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Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Relapse wrote:
I'm totaly on the side of the student that got suspended since I was in a similar situation at a hotel I worked in when I lived in New Orleans.
The short version is that I wrestled a gunman to the ground before he could shoot someone and held him in a joint lock until the cops came to get him.
The hotel management were total pricks about the whole incident.

And if you got shot while being a hero, the hotel management would have been open to a lawsuit.

Most businesses do not encourage their employees to do the heroic thing. They encourage their employees to do the safe, covered by insurance thing.
   
Made in us
Emboldened Warlock





Kanluwen wrote:
Most businesses do not encourage their employees to do the heroic thing. They encourage their employees to do the safe, covered by insurance thing.


I'm convinced that the biggest threat to our individual freedoms comes from the Insurance corporations.

On topic-

My kid was assaulted on the bus a while back. Bus driver did nothing to stop it. My son was sucker punched from behind. Dazed from the suprise attack and not able to defend himself as was shown on the video. My Daughters boyfriend ended up pulling the kid off of my son.

My son still got suspended as in "the bad kind that puts a permanent mark on your school record".
The Kid that Assaulted him got sent to an ad seg school(Juvie light.
My daughters boyfriend did not get suspended, (read he is prominent in team sports and family is connected)

Bus driver still has her job, even though she failed to follow district policy in that she kept driving until daughters boyfriend jumped in and it became appearant that my son needed medical attention.
Even then she didn't immediately call in

The reason for my sons suspension was that, because he covered his face, he was defending himself. Defending yourself=participation and thus the suspension.

So yeah, IMO, most "Zero Tolerance" policies are unrealistic and stupid. God, I hate how bad our public school system has become.

 
   
Made in au
Incorporating Wet-Blending






Australia

 Captain Avatar wrote:
So yeah, IMO, most "Zero Tolerance" policies are unrealistic and stupid.

I agree - a reliance on "zero tolerance" policies is a crutch for those too cowardly to make a moral judgement. Any worthwhile zero tolerance policy does not need to be enshrined as such, because it would stand on its own merits.

"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis 
   
Made in gb
Oberstleutnant





Back in the English morass

 Seaward wrote:
We need to ban .22s,


Nah, just handguns. Its not as if it is easy to smuggle a rifle onto a schoolbus.

RegalPhantom wrote:
If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Mannahnin wrote:
Well, to be fair, schools are in kind of an impossible situation, dealing with soft, entitled, douchebag parents demanding that their special snowflakes be kept perfectly safe from all harm, and awarded the great grades they all obviously deserve.

This is true


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Palindrome wrote:
 Seaward wrote:
We need to ban .22s,


Nah, just handguns. Its not as if it is easy to smuggle a rifle onto a schoolbus.


Just cut the barrel and stock down.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/04 12:19:26


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




 Kanluwen wrote:
Relapse wrote:
I'm totaly on the side of the student that got suspended since I was in a similar situation at a hotel I worked in when I lived in New Orleans.
The short version is that I wrestled a gunman to the ground before he could shoot someone and held him in a joint lock until the cops came to get him.
The hotel management were total pricks about the whole incident.

And if you got shot while being a hero, the hotel management would have been open to a lawsuit.

Most businesses do not encourage their employees to do the heroic thing. They encourage their employees to do the safe, covered by insurance thing.


My hand was forced in this situation. I was not about to run out on three of my friends and co workers, leaving them to get shot when I was in a position to stop the guy.
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Moustache-twirling Princeps





Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry

 Captain Avatar wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Most businesses do not encourage their employees to do the heroic thing. They encourage their employees to do the safe, covered by insurance thing.


I'm convinced that the biggest threat to our individual freedoms comes from the Insurance corporations.


I heard recently that being able to claim for whiplash in car accidents is going to be clamped down on.
Everyone saves ~£50 off their annual car insurance, and insurance companies stop talking to the "no-win, no-fee" claims companies.
Even the insurance people are fed up of the current state of their industry.

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Made in us
Old Sourpuss






Lakewood, Ohio

*sigh* I hate zero tolerance policies :-\.

Many years ago, when I was just but a young Alfndrate, I was being picked on because a couple of classmates were calling me by my last name. I hated being called by my last name, because it was so different than everyone else's... now it's pretty much the only thing I get called, and so I chased down these couple of kids that were being antagonistic, making pig calling sounds (as my name could be used to in fact call pigs :-\). I managed to get a hand on one of the kids' shirt, he ripped away, pushed me back, and we kept chasing each other. It ended when a 4th grader pushed me down onto the parking lot of my school (we didn't have a grass recess yard...), and knocked me cold for a minute or two. We were taken to my teacher's room, she wanted to know what happened, and after telling my story, and the kid denying it, I'm the one that got in trouble for starting a fight... Granted had there been a 0 tolerance policy, I'd have the satisfaction of knowing that those two kids who were antagonizing me (and would do so until high school when we went our separate ways) would have gotten some level of justice.

Oh well, in that case such a policy would have been helpful, it's not really all that helpful in this case, unless the intention is like what Howard said, but they also had to follow their 0 tolerance policy at the same time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/04 13:21:55


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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Relapse wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Relapse wrote:
I'm totaly on the side of the student that got suspended since I was in a similar situation at a hotel I worked in when I lived in New Orleans.
The short version is that I wrestled a gunman to the ground before he could shoot someone and held him in a joint lock until the cops came to get him.
The hotel management were total pricks about the whole incident.

And if you got shot while being a hero, the hotel management would have been open to a lawsuit.

Most businesses do not encourage their employees to do the heroic thing. They encourage their employees to do the safe, covered by insurance thing.


My hand was forced in this situation. I was not about to run out on three of my friends and co workers, leaving them to get shot when I was in a position to stop the guy.


It is better to be judged by twelve than carried by six...

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I can understand that a school has a policy for dealing with children in violent confrontations (generally by punishing everyone involved, even those acting to defend themselves), however, I would have thought that this kind of situation might have prompted a slight overlooking of the rules.


The administrators and school boards hide behind zero tolerance policies rather than risk being punished for attempting to apply common sense to individual incidents. As a parent I have had to deal with these polices and the jokers that enforce them a few times.

As to the 'the needed time off for protection/to get their heads together' theory, it is wrong. That has ZERO to do with why these kids were suspended and to think otherwise is to be willfully ignorant of how zero tolerance policies and their enforcement actually work.

Jake

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/04 13:27:22


Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

CptJake wrote:
 SilverMK2 wrote:
I can understand that a school has a policy for dealing with children in violent confrontations (generally by punishing everyone involved, even those acting to defend themselves), however, I would have thought that this kind of situation might have prompted a slight overlooking of the rules.


The administrators and school boards hide behind zero tolerance policies rather than risk being punished for attempting to apply common sense to individual incidents. As a parent I have had to deal with these polices and the jokers that enforce them a few times.

As to the 'the needed time off for protection/to get their heads together' theory, it is wrong. That has ZERO to do with why these kids were suspended and to think otherwise is to be willfully ignorant of how zero tolerance policies and their enforcement actually work.

Jake


You see it everywhere. People hide behind policy/rule/procedure when there is a highly blame oriented culture. If one follows a rule, no matter how stupidly, they are practically untouchable. Not blaming them. I'd do the same thing.


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Seaward wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
What have schools come to? When I was in 2nd grade there was this kid who kept tripping people on the bus. Non stop, he'd do it every day. One day I was fed up with it, and punched him in the face.

We get hauled into the principals office, he asked me why I punched the kid, I explained it, and he sent me on my way, without another word on the matter.

Well, to be fair, it's difficult to raise a generation of soft, entitled douchebags without a variety of absurdly PC rules governing their academic lives.

That explains the boomers, but what about our generation?
   
Made in us
Imperial Admiral




 Rented Tritium wrote:
That explains the boomers, but what about our generation?

I don't know what generation you're in.

I know mine is a pack of spoiled brats raising even worse.
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Kamloops, BC

 Seaward wrote:
 Rented Tritium wrote:
That explains the boomers, but what about our generation?

I don't know what generation you're in.

I know mine is a pack of spoiled brats raising even worse.


The thing is every previous generation seems to look down on the next one yet somehow society still functions alright.
   
Made in us
Imperial Admiral




 Cheesecat wrote:
The thing is every previous generation seems to look down on the next one yet somehow society still functions alright.

I'm talking about my generation. I don't remember quite this level of absurdity when I was matriculating through the public education system, so I have to assume it's the age 30+ parents raised by Boomers to be entitled jerkasses who've forced all of this crap into the schools.
   
Made in gb
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair





Beijing

 Frazzled wrote:
CptJake wrote:
 SilverMK2 wrote:
I can understand that a school has a policy for dealing with children in violent confrontations (generally by punishing everyone involved, even those acting to defend themselves), however, I would have thought that this kind of situation might have prompted a slight overlooking of the rules.


The administrators and school boards hide behind zero tolerance policies rather than risk being punished for attempting to apply common sense to individual incidents. As a parent I have had to deal with these polices and the jokers that enforce them a few times.

As to the 'the needed time off for protection/to get their heads together' theory, it is wrong. That has ZERO to do with why these kids were suspended and to think otherwise is to be willfully ignorant of how zero tolerance policies and their enforcement actually work.

Jake


You see it everywhere. People hide behind policy/rule/procedure when there is a highly blame oriented culture. If one follows a rule, no matter how stupidly, they are practically untouchable. Not blaming them. I'd do the same thing.



Nuremberg defence then. As long as they do exactly what they were told and show no initiative at all, then someone else can get the blame. A litigation culture is mostly responsible for this I think, no one ever wants to take responsibility or ownership of situations or things in case it makes them liable. The litigation culture sounds like a problem in the US that has spread to the UK, jobsworths are everywhere.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/05 07:36:00


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Seaward wrote:
 Cheesecat wrote:
The thing is every previous generation seems to look down on the next one yet somehow society still functions alright.

I'm talking about my generation. I don't remember quite this level of absurdity when I was matriculating through the public education system, so I have to assume it's the age 30+ parents raised by Boomers to be entitled jerkasses who've forced all of this crap into the schools.


This would be accurate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Howard A Treesong wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
CptJake wrote:
 SilverMK2 wrote:
I can understand that a school has a policy for dealing with children in violent confrontations (generally by punishing everyone involved, even those acting to defend themselves), however, I would have thought that this kind of situation might have prompted a slight overlooking of the rules.


The administrators and school boards hide behind zero tolerance policies rather than risk being punished for attempting to apply common sense to individual incidents. As a parent I have had to deal with these polices and the jokers that enforce them a few times.

As to the 'the needed time off for protection/to get their heads together' theory, it is wrong. That has ZERO to do with why these kids were suspended and to think otherwise is to be willfully ignorant of how zero tolerance policies and their enforcement actually work.

Jake


You see it everywhere. People hide behind policy/rule/procedure when there is a highly blame oriented culture. If one follows a rule, no matter how stupidly, they are practically untouchable. Not blaming them. I'd do the same thing.



Nuremberg defence then. As long as they do exactly what they were told and show no initiative at all, then someone else can get the blame. A litigation culture is mostly responsible for this I think, no one ever wants to take responsibility or ownership of situations or things in case it makes them liable. The litigation culture sounds like a problem in the US that has spread to the UK, jobsworths are everywhere.

Litigation culture is part of it. Its also a blame culture.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/05 12:02:48


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 Seaward wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
What have schools come to? When I was in 2nd grade there was this kid who kept tripping people on the bus. Non stop, he'd do it every day. One day I was fed up with it, and punched him in the face.

We get hauled into the principals office, he asked me why I punched the kid, I explained it, and he sent me on my way, without another word on the matter.

Well, to be fair, it's difficult to raise a generation of soft, entitled douchebags without a variety of absurdly PC rules governing their academic lives.


You do realize what generation is creating the massive deficit in the US budget, right? As in, the generation that created and now won't cut Medicare.

And please, "PC" is silly. It doesn't adress the individual case but rather dismisses any argument because it doesn't fit into your world view. It's about as useful as "because I say so" as an argument.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in ae
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






George Carlin: "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."

No offence people in America, but sometimes your country does the darndest things.
   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending






Glendale, AZ

 Frazzled wrote:


It is better to be judged by twelve than carried by six...


This was my policy when working at convenience stores. I never worked a shift without my firearm. I don't do it to be a hero; I've been robbed twice while armed, but nobody pointed a weapon at me, so I followed policy. My intent was (is) to have an option if somebody points a gun at me. I could either put my hands up and surrender, or displace and draw and depending on the situation. But I'd rather face disciplinary actions (either legal or work generated) than not have that option.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/06 00:14:01


Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.


 
   
Made in ca
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Kamloops, BC

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
George Carlin: "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."

No offence people in America, but sometimes your country does the darndest things.


   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






 Frazzled wrote:


You see it everywhere. People hide behind policy/rule/procedure when there is a highly blame oriented culture. If one follows a rule, no matter how stupidly, they are practically untouchable. Not blaming them. I'd do the same thing.



that Bakersfield nurse story where she let some one die because of "company policy".

this story also takes my smile away and a palm to my face

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Given that 'no-tolerance policies' exist only to allow school administrators to no have to think, is it any wonder they can't actually teach our kids think for themselves?

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Gathering the Informations.

 Vulcan wrote:
Given that 'no-tolerance policies' exist only to allow school administrators to no have to think, is it any wonder they can't actually teach our kids think for themselves?

This is a mostly false statement.

Zero tolerance policies primarily exist to cover the school district from overly litigious parents.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 djones520 wrote:
What have schools come to? When I was in 2nd grade there was this kid who kept tripping people on the bus. Non stop, he'd do it every day. One day I was fed up with it, and punched him in the face.

We get hauled into the principals office, he asked me why I punched the kid, I explained it, and he sent me on my way, without another word on the matter.

You see... I wear hearing aids... so you can imagine what it was like being in middle/high school (a large one too).

Some kids would be aggressive towards me, and sometime I wouldn't back down... man we were brawling. (numerous times).

This was the beginning of "Zero Tolerance" policy... so, even if eyewitness stated that I was only defending myself, I got the same punishment as the agressor.

I didn't fething care...

After about the 5th time or so... my day had enough. He went to the principle's office and in front of everyone there, he demanded why I kept recieving the same punishment as the aggressor... and the principle proceeded to explain the Zero Tolerance policy.

Following that my dad provided one of the most epic response evah, and he said (I'll parapharse):
"How about I wait for you in the parklot by your car and beat the living gak out of you"
And the principle said:
"I'll call the police"
Dad then said:
"So what, in your world, you and I will get the same punishment."


Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
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Norwalk, Connecticut

Move over Captain America: Whembly's dad is my new hero.

Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.

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 Kanluwen wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
Given that 'no-tolerance policies' exist only to allow school administrators to no have to think, is it any wonder they can't actually teach our kids think for themselves?

This is a mostly false statement.

Zero tolerance policies primarily exist to cover the school district from overly litigious parents.

Except, since the effete surbananite scumbags are the ones electing the schoolboards and controlling the policy, it doesn't make much sense for the policies to be there to protect schools from the lunatics who made/demanded the policies in the first place.

 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 whembly wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
What have schools come to? When I was in 2nd grade there was this kid who kept tripping people on the bus. Non stop, he'd do it every day. One day I was fed up with it, and punched him in the face.

We get hauled into the principals office, he asked me why I punched the kid, I explained it, and he sent me on my way, without another word on the matter.

You see... I wear hearing aids... so you can imagine what it was like being in middle/high school (a large one too).

Some kids would be aggressive towards me, and sometime I wouldn't back down... man we were brawling. (numerous times).

This was the beginning of "Zero Tolerance" policy... so, even if eyewitness stated that I was only defending myself, I got the same punishment as the agressor.

I didn't fething care...

After about the 5th time or so... my day had enough. He went to the principle's office and in front of everyone there, he demanded why I kept recieving the same punishment as the aggressor... and the principle proceeded to explain the Zero Tolerance policy.

Following that my dad provided one of the most epic response evah, and he said (I'll parapharse):
"How about I wait for you in the parklot by your car and beat the living gak out of you"
And the principle said:
"I'll call the police"
Dad then said:
"So what, in your world, you and I will get the same punishment."



No no no they were just trying to train you slow people on the Second Hit Rule.
Don't fight them in school. Beat hell out of em outside of school.

But yea, your Dad sounds like epic cool.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/06 12:07:45


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in ae
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






I want to know what happens next!
   
Made in de
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience






Nuremberg

In situations like this, I'd blame litigous parents and judges that don't just throw these dumb lawsuits out of court.

Schools make these sorts of policies to avoid being accused of discrimination.

It is really dumb, but I've seen how it can happen. If people aren't happy about it, give teachers and schools more protection from litigation.

   
 
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