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It could be one of the lost Primarchs.

*Silently leaves thread through the back entrance*

 Avatar 720 wrote:
It could be one of the lost Primarchs.

*Silently leaves thread through the back entrance*

Perhaps, though the use of "knight" is highly suggestive as well.

 Crimson wrote:
Grey Knights are not incorruptible.

"Each Grey Knight is an accomplished, powerful psyker whose psychic presence is anathema to creatures of the Warp. They are trained to channel their psychic energies into a halo of protective wards known as The Aegis. Thusly armoured, a Grey Knight's presence becomes unpalatable to Daemons, making him immune to corruption, able to wield forbidden black magic, harness tainted artefacts and scour blasphemous tomes all without risk of being overwhelmed by the cursed power of Chaos. The Grey Knights hold a unique honour among the chapters of the Adeptus Astartes - in over ten thousand years of service, not a single one of their number has ever defected to Chaos."

Fluff disagree with you.

@BCA: That simply indicates that none have fallen yet.

 pretre wrote:
@BCA: That simply indicates that none have fallen yet.

By that logic Emperor can be corrupted too. It's that Chaos Gods just didn't try yet, or maybe they already did but we don't know... ( pointing to the last mission of DoW:Retribution )

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 pretre wrote:
@BCA: That simply indicates that none have fallen yet.

By that logic Emperor can be corrupted too. It's that Chaos Gods just didn't try yet, or maybe they already did but we don't know... ( pointing to the last mission of DoW:Retribution )

Well, we know the step between Emperor and Grey Knight has fallen at least once... So yeah, it is possible for anyone to fall.

Excellent, now give me a proof from fluff that Emperor can be corrupted.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Excellent, now give me a proof from fluff that Emperor can be corrupted.

Why? There's no reason it matters.

The Grey Knights are immune to corruption as long as their Aegis is up (or so the fluff you quoted says). What happens when their Aegis is down? Oh yeah, not immune to corruption.

 pretre wrote:

Why? There's no reason it matters.

The Grey Knights are immune to corruption as long as their Aegis is up (or so the fluff you quoted says). What happens when their Aegis is down? Oh yeah, not immune to corruption.

That is because Emperor cannot be corrupter, he is anathema to all Chaos like all human psykers that can be trained to fight them. Same goes for Grey Knights, the very idea that they are incorruptible is because they are carrying his geen-seed + they have best anti-Chaos training Imperium can provide. Take Garran Crowe for example - he is carrying daemon infested sword at all times and he is doing it with only his very own psychic power, without Aegis.

So please, until the day GW says so - Grey Knights are incorruptible. Sorry, correction - impossible to corrupt ( at least on psychical level, I am not to sure about flesh ).

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
That is because Emperor cannot be corrupter, he is anathema to all Chaos like all human psykers that can be trained to fight them.

Not germane to the argument.

Same goes for Grey Knights, the very idea that they are incorruptible is because they are carrying his geen-seed

You just contradicted your own fluff quote. They are incorruptible because of psychic shielding and their power creating an Aegis.

Take Garran Crowe for example - he is carrying daemon infested sword at all times and he is doing it with only his very own psychic power, without Aegis.

Their psychic power creates the Aegis. Again, read your own quote.

So please, until the day GW says so - Grey Knights are incorruptible. Sorry, correction - impossible to corrupt ( at least on psychical level, I am not to sure about flesh ).

As long as they maintain their Aegis, yes. They are not immune to physical corruption.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah, just double checked Crowe, it specifically says he has to psychically battle it constantly. Hence, if he lowers the Aegis of his powers, he could be corrupted. Otherwise there would be no battle.

 pretre wrote:

Not germane to the argument.

It is, because Emperor cannot be corrupted by any means and Grey Knights carry his geen-seed.

You just contradicted your own fluff quote. They are incorruptible because of psychic shielding and their power creating an Aegis.

I didn't I backed it with the fact that they are carrying Emperor's geen-seed. That is a big + to their fight against Chaos corruption.

Their psychic power creates the Aegis. Again, read your own quote.

Not entirely true - 50% psychic powers and 50% power armor battery. But it is also said that grey Knights are trained to use their own psychic powers to protect their minds without the use of Aegis. If ordinary psykers can do that why Grey Knights couldn't?

Yeah, just double checked Crowe, it specifically says he has to psychically battle it constantly. Hence, if he lowers the Aegis of his powers, he could be corrupted. Otherwise there would be no battle.

I did and it says that he is doing psychic battle with the blade at all times, indicating that he is still battling him even when his Aegis is down. And that is why Grey Knights are incorruptible - because with the Aegis they have very strong psychic shield that they create from their own psychic power. The only way for Chaos to corrupt them is to offer them prices if they do - like they did to certain Primarchs to corrupt them. And sice Grey Knights live only for two things - war against Chaos and Emperor, we will never see Grey Knight falling to Chaos mentally.

Now give me a proff of Grey Knight falling to Chaos.
This "mysterious knight" cannot possibly be Draigo, Kelly is not that stupid to wreck some of the basic 40k lore.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

That is because Emperor cannot be corrupter, he is anathema to all Chaos like all human psykers that can be trained to fight them. Same goes for Grey Knights, the very idea that they are incorruptible is because they are carrying his geen-seed + they have best anti-Chaos training Imperium can provide. Take Garran Crowe for example - he is carrying daemon infested sword at all times and he is doing it with only his very own psychic power, without Aegis.

Grey Knights don't have Emperor's geneseed. Emperor was not a Primarch, he doesn't have geneseed. And the fact that the Grey Knights have to use their powers and struggle against corruption contains the possibility that they could also fail.

But this is same sort of gak than in the Primarch thread, people do not only want their heroes to succeed, they want them to do so without an effort or any risk. I do not get this. If you cannot fail, succeeding is not an accomplishment.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Not germane to the argument.

It is, because Emperor cannot be corrupted by any means and Grey Knights carry his geen-seed.

The first part has no fluff backing and the second part is arguable. The codex says it is a new gene-seed and was blessed by the emperor's body and soul. The Emperor doesn't have Gene-Seed however, so it just used parts of him to make it.

I didn't I backed it with the fact that they are carrying Emperor's geen-seed. That is a big + to their fight against Chaos corruption.

It may help, but there is no mention in any of the fluff of that making them immune. Why would Crowe struggle with the blade if he is immune to its corruption? If he was immune, he'd just throw it in a scabbard and call it a day.

Not entirely true - 50% psychic powers and 50% power armor battery. But it is also said that grey Knights are trained to use their own psychic powers to protect their minds without the use of Aegis. If ordinary psykers can do that why Grey Knights couldn't?

Again, contradicting yourself. So without the Power Armor battery, they are 50% corruptible?

I did and it says that he is doing psychic battle with the blade at all times, indicating that he is still battling him even when his Aegis is down. And that is why Grey Knights are incorruptible - because with the Aegis they have very strong psychic shield that they create from their own psychic power. The only way for Chaos to corrupt them is to offer them prices if they do - like they did to certain Primarchs to corrupt them. And sice Grey Knights live only for two things - war against Chaos and Emperor, we will never see Grey Knight falling to Chaos mentally.

Why battle if you can't lose? And you just made my point, if a Grey Knight CAN fall to chaos (even if just by gift) then they are not incorruptible.

Now give me a proff of Grey Knight falling to Chaos.

There isn't any because it hasn't happened yet. Just because something hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it won't happen.

This "mysterious knight" cannot possibly be Draigo,

It could be Draigo, although I find it unlikely. It is also probably just written from the Daemon perspective, as most books are, and is propaganda (just as much of the GK codex is).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
If you cannot fail, succeeding is not an accomplishment.

Exactly.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

 pretre wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Grey Knights are not incorruptible. None just have been corrupted... yet.

Wasn't that true of the Sisters of Battle for a long time too, until they decided to corrupt some?

One, so far. Not some.

You could argue that the bloodtide event in the grey knight codex corrupted a good deal of sisters. They instantly turned on their fellow sisters.

So basically this is just another story that GW has come up with that will never be answered and people will always speculate about?

Its more than possible.

Even the Emperor could be corrupted, hence he is feeding on Souls, and that the Chaos Gods havent overpowered him, because he effectively is one.

I also think it would be more than possible for Draigo to fall to Chaos, especially considerring that anything under constant pressure will break eventually.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Why? There's no reason it matters.

The Grey Knights are immune to corruption as long as their Aegis is up (or so the fluff you quoted says). What happens when their Aegis is down? Oh yeah, not immune to corruption.

That is because Emperor cannot be corrupter, he is anathema to all Chaos like all human psykers that can be trained to fight them. Same goes for Grey Knights, the very idea that they are incorruptible is because they are carrying his geen-seed + they have best anti-Chaos training Imperium can provide. Take Garran Crowe for example - he is carrying daemon infested sword at all times and he is doing it with only his very own psychic power, without Aegis.

So please, until the day GW says so - Grey Knights are incorruptible. Sorry, correction - impossible to corrupt ( at least on psychical level, I am not to sure about flesh ).

The GK are not immune to the physical effects of Chaos. If they were, they would not have needed to saw Sisters apart with chainswords to resist the Bloodtide. As it was, however, this was a required component for their continued protection. Also, immune to the effects of corruption means that, for example, a GK can pick up a Daemon Weapon or a grimoire or whatever, and not have his mind immediately ripped asunder by the Daemon contained therein, and can even employ such a thing. However, this does not make a GK immune to such machinations as the Daemon may employ that makes the GK wake up one morning and say, "You know what? Last week, I rammed my chainsword through the chest of a nineteen year old girl who only ever wanted to serve the God-Emperor faithfully, and I said that it was what He required. What the hell am I doing with my life? Is *this* what the God-Emperor wants me to do? Really? You know what? Feth that guy... eight-rayed stars and tentacles all the way!" ... this has not yet happened to a GK, but there is no guarantee that it *won't*.

We also have no idea if the Emperor was immune to corruption, by default, or if He simply was not corrupted because His force of will was such that He resisted the temptations of Chaos.

All Space Marines carried His gene-seed, as did all of the Primarchs (directly)... and yet, fully half of them Fell. One can carry a Daemon Weapon and, assuming one is of sufficient force of will, resist its mind-control, warpy effects... at least, for awhile. A moment of doubt, however...

Does anyone else find it interesting that people keep pointing out the word 'anathema' as proof that the Emperor is both immune to and a threat to Chaos when the word actually means 'sacrifice' or 'exile'?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
kneels instead and lets Slaanesh knight him"

Some kind of innuendo?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Durza wrote:
Does anyone else find it interesting that people keep pointing out the word 'anathema' as proof that the Emperor is both immune to and a threat to Chaos when the word actually means 'sacrifice' or 'exile'?

Sacrifice? Anathema in this context means "contrary to."

Br. Cpt. Alex keeps saying the Emperor cannot be "corrupted" but I'm not sure what that means. The simplest definition of corruption I can think of is "serves, voluntary or otherwise, the Ruinous Powers." In that broad sense, everyone is corrupted inasmuch as experiencing feelings empowers and draws the Chaos Gods -- especially concerning psykers. And the Emperor is a hugely powerful psyker and therefore very strongly draws their attention. TBH, I wouldn't be surprised if the entire Imperium was basically just the Emperor's "security system" against the Chaos Gods and he has no other motive than self-preservation.

Anyhow, before anyone can claim that the Emperor or a GK can or cannot be "corrupted" we're going to need a definition of "corrupt."

The Changeling short story shows that it can't be Draigo - or indeed ANY Grey Knight - that fell to Slaanesh in his domain. Reason being, it admits that no Grey Knight has fallen *yet*.
Whether or not one could fall and/or will fall, is down to us as players and storytellers to decide. But for now, none have fallen yet, and that means the one that already fell can't be a Grey Knight.

 Super Ready wrote:
The Changeling short story shows that it can't be Draigo - or indeed ANY Grey Knight - that fell to Slaanesh in his domain. Reason being, it admits that no Grey Knight has fallen *yet*.
Whether or not one could fall and/or will fall, is down to us as players and storytellers to decide. But for now, none have fallen yet, and that means the one that already fell can't be a Grey Knight.

Again, you're falling for the bias of the storyteller. The GK codex tells us that no GK has fallen yet... That we know of... The Changeling tells us a GK has fallen... Or he could be trying to spin positive on Draigo.

Really, you never know until you have the story from an out of universe source, which we hardly ever get.

All this talk of "yet" is also weird. There is no time in the Warp, at least not relative to real space (therefore, it is possible for a ship to reach its destination before leaving, etc), therefore the idea that no GK has fallen "yet" (i.e., as of "now" -- which is when again? what is the specific "present" of a codex? especially one about Chaos) is not really determinative.

 Manchu wrote:

Br. Cpt. Alex keeps saying the Emperor cannot be "corrupted" but I'm not sure what that means.

In a way that the Chaos Gods overpower his will and twist him into becoming Daemon Emperor of Mankind, just like they have done to his Primarchs who have fallen to corruption.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
In a way that the Chaos Gods overpower his will and twist him into becoming Daemon Emperor of Mankind, just like they have done to his Primarchs who have fallen to corruption.

The Chaos Gods didn't overpower the Primarchs. Some of them came willingly.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
In a way that the Chaos Gods overpower his will and twist him into becoming Daemon Emperor of Mankind, just like they have done to his Primarchs who have fallen to corruption.

I am wondering which Primarch achieved daemonhood against their will. The closest case is Fulgrim, but that is highly questionable at this point. Anyway, just assuming that is the case -- are you basically saying that "being corrupted" means being possessed such that you aren't in control of yourself any more? In that sense, you are saying that it is impossible for the Emperor or a GK to be possessed against their will? Are you also saying that it is impossible that a GK or the Emperor could consent to possession? So, for example, let's say a GK was in a scenario like "the Exorcist" where he needed to take a daemonic spirit into himself and then commit suicide to banish it. Would he not be able to do that?

Or, to give you the much shorter version, I don't think your definition is specific enough.

Here's another question: Does corruption require consent?

 Manchu wrote:

Here's another question: Does corruption require consent?

It depends, those who want to be corrupted allow it.
Those who do not have to fight against it and in those kind of scenarios corruption doesn't require consent. That is also the scenario for Grey Knights.

The Grey Knight in the Changeling story wasn't exactly a full blown heretic the moment he saw the innocents getting blown up.

He was a raw recruit who had a doubt for a split second, and then returned to his duties.

But a split second is all Chaos needs to sow the seed.

The story is about the one of the many schemes the Changeling has. It doesn't end with a Grey Knight having a slight doubt about the ethics of his order.

It probably doesn't end with a heretical Grey Knight either, too predictable.

It is just one small piece of an almighty puzzle.


As for Grey Knights being incorruptible in general, they aren't. Holier and stronger willed individuals have fallen to the temptations of Chaos.

That fluff you quoted is old. New fluff is that with Chaos, anything is possible.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Here's another question: Does corruption require consent?

It depends, those who want to be corrupted allow it.
Those who do not have to fight against it and in those kind of scenarios corruption doesn't require consent. That is also the scenario for Grey Knights.

So you think GK do not have to "fight against" being corrupted (you still haven't told me what you mean by corruption) and that means that whether they become corrupted is not a matter of their consent? I don't think I understand your argument.

But here's the closest I can get:

GKs are so pure they do not have to actively guard against corruption; being corrupted is not one of their concerns. They cannot "give in" to corruption because they are not troubled with the matter in the first place. In other words, it is not a question that is on their minds: it is beyond their conception as pure warriors. Therefore, because a GK cannot even conceive of being corrupted any corruption he suffers must ipso facto be against his will.

Is that what you mean?

If so, then you must also be saying that a GK can become corrupted -- just that he cannot willingly do so. Unless you also use the "purity card" to say that they can't even be corrupted against their will ...

My bigger problem with that argument is that it assumes this awesome purity of the GK -- but where does that come from? This ties back to the question of the Emperor and ultimately what the definition of corruption is. We have to know what corruption means to know what pure means OR we have to know what pure means to know what corruption means.

Right now, you haven't defined either with adequate precision.

If this is Draigo, then the GK are lead by Chaos, making Chapter 666 sort of like a traitor chapter, yet they are the most resilient to Daemons, blah blah blah. FETH YOU WARD!