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 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
But the difference here is that is not propaganda but actual historical events as we as the 3'rd person ( read: readers of the story ) can actually see what happened. We also have the proof that they are much more powerful than grater daemons - Sanguinius broke back of Ka'Bandha - who is described as described as the mightiest of Khorne's servants ( codex: Blood Angels p. 18 ) and Fulgrim who chocked Avatar of Khaine to death with his bare hands ( Fulgrim ).

As I said I view things from the perspective of the 40k era, not from the era when it may have happened, when much has been forgotten and what is remembered is distorted & bloated with the telling over so many thousands of years. Yes it may have happened but when you look at it from the perspective of the 41st millenium, did it really happen that way or is it just propaganda to help bolster faith in the God-Emperor?

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
But this is pointless, people who think that Primarchs are weak will always think that even if GW themselves state that they are as powerful as gods and indestructible as black holes. People can have their own opinion on the matter but please do not place your personal opinion against other one's personal opinion - especially if fluff always go in the way of other one's personal opinon ( the one that says that Primarchs are living Gods ).

I didn't say they were weak. I said they were not on par with Greater Daemons, the very physical manifestation of the most powerful Gods in the Warp - but then interpretation on the power of a Greater Daemon depends on your personal viewpoint and I see them as perhaps the most powerful entities that can be brought forth into the physical realm and when, on the very rare occasions, they manifest they're near unstoppable.

 Smacks wrote:
Which is essentially him copping out and refusing to commit to anything, in the event of bad continuity or things being revised. However since this board is about fluff. I think we need to accept the cannon as being truth, in order to discuss it. To turn up and say 'it's all lies' undermines the whole idea.

GW have -always- said it's about personal interpretation and people being able to accept or reject what they wish. There is no 'cannon', there is just the setting & what people make of it.

GW fluff is contradictory. All of it cannot be true at same time. Some of it has to be lies and legends.

Evileyes wrote:I don't mean to start a flame war, but I think this is simply the kind of thing, you open to interpretation. Some will say the primarch's are protected by luck, reflexes, and plot armour like me, because it makes them that much cooler when they still kick so much ass, despite not being immortal and indestructable.

Other's, will say that primarch's are essentially super saiyan. who can slap aside tankrounds, armwrestle with bloodthirsters, and carve through standard marines as if they were grot's

I personally find this interpretation well over the top, but if you like it, more power to you. This hobby is about enjoying it, and if that means different interpretations of the fluff, so be it

Re-quoting for emphasis.

Maybe this would help stop the 'real vs. myth', 'BL vs. IA' debates that we keep repeating.

For my 1000th post... And furthering the discussions about personal interpretation, I have a complete counter view.

I believe Ullanor was a set up. The Emperor was planning on leaving the Great Crusade and for the Crusade to continue properly, he needed all the legions to have complete, unwavering faith in his successor. Therefore, he engineers a situation against a suitable intimidating, yet common and easily recognisable foe - orks, led by a gigantic warboss, the largest warboss ever. He then creates a cirumstance where it appears his life is in grave danger and it seems that even he is about to be overwhelmed. Yet, what's the only way to save him? The actions of his future Warmaster.

The Warmaster "saves" him, so, in future, any marines who have doubts, perhaps think that they've been overlooked, can be quite reasonably countered with. "Ah, but Horus saved The Emperors life on Ullanor."

That seems to be a reasonable Gambit Roulette from The Emperor but also keeps the biggest irony of the heresy. He could never fathom Horus would turn on Him.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
People have tried.

People have failed.

I guess you missed the part about "I'm a main character and can't die until the story says so"? The fact that the emperor and primarchs survived has nothing to do with their durability, it has to do with them being main characters that can't die yet because they're important to the story. The exact same thing would happen in a book with a normal guardsman as the main character, and I don't think anyone is ever going to claim that guardsmen are invulnerable.

On the other hand, if you copy the primarchs into an alternate universe where the events have no impact on the main-universe story and put them on a random battlefield they're dead as soon as someone identifies them as enemy leaders and grabs an anti-tank missile/artillery barrage/orbital bombardment/nuclear weapon/etc.

Agreed most books have such poor "plot armour" it hurts. I think the best example of negating this is the Fire and Ice (game of thrones) series.

 Compel wrote:
For my 1000th post... And furthering the discussions about personal interpretation, I have a complete counter view.

I believe Ullanor was a set up. The Emperor was planning on leaving the Great Crusade and for the Crusade to continue properly, he needed all the legions to have complete, unwavering faith in his successor. Therefore, he engineers a situation against a suitable intimidating, yet common and easily recognisable foe - orks, led by a gigantic warboss, the largest warboss ever. He then creates a cirumstance where it appears his life is in grave danger and it seems that even he is about to be overwhelmed. Yet, what's the only way to save him? The actions of his future Warmaster.

The Warmaster "saves" him, so, in future, any marines who have doubts, perhaps think that they've been overlooked, can be quite reasonably countered with. "Ah, but Horus saved The Emperors life on Ullanor."

That seems to be a reasonable Gambit Roulette from The Emperor but also keeps the biggest irony of the heresy. He could never fathom Horus would turn on Him.

I think that's a really, really cool idea - and happy 1000th - but IIRC the Betrayal fluff about the Emperor/Ork thing has it taking place on an asteroid, rather than Ullanor.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
It isn't plot armour if it is consistent.

Nonsense. If you have a guardsman as the main character in a long series they're going to have consistent plot armor. It doesn't mean that guardsmen are invulnerable.

The point being made is essentially that if all guardsmen can get their arm cut off, and manage to not bleed to death due to being HUMAN (not grots or some other weakling), and then the main character guardsman gets his arm cut off, and survives, that is NOT plot armour, because it's consistent with the entire species type (note: SM's are their own species, and so are primarchs).

On the origional subject of the Ork coming close to killing the Emperor...why not? Since the fluff of the 40k game is most often told from the perspective of Mankind, of course you are going to have propaganda about how the Emperor is the most powerful being in the known universe. Of course you are going to have more propagand saying the Primarchs were god like beings that were almost unstoppable.

But it is written 10,000 years after the fact. The 6th edition rule book even says a lot of the stuff may just be rumors and legends and it is hard to tell what is truth and what is merely myth.

Besides, why is it that only the forces of the Imperium can have super powered beings? Can't Orks have super powered beings too? Why is that Ork warboss thought of by many as just an ordinary Warboss? Who's to say he wasn't one of the galaxy's most powerful beings and the emperor barely escaped with his life?

People need to stop acting like the Primarchs are unstoppable beings that can't be killed by anything or anyone. They obviously can and could. And the Emperor is no different. Proof? Emperor was killed by Horus. Night Haunter was killed by an Imperial Assassin.

Yes. This is simple physics here,

No, it is not, and do not abuse this phrase.

Physics doesn't differentiate between meat and tank armour, what physics cares about his density, hardness, brittleness, malleability, conductivity, tensile strength, compressive strength, ect.

And Primarch flesh pretty clearly surpasses most tank armour in hardness, tensile and compressive strength, and remains malleable enough to allow them to move without cracking.

Pro-tip, Superman is made of meat. Fiction doesn't care, fictional meat is hardcore.

As wisely noted already, fluff is malleable and everyone is free to believe what they want. However, I personally prefer Primarchs not to be some comic book superheroes that are immune to bullets and even missiles. To me that kind of thing just seems juvenile. And luckily FW seems to agree, even though their Primarchs have slightly better stats than I would've given them, they still can be killed by massed bolter fire (granted, gakloads of bolter fire.)

Honestly, im with the people saying it's all about interpretation. Remember that a lot of these books are written from the Imperial perspective, and BL editors have come out and said that a lot of it is exaggerated because the IoM doesn't want to make their heroes look weak.

Also, if the main character (in this case a Primarch or The Emperor) was shot and killed in the first battle in the book, it would be a pretty sucky book.

 Smacks wrote:
I read that Horus once saved the Emperor's life on the planet Gorro, when he hacked the arm off a frenzied Ork that was trying to choke the life out of the Emperor...

Does this strike anyone else as odd? The god Emperor of mankind. Immortal conqueror of worlds, most powerful psychic in the galaxy, who single-handedly bested every primarch? Choked to to death by random ork? Could he really have been in that much mortal danger?

I've read the last couple of pages, with the various merits on powers of primarchs, the emperor and greater daemons.

What noone is really looking at is the Ork.

They don't have an upper limit, there is no ceiling on how big and powerful an ork can grow, they tend to be limited simply by lifespan being short due to ongoing conflict and eventually running out of luck.

In the times before, with the necrons slumbering, the eldar empire collapsing inwards, the tyranids an unknown, the tau not yet walking upright, the Orks would have conquered unchecked, there was no civilization mighty enough to give them serious pause.

The orks would have found conflict anywhere they wanted and kept on ploughing through opponents, so they would have grown and thrived. Ghaz now can give a greater daemon a serious run for it's money, it's hardly a stretch to imagine similar or greater orks at that time being more abundant and one of them, cranked up to 11 with Waaagh power, mopping the floor with the big E.

Everyone here is so concerned with the relative merits of each primarch, daemon, the emperor, the daemon primarchs... noone's just asking 'can an ork, in the right conditions, become that powerful' and the answer, provided on plenty of occasions is 'yes'.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Smacks wrote:
I read that Horus once saved the Emperor's life on the planet Gorro, when he hacked the arm off a frenzied Ork that was trying to choke the life out of the Emperor...

Does this strike anyone else as odd? The god Emperor of mankind. Immortal conqueror of worlds, most powerful psychic in the galaxy, who single-handedly bested every primarch? Choked to to death by random ork? Could he really have been in that much mortal danger?

I've read the last couple of pages, with the various merits on powers of primarchs, the emperor and greater daemons.

What noone is really looking at is the Ork.

They don't have an upper limit, there is no ceiling on how big and powerful an ork can grow, they tend to be limited simply by lifespan being short due to ongoing conflict and eventually running out of luck.

In the times before, with the necrons slumbering, the eldar empire collapsing inwards, the tyranids an unknown, the tau not yet walking upright, the Orks would have conquered unchecked, there was no civilization mighty enough to give them serious pause.

The orks would have found conflict anywhere they wanted and kept on ploughing through opponents, so they would have grown and thrived. Ghaz now can give a greater daemon a serious run for it's money, it's hardly a stretch to imagine similar or greater orks at that time being more abundant and one of them, cranked up to 11 with Waaagh power, mopping the floor with the big E.

Everyone here is so concerned with the relative merits of each primarch, daemon, the emperor, the daemon primarchs... noone's just asking 'can an ork, in the right conditions, become that powerful' and the answer, provided on plenty of occasions is 'yes'.

This is true, due to the Ork race's genetics, the more experienced an ork is, the larger and stronger they become. It is also possible for battle experience to drill tactics and martial skills into an ork. Give an ork several hundred years, and that thing's going to be a friggin' MC, crushing all in it's path, and be an utter bitch to stop. (Ghazkhull being the modern example, even IOM fluff states he's 20ft tall, and slaughtered nigh-everything he met on armageddon).

Void__Dragon wrote:I think that any battle requiring a Primarch leading the charge into combat isn't going to be just some random ass ship with normal troops.

But that's what the background suggests - by omitting anything special about it. Surely you have read about the circumstances of Dorn's last fight, and that the Chaos vessel "Sword of Sacrilege" was just one of many in a fleet which the Imperial Fists tried to board in a series of hit&run actions to give their outnumbered strike cruisers a chance?

It may also be of note that the second wave of Dorn's Marines were able to successfully capture that ship, which is how they were able to recover his remains after all - so if there really were "a hundred lascannons" installed on that small bridge as you suggest, apparently they've all been removed in the short time it took the remaining Imperial Fists to arrive.

Void__Dragon wrote:Or the description of Ferrus Manus's life (Which I'll admit very likely is a lot of hyperbole, more than most examples). Or the fight between Russ and Magnus. Or Konrad Curze surviving a plummet through Nostramo. Or Leman Russ landing in a volcano. Or Mortarion being hit by a tank-mounted plasma cannon, and proceeding to tear the tank apart. All of this occurred outside of a novel. Where is your contradictory fluff on the physical capabilities of the Primarchs now?

You are still taking all that word for word?
We already had this debate before: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/499171.page#5154127

I still think you're taking that stuff way too literal - just like in that other thread where you tried to defend the realism behind a Space Marine literally taking a millionth of a second to stab another guy because that's what it said in the novel.

Honestly, if you absolutely want to delve into such a "hyper-emphasised" version of the setting, knock yourself out - as mentioned, neither of us can be wrong here. I still think it's a bit silly, but that is of course merely a matter of personal preferences.

Void__Dragon wrote:Also, name the instances within the Horus Heresy where Space Marine height is wildly contradicted.

I'll leave that to the people who actually read it - but I do know that the HH novels apparently cannot even decide on a Primarch's hair colour.

Smacks wrote:Which is essentially him copping out and refusing to commit to anything, in the event of bad continuity or things being revised. However since this board is about fluff. I think we need to accept the cannon as being truth, in order to discuss it. To turn up and say 'it's all lies' undermines the whole idea.

This is 40k - we have no "canon" here. We cannot just pretend because then we'd spend half our time debating which of the many conflicting accounts and contradictory books we should go by.

Yes, it really sucks for discussions about the background, but them's the breaks. For what it's worth, most of the time we still manage to find some sort of common ground, although that depends greatly on what level of detail we'd be talking to.
It's why I tend to phrase most of my posts regarding the fluff more like suggestions ("well in GW's books it says that [...]") or questions ("don't you think that [...]") rather than attempting to state facts. Not always, but it is something I try to keep in mind.

Crimson wrote:And luckily FW seems to agree, even though their Primarchs have slightly better stats than I would've given them, they still can be killed by massed bolter fire (granted, gakloads of bolter fire.)

I've not seen FW's stats for them yet. Are they better than what GW gave Angron?

Crimson wrote:Oh god, I hate this BL crap! Yes, in the past we had stories about Primarchs doing crazy things. Usually they were represented as legends from distant past and could be regarded as such to be be mythical representations of events. Now HH books have taken all that literally, and written Primarchs to be some lame superheroes that punch tanks and have bulletproof skin.

This, so much.

[edit] Also, what MeanGreenStompa said.

Are they better than what GW gave Angron?

"Angron was one of the superhuman Space Marine
Primarchs created by the Emperor of Mankind in an effort
to battle against the tide of Chaos."

From your own source.

Fluff > Gameplay abstractions.

 ScreamPaste wrote:

"Angron was one of the superhuman Space Marine
Primarchs created by the Emperor of Mankind in an effort
to battle against the tide of Chaos."

From your own source.

Fluff > Gameplay abstractions.

Every Space Marine is superhuman...

I don't think anyone ever disputed that all Space Marines are superhuman.

You are missing the point of the discussion.

Also, by how much the fluff and the gameplay actually differ or one overrides the other is debatable, chiefly because the fluff itself is so conflicted and intentionally does not seek to present a single universal truth, as much as some fans like to perceive it as such.
At the end of the day, I stand by the point that TT stats are, in comparison, the most objective resource we have simply because the TT does not have a protagonist, and because it's the tabletop around which the fluff was written, not the other way around.
That doesn't change that the tabletop is full of abstractions, but it is a very convenient method to gauge what is supposed to be close to, better than or weaker than X.

[edit] ninja'd by Crimson

At the end of the day, I stand by the point that TT stats are, in comparison, the most objective resource we have simply because the TT does not have a protagonist, and because it's the tabletop around which the fluff was written, not the other way around.

The Table Top fails spectacularly to represent a great many things in it's stats very well because it needs to be relatively balanced.

For example, Shadow in the Warp precedes the Tyranids by lightyears, and on the table top it's a measly 12 inches. Not representitive of the actual SiTW.

Deathstrike missiles can destabilize the crust of a planet, only hit an area the size of a large blast marker on the table top. Not representative of the actual deathstrike missile.

The aforementioned missile is considered ineffective against some titans, yet on the table top, none have the all around armour 14 of a landraider.

It goes on and on, gameplay abstractions will never be able to accurately represent what we're looking for here, because gameplay abstractions are meant to be fair.

 Lynata wrote:
I've not seen FW's stats for them yet. Are they better than what GW gave Angron?

Better in what way?

Funnily enough Betrayal Angron statline is pretty similar to that Daemon Angron statline. Daemon has one point better BS, and WS, worse ini and save, otherwise it is the same. Obviously turning in to a huge monstrous creature did not actually make him any stronger or tougher... Daemonhood is clearly not what it is cracked up to be.

FW Primarchs have one point too much of S, T and W for my liking, but on the other hand existence of such characters as Mephiston and Cassius* kinda forces them to give Primarchs better stats.

(What's wrong with 5; why when someone needs to be stronger or tougher than regular marines stats jump straight to 6? I blame Ward. I blame him for everything.)

I think we disagree on the disparity between Primarchs and regular marines, Crimson, I'm kind of surprised the Primarchs didn't hit 7, lol.

A carnifex will not physically compete with a Primarch, and those can survive exterminatus just by hunkering down, and snap wraithbone spires like toothpicks.

 ScreamPaste wrote:
I think we disagree on the disparity between Primarchs and regular marines, Crimson, I'm kind of surprised the Primarchs didn't hit 7, lol.

A carnifex will not physically compete with a Primarch, and those can survive exterminatus just by hunkering down, and snap wraithbone spires like toothpicks.

Actually, I think the reason why primarchs seem so powerful is in a large part due to their martial skill. Any man could kill 10 others in a pub brawl if he is skilled enough, and the same concept applies to the primarchs. What a lot of people seem to be forgetting is that the Primarchs weren't gods at all, they could be blown apart fairly easily with the right weapons. But they wore artificer armour (making them tougher than a tank), they had the martial skill to best a hundred men in CC, not simply infinite strength.
Thier power in the HH series is a mix of being slightly genetically superior to a normal SM, skilled enough in combat to fight things successfully, tactical geniuses to avoid being shot at by orbital bombardment, and having the best tech ever made by mankind.

They are not superman. They are not indestructible. They are only slightly magical (only if the're psykers). They, and presumably the emperor, as he made them out of his own DNA, could be given a run for their money by a warboss who's bigger and stronger than they are.

Any man could kill 10 others in a pub brawl if he is skilled enough,

Not if they're physically comparable to him and aren't mentally deficient. :/

the Primarchs weren't gods at all,

I'm not at all saying Sanguinius should snap Khorne's back.

they could be blown apart fairly easily with the right weapons

This is never shown or even implied. In fact, there are occasions where the primarchs are hit with some rather nasty weapons with out being blown apart. Mortarian taking anti tank weaponry without being effected comes to mind, and IIRC another Primarch survived being shot with a macro cannon.

I'm not claiming they're invincible, just very durable.

And actually, as infants the primarchs survived some insane things as well, like crashing through the crust of a planet made primarily of adamantine, or on death worlds where the monsters killed large numbers of grown men in power armour single handedly, or landing in volcanoes, it goes on, lol.

 ScreamPaste wrote:

Any man could kill 10 others in a pub brawl if he is skilled enough,

Not if they're physically comparable to him and aren't mentally deficient. :/

the Primarchs weren't gods at all,

I'm not at all saying Sanguinius should snap Khorne's back.

they could be blown apart fairly easily with the right weapons

This is never shown or even implied. In fact, there are occasions where the primarchs are hit with some rather nasty weapons with out being blown apart. Mortarian taking anti tank weaponry without being effected comes to mind, and IIRC another Primarch survived being shot with a macro cannon.

I'm not claiming they're invincible, just very durable.

And actually, as infants the primarchs survived some insane things as well, like crashing through the crust of a planet made primarily of adamantine, or on death worlds where the monsters killed large numbers of grown men in power armour single handedly, or landing in volcanoes, it goes on, lol.

At this point, I shall look at BL fluff and facepalm. You have a good point, but if someone were to utterly destroy the planet a primarch was on, he would most probably die. (But, then again, there is plot armour, so something would probably save them...).

 ScreamPaste wrote:

Any man could kill 10 others in a pub brawl if he is skilled enough,

Not if they're physically comparable to him and aren't mentally deficient. :/

the Primarchs weren't gods at all,

I'm not at all saying Sanguinius should snap Khorne's back.

they could be blown apart fairly easily with the right weapons

This is never shown or even implied. In fact, there are occasions where the primarchs are hit with some rather nasty weapons with out being blown apart. Mortarian taking anti tank weaponry without being effected comes to mind, and IIRC another Primarch survived being shot with a macro cannon.

I'm not claiming they're invincible, just very durable.

And actually, as infants the primarchs survived some insane things as well, like crashing through the crust of a planet made primarily of adamantine, or on death worlds where the monsters killed large numbers of grown men in power armour single handedly, or landing in volcanoes, it goes on, lol.

I would like to point out that a lot of this is RUMOR, even if it is in a horus heresy novel. Like the main rulebook says, it could be true or it could be myth. No one knows and the guys from the chaos side of things can't be trusted to tell the truth.

On another point, didn't Mortarion take that anti-tank weaponry to the face AFTER he became a Daemon Prince? Because that surely makes a difference.

Didn't Lion fight Luther rather evenly, even though Luther was basically just a normal Chaos Marine, if even that? (IIRC, he was too old to get proper geneseed, so they just used some bionics or something like that.)

Dorn was killed by normal CSM, Curze by an assassin.

Some things are too consistent across sources to be rumour. Sanguinius physically dominating a greater daemon comes to mind.

As for the Mortarion thing, I do not believe so, as it was during the HH.

Edit: The above is at Roadkill.

@Crimson

IIRC, Luther was amped by Chaos when that occured.

Curze allowed himself to be killed, and I have nothing to say on Dorn as what actually happened there is speculation.

What certainly happened that Sanguinius defeated a mighty Khornate Daemon. He may have even snapped it's back. This does not mean that he was stronger than a Bloodthirster, merely that he was really skilled and possibly quite lucky.

Either way it doesn't matter as it shows that there are forces in the galaxy that can and have killed both the Emperor and the Primarchs. So why not an Ork?

And a million voices from every direction claiming something as true doesn't make it so. Evidenced by both the modern day internet and people's belief of the world being flat in the middle ages.

 ScreamPaste wrote:

IIRC, Luther was amped by Chaos when that occured.

Yes, just like every a bit more experienced chaos marine. Even if we accept that he was a really powerful chaos marine, this basically means that a CSM lord fought Primarch on equal terms.

Curze allowed himself to be killed, and I have nothing to say on Dorn as what actually happened there is speculation.

How can he allow himself to be killed if he is immune to bloody missiles? I can imagine the situation: M'shen keeps stabbing Curze fruitlessly into the face until her powers word finally breaks. "That's it! I quit and join Deparmento Sanitarium!"

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

 ScreamPaste wrote:

Any man could kill 10 others in a pub brawl if he is skilled enough,

Not if they're physically comparable to him and aren't mentally deficient. :/

the Primarchs weren't gods at all,

I'm not at all saying Sanguinius should snap Khorne's back.

they could be blown apart fairly easily with the right weapons

This is never shown or even implied. In fact, there are occasions where the primarchs are hit with some rather nasty weapons with out being blown apart. Mortarian taking anti tank weaponry without being effected comes to mind, and IIRC another Primarch survived being shot with a macro cannon.

I'm not claiming they're invincible, just very durable.

And actually, as infants the primarchs survived some insane things as well, like crashing through the crust of a planet made primarily of adamantine, or on death worlds where the monsters killed large numbers of grown men in power armour single handedly, or landing in volcanoes, it goes on, lol.

I would like to point out that a lot of this is RUMOR, even if it is in a horus heresy novel. Like the main rulebook says, it could be true or it could be myth. No one knows and the guys from the chaos side of things can't be trusted to tell the truth.

On another point, didn't Mortarion take that anti-tank weaponry to the face AFTER he became a Daemon Prince? Because that surely makes a difference.

Well said.
I don't have a problem with daemons (especially GD's or DP's) surviving that kind of stuff, because they're made of warp stuff, and have been given boat loads of unholy power by the gods.

 ScreamPaste wrote:
Some things are too consistent across sources to be rumour. Sanguinius physically dominating a greater daemon comes to mind.

As for the Mortarion thing, I do not believe so, as it was during the HH.

Edit: The above is at Roadkill.

@Crimson

IIRC, Luther was amped by Chaos when that occured.

Curze allowed himself to be killed, and I have nothing to say on Dorn as what actually happened there is speculation.

I would like to point out how, in DoW 1 rts game series, when a blood raven's captain lands the killing blow on a GD of khorne, you are treated to a spectacular display of combat prowess vs the GD, resulting in the captain standing on the daemon's shoulders, and whacking him in the face with a thunder hammer. This level of kill power is also reflected in the TT game. You don't exactly need to be the most powerful being in existence to do that...