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So I just finished reading the fantasy and 40k demons dexes and I am exhausted at the number of special rules and named items and gifts, and loci, weapons with tests and generation of said things. As a demon player in the past demons were actually pretty simple there was not a plethora of paper work at the beginning or throughout the game. I think the new dex may actually decrease fun a bit with just be amount of crap you have to keep track of. Lastly what was the point of warp storm. It's not fun, did they just have two blank pages they had to fill? Lets slow the game down, screw the demon player at random...its not even that fluffy, its just annoying. Rant done, is there too much book keeping?

This really is a worry I think, how much random can the game really keep up like this. And how much will it effect fun with the game possibly swinging more due to pure luck than even the players choices.

No way.

At first, I only wanted specific models from the Daemons range because they looked awesome. Then I wanted more as I looked closer at the detail. Then I bought the codex and I'm hooked on their play style.

I can honestly say that there isn't anything I dislike about the codex...

Except Bloodcrusher's save which is a moot point as I'm going mono Nurgle.

+ Randomness = + Fun in my books, not so much if your playing a tournament for sure but being able to predict the probable outcome of a match before it starts is a little drol.

There really isn't that much more bookkeeping, than in some other armies.

Besides the Gifts, which I don't mind, because I can tailor if I take the Primaris or not depending on my roll/enemy army.

If you think there is too much book keeping going on you could rewrite your list.

I have 2 Greater Rewards and 3 Psychic Powers for my Greater Daemon, and 1 Exalted Reward for my Herald (which I always swap to The Portalglyph).

I've got my Psychic Cards so all I need to remember is his 2 rewards and his Warlord Trait.

 XT-1984 wrote:
If you think there is too much book keeping going on you could rewrite your list.

I have 2 Greater Rewards and 3 Psychic Powers for my Greater Daemon, and 1 Exalted Reward for my Herald (which I always swap to The Portalglyph).

I've got my Psychic Cards so all I need to remember is his 2 rewards and his Warlord Trait.

Have you found the Portal Glyph to be useful? I've found it's too fragile, and with a 50% not to do anything, Can be a bit upsetting. I Prefer the Grimoire of True Names for my Exalted gift, if I take one.

Can someone who thinks it is too much book keeping some examples? I personally do not think that there is too much that something like index cards, markers or something couldn't solve.

 Sasori wrote:

 XT-1984 wrote:
If you think there is too much book keeping going on you could rewrite your list.

I have 2 Greater Rewards and 3 Psychic Powers for my Greater Daemon, and 1 Exalted Reward for my Herald (which I always swap to The Portalglyph).

I've got my Psychic Cards so all I need to remember is his 2 rewards and his Warlord Trait.

Have you found the Portal Glyph to be useful? I've found it's too fragile, and with a 50% not to do anything, Can be a bit upsetting. I Prefer the Grimoire of True Names for my Exalted gift, if I take one.

Something to not forget about the portalglyph: it has no vertical profile. So you can drop it behind some hill, in ruins, whatever there is that blocks line of site and let it spawn. It is even more hilarious if you deploy your army by your objectives, then drop the PG on the other end of the field (or somewhere else inconvient - they are going to have to choose to either go avter your units or your glyph. They would need to eventually cause you can move those units created to cover the glyph and yous backfield and advance. I have not personally tried this yet - but it is on my list...

Book keeping teaches important math, science, and home making skills.

The game needs more.

Just make yourself some tokens.

Cook yourself some cookie tokens and share them with your opponent. Or us M&Ms. The Green ones are for the Nurgle Powers!

Randomness is a good thing in my book.

The only table we need to look at each turn is the warp storm one, otherwise we need to look once per game at other tables, and normally at the start.

For reference, CSM need to look at the gift table sometimes at the start of the game, and each time they kill a character. They also need to check something when possessed and spawn get into melee.

As for the portal, just stick it out of LOS and constantly try to spawn objective holders. It also has a 5+ invul, just in case.

All part of the new "narrative" experience of randomhammer 40k!

My taxes is a lot of book keeping.

Writing down the results of a few rolls is not hard.

Maybe GW are onto something. These last few years they've all but expressly stated they hate competition (in games or buisness). With added randomness hurting competitive play for said codex, maybe they are doing this to put Tourneys away.

In addition, this idea of "less skill, more luck" means to me? Balance. In 5th, you won because you had good codex and units and were a good player, but those who stubbornly resisted by having a bad codex such as Nids, Tau, Oldcrons, were screwed.

Now imagine if those games were much less based on skill and picking TH/SS Termies, Grey Knight Wound Shenanigan Paladins, Venomspam, Long Fangs, etc. and more based on rolling a 4+ here or there, a 6 once or twice, etc. Would those armies go from being "OMG OP!!!!!" to "He just got luckier?"

Randomness makes sense, seeing as they're Chaos after all.

All tied up at 26/26 Thanks for the comments so far.

Used the new codex for the first time yesterday. It took all of about 3-4 minutes tops for me to roll-up and write down all my gifts and psychic powers.
Give it a few more games and it'll go faster since I'll eventually memorize the 3 charts.

All I'll do from now on with my army lists is leave space to record the results of all my rolls for each relevent character...
So for example, instead of just typing out say; Herald of Tzeentch w/locus of 'X', 2x Lesser Gifts, Lv3.
I'll instead do it like;
Herald of Tzeentch w/locus of 'X'
Lesser Reward #1
Lesser Reward #2
Lv3 psyker spells

Not that hard to do and keeps things neat and tidy for easy reference in-game.
That and I'll be typing out a fresh copy of the Warpstorm table to leave on the table so that we don't have to clutter things up with an open book.

Things like who has Warpflame bonus, Blue Horror attacks and such can be easily handeled with modeled counters to keep track of everything.

Played my first game today. Took about 10 min's to sort out everything from warlord power, gift's, and psychic powers, but I'm new to the book. Soon, it will be 3 min's top's.

It goes fairly quick

Hospy wrote:
Randomness makes sense, seeing as they're Chaos after all.

This. Also, we've only just got the book - it's going to seem like a lot to take in at once, because you're looking at all the possible rolls and results for all 4 gods at once in a cursory readthrough.
Actually playing a game, I didn't find that there was too much to keep track of.

There are two other points to make - one is that if you spend too much on Rewards and Psychic Mastery Levels etc., you'll find yourself short on other units which is a good way to nerf yourself, so rein in the temptation. If you have a fairly regular force you'll also come to learn the options that crop up for your choices.

Never understood why people associate chaos with randomness. Chaos fluff wise is actually very focused. You have death, decay, depravity, and change. None of these things are random. Its like people take the very literal definition of Choas and feel they need to apply it to the army. Where as fluff wise the forces of Chaos would be the forces of disorder (not acting random themselves) but fighting against the forces or Order (those trying to maintain power). A simple analogy would a star wars one. The empire was actually the force of order in episodes 4-6 and the rebels were the forces of chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Did either the empire or rebels act randomly? No.

Chaos has had the random factor for a LONG time, though. Fluff-wise you have the gods turning some of their most favoured minions into Spawn just because they feel like it, completely ignoring that they could serve their purpose better with wits intact. Then there's the self-defeating nature of Khorne followers killing their own and themselves (which, ok, is partly strengthening Khorne himself some, but you get the idea). Tzeentch, meanwhile, overdoes it so much on the scheming that he frequently screws himself over.
Then there's the other Warp entities that aren't as powerful as the big 4, but encompass just every aspect of human and alien psychology and emotion, all vying for power.
Once upon a time there was a 5th chaos god, Malal, who represented the capacity for self-destruction and thus was powered by the actions of the other gods...

In game terms, they've had random rolls for effects all the way back to Rogue Trader and the two Realms of Chaos books. This died out some with the later Codexes, but a lot of people wanted the randomness back, so here we are.

If Chaos WASN'T random, but instead acted completely accordingly to their goals and didn't engage in behaviour detrimental to themselves, they would be closer to the Tyranids, just with 4 opposing factions.