better. Get Soul Eater, Chaos armor, Enchanted Shield, and maybe a few other things on him and he could be just as good, if not better than a GUO if you ace some rolls

 kenshin620 wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:
WoC has exactly the same magic at the same costs. Let me ask you, who has better casters/items/gifts for wizards?

It actually kind of depends

Spell Familiar is quite nice, though Wand of Whimsy can make your LoC make Blood Thirsters cry. WoC can get a much cheaper lvl 4, not to mention an unkillable tzeentch sorcerer, but then again you could make some new daemons pop out which is always nice to have with some good rolls


Though Prince wise a Nurgle WoC one is hands down better. Get Soul Eater, Chaos armor, Enchanted Shield, and maybe a few other things on him and he could be just as good, if not better than a GUO if you ace some rolls

Chaos Armor + Scaled Skin + Charmed Shield = 1+ armor save and one dud cannonball on the way to combat, for the record.

 Evertras wrote:

 kenshin620 wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:
WoC has exactly the same magic at the same costs. Let me ask you, who has better casters/items/gifts for wizards?

It actually kind of depends

Spell Familiar is quite nice, though Wand of Whimsy can make your LoC make Blood Thirsters cry. WoC can get a much cheaper lvl 4, not to mention an unkillable tzeentch sorcerer, but then again you could make some new daemons pop out which is always nice to have with some good rolls


Though Prince wise a Nurgle WoC one is hands down better. Get Soul Eater, Chaos armor, Enchanted Shield, and maybe a few other things on him and he could be just as good, if not better than a GUO if you ace some rolls

Chaos Armor + Scaled Skin + Charmed Shield = 1+ armor save and one dud cannonball on the way to combat, for the record.

He can get a 3+ ward that rerolls 1s, that will show those cannons.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Evertras wrote:

 kenshin620 wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:
WoC has exactly the same magic at the same costs. Let me ask you, who has better casters/items/gifts for wizards?

It actually kind of depends

Spell Familiar is quite nice, though Wand of Whimsy can make your LoC make Blood Thirsters cry. WoC can get a much cheaper lvl 4, not to mention an unkillable tzeentch sorcerer, but then again you could make some new daemons pop out which is always nice to have with some good rolls


Though Prince wise a Nurgle WoC one is hands down better. Get Soul Eater, Chaos armor, Enchanted Shield, and maybe a few other things on him and he could be just as good, if not better than a GUO if you ace some rolls

Chaos Armor + Scaled Skin + Charmed Shield = 1+ armor save and one dud cannonball on the way to combat, for the record.

He can get a 3+ ward that rerolls 1s, that will show those cannons.

That's with MoT, not Nurgle, as stated in the quote. Nurgle can't get that.

Right,

Which is why its probably better to go with MoT.

Actually, thinking about it, in a WoC prince you cannot get that 3+ ward at all. You can't afford it with the 25 points of magic items allowed. You could get 4+ ward naturally with rerolled 1s, but I'd rather not count on that.

In any case. My point is that the entire army of the god of magic, who are all immortal and composed of magic, is worse at magic than the mortals they throw scraps to.

Yes, a LoC can become killy. If I wanted to be Killy I would use, I don't know, KHORNE? Tzeentch states over and over they are about magic. Almost nothing about them is magic-related.

And as someone else pointed out: what's the difference between a Horror and an empire Swordsman? The swordsman is +1WS 6+ armor 6+parry. Horror is Daemonic (fear, magic atks, unstable, 5+ ward). It's a lvl1 -3 caster (and if you have multiple units they will only have signature spell). Oh, and it costs 186% MORE! Durka?

 Icelord wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Stoupe wrote:
It's only too chaotic for the tournament, competitive players.

You say that now!

Wait to see how much butthurt you'll feel after getting thumped silly by;
- Lv4 LoC w/Wand of Whimsy
- HoN BSB w/Lesser Locus of Virulence
- 2-3x Plaguebearer hordes
- 2x Skullcannons

Oh Daemons of Chaos, cheese is truely still thy name!


I honestly am expecting most tournies to ban the Wand and put a 0-1 limit on Skullcannons... (Hell, the Wand has the potential to easily be far, far worse than the old Dark Insanity Bloodthirsters of the previous book.)


It's simply a case of insteasd of most every unit being an outright beatstick, this time round, units are either crap or else still absolutely filthy beatsticks of DOOOOOOOOOM!

Why would you need a 0-1 on the cannon? Its a cannon... Empire and dwarves have them too. Its a moving cannon that can fight in CC.

This book is far from cheesy and I think its going to be fun and random. So they have a few good units and combos (as you posted). Would you rather they had nothing and the whole entire book sucked? Yes that would be way better. I hate salty people when armies get new cool stuff...

0-1 Cannons because its a S10 no penalty Cannon Chariot with D6 wounds flaming attacks, crewed by two Bloodletters. It is ridiculous toclaim that Dwarves and Empire do also. Of course they do, they are supposd to. It just takes a Hero choice and a loaded Special choice to even come close how good the Daemons cannon is, but at 2x the cost.

Also what the heck is 40k doing in Fantasy?! Summoning fortifications? Deep striking units? Crazy cannons and Soul Grinders?
Okay the Cannon, I can handle. But really.

i got 2 pages in on this one...and saw mat wards name on the bottom. at that point i lost all faith in what could have been... i figured it would either be a pretentious piece of overpowered garbage...but also realized this is not a space marine codex - so likley the opposite. and i was right.

i especially love how, its pretty much a suicide move to include more then 1 god in your list, take any casters, but all the pictures have the 4 diff gods all lined up side by side....

i want my money back for this piece of gak.