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 Tangent wrote:
See, I think the term "MSU" sounds like ten models. But I can't imagine an army full of 10-model units having even the slightest chance of winning.

Agreed. I think MMU is more accurate in this case.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Tangent wrote:
See, I think the term "MSU" sounds like ten models. But I can't imagine an army full of 10-model units having even the slightest chance of winning.

Agreed. I think MMU is more accurate in this case.

If that army is units of 10 warriors of khorne, they have a good shot. ~23 S5 attacks at Init 5 is going to really leave a dent in enemy units (that's ~10 wounds vs T4, 13 wounds vs T3).
With that many wounding hits, they are unlikely to lose combat, and keep on grinding very effectively.
It's 170 points per block (200 with full command).
WS5 T4 4+ armor is going to limit losses they take.

You could run 10 units of 10, with full command, and then spend ~200 point on a cheap character.
Don't forget the VP bonus for having a unit champ whack a hero in a challenge, and 4S5 attacks from a unit champ is a threat.

-Matt

I mean... maybe I'm wrong, but I still don't see that army winning. A 10-man unit like that might win combat but won't break steadfast, and every single casualty they take hurts their effectiveness. They'll also never BE steadfast. Despite how hard they can hit, I don't see them winning overall.

Yeah, that's another issue on top if it giving VP away really easily. They would even lose a fight vs. most tarpits in the game.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Yeah, that's another issue on top if it giving VP away really easily. They would even lose a fight vs. most tarpits in the game.

That's actually not the case.
Vs WS3 or WS5, S3 T3 models, with a parry, those warriors of khorne will be doing ~10-11 wounds a turn, and averaging taking less than 1 in return.
The warriors can give up 4 wounds and only see their kills drop to by 1. (since they get 19 attacks from the front rank, and 4 supporting).
It will take ~5 rounds of combat to kill off those 4 guys in the back rank. In that time, the khorne warriors will have chewed through ~50 rank and file.
The warriors will have forced 5 steadfast checks by then.
Warriorsof Khrone are exceptionally good at chewing through tarpits.
The only thing I'd really worry about is T7+ monsters, Swordmasters/White Lions, or a blender vampire lord.

-Matt

Woah, thanks for the math. That's really surprising...and makes me rethink that MSU idea. It would still have some the downfall of being very vulnerable to ranged attacks, but overall, it doesn't sound too bad.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Woah, thanks for the math. That's really surprising...and makes me rethink that MSU idea. It would still have some the downfall of being very vulnerable to ranged attacks, but overall, it doesn't sound too bad.

It's all because the hitting power is in the front ranks. As long as the front rank lives, 75%+ of the hitting power is swinging.

The front rank always lives else the unit would be destroyed

What's funny is that, when I typed my post about steadfast and stuff, the unit I was imagining the Warriors being up against were Swordmasters. I don't even play High Elves, so I don't know why I imagined that. But a block of 20 Swordmasters would be a problem. And it just seems like a lot of armies have access (and usually field) some unit or units like that.

 Tangent wrote:
What's funny is that, when I typed my post about steadfast and stuff, the unit I was imagining the Warriors being up against were Swordmasters. I don't even play High Elves, so I don't know why I imagined that. But a block of 20 Swordmasters would be a problem. And it just seems like a lot of armies have access (and usually field) some unit or units like that.

Nobody gets anything like swordmasters besides high elves. The only thing khorne warriors really worry about is T7+ units, and S5 or higher with ASF. In a khorne MSU army, I'd take a chariot or 3 to help against swordmasters.

The whole swordmaster/white lion problem may go away in a few weeks when the new high elf book comes out.

-Matt

Yeh, true.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Tangent wrote:
I'm curious - what armies are capable of pulling this off, other than Lizardmen? By "this" I mean foregoing magic entirely.

Goblins, as the Little Waaagh is mostly a supportive lore (though it's a bad idea to forego a lvl 1 mage with ~+3 to each casting attempt). Ogre Kingdoms also come to my mind. WoC might also work out with enough artillery.

Warriors can with MSU. Some fast moving chariots backed by warrior blocks was how I was running it MSU style before the new book, minimal characters, with a lord only in the army if I was playing greater than 2000 points games.

The mighty Dwarves need no magic trickery!

As said, Dwarves have no magic. I have also seen Ogres do it as they also dont really need it, in many cases. And occasionally Orcs and Gobblins I have seen with no magic.

 Tangent wrote:
I mean... maybe I'm wrong, but I still don't see that army winning. A 10-man unit like that might win combat but won't break steadfast, and every single casualty they take hurts their effectiveness. They'll also never BE steadfast. Despite how hard they can hit, I don't see them winning overall.

MSU is a very viable army build style. It is predicated on controlling the movement phase by out deploying your opponent, winning the chaff war, creating multiple axis of threats, sacrificing a unit to gain an advantage, redirection, and bringing overwhelming forces on the point of attack. People are often amazed that they are being outmaneuvered by a basic movement 4 army.


The play style tends to lead to minor voctories over massacres since you often need to bleed points to accomplish your goals. You almost always need to finish a game.


If you are playing correctly, you are picking the battles. You should never be sending 10 Warriors in against a Bestigor herd, unless you were sacrificing that unit to accomplish something. You should send two 10 man units and a couple chariots in, which will include at least one flank charge. You will see those Bestigor thin very quickly and break staedfast before they know it.


The best armies for this build have access to models with multiple good quality attacks. As someone said, it is the front rank that is important. There should be an element of ranged support (magic or missle weapons). Good army wide leadership is important since you are often fighting outside of the IP/BSB bubble. Mobil chaff helps a lot. Finally access to high damage out/small footprint models such as chariots and monsters.

In my mind, MSU is not necessarily the smallest unit size the unit can be purchased. I usually ran 12 warriors 6x2. It was more a lack of depth and dependent on the base model. I would likely consider a bunch of 20 man halberdier units as MSU.

I have had a lot of success in tournaments with MSU and MSU/MMU. The best army for this was my WoC, though the lizards did very well also. Elements that made each work.

WoC (old book)-high damage out put/durable foot troops, chariots, excellent offensive/damage magic in the old tzeetch lore, chariots, mobile hard hitting characters, fast cav and hounds, re-roll panic/MoS.

LM-Suaurs, skinks, stegs, cold blooded. Please notice I left the Slann at home.

My new WoC list is based on these principals as well. I will get to a tourney once I have a couple of DP and a spawn painted (I would hate to loose a hero when he ascends to demonhood).

Hinge