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I am looking for the cheapest way (points and real $$) to get Imperial Guard into my list as allies to my C:SM.

I am asking in reference to the mandatory HQ and troops choice I must take to get access to the other goodies from the codex. Not in reference to what a good allied detachment would be.

Looking through the IG codex, it seems that either a CCS or Lord Commisar with a single Veteran Squad would be the best way to accomplish this.

The two sort of categories I am interested in are:
1. <Whole Hog> Spend the points and effort to get an HQ/Troop choice that can make a significant impact in my force.
2. <PDF Special> Just get a dirt cheap HQ/Troop unit that can bolster a line and maybe kill something, while unlocking the codex.

This unit would ideally be able to contribute in some way to my force, but as long as it can camp a backfield objective and throw a few shots downrange while protecting my ranged assets from deep strikers, then it'll have done its job.

Balancing points cost and abilities, while not setting overly high expectations for the unit, what would be your recommendations on either idea for how to satisfy the HQ/Troop requirement to access IG allies.

If I'm not mistaken you don't need the HQ and troops. You can just pick and pull from the chart. You can just take 3 vendettas squadroned if you want.

 Xadakk wrote:
If I'm not mistaken you don't need the HQ and troops. You can just pick and pull from the chart. You can just take 3 vendettas squadroned if you want.

BRB :

Allied Detatchments

If you wish, your army can include one allied detachment
for each primary detachment in your army (normally one,
but if you're playing a larger game this might be two). As with
the primary detachment, all units in the allied detachment must
be chosen from the same codex, and this must be a different
codex to the one used for the primary detachment.
As with the prim ary detachment, this section is split into
a number of dark and light boxes, where dark boxes are
compulsory selections, and light boxes are optional. An allied
detachment will therefore always have one HQ selection and at
least one troops selection.

How about just taking either a primaris psyker or a commissar as your HQ and then vet squads as a troop choice.

technically, the cheapest is a CCS and a vet squad with no upgrades whatsoever. The problem is that you're having to spend 120 points for virtually nothing. It's a straight tax. If you pass out some weapons, though, you could spend 170 points and get 3 BS4 meltaguns and 2 BS4 lascannons.

120 points for a few lasguns is a terrible deal. 170 points for a decent amount of anti-tank isn't. It's going to be worth your time to arm your allies properly, especially since they're guard, which has access to lots of cheap weapons upgrades.

Now, if what you're really wanting is a vendetta, then you should take either a primaris psyker or a lord commissar so that the HQ, the troops, and the vendetta can all be used as a single package.

UltraTacSgt wrote:

I am looking for the cheapest way (points and real $$) to get Imperial Guard into my list as allies to my C:SM.

I am asking in reference to the mandatory HQ and troops choice I must take to get access to the other goodies from the codex. Not in reference to what a good allied detachment would be.

Looking through the IG codex, it seems that either a CCS or Lord Commisar with a single Veteran Squad would be the best way to accomplish this.

The two sort of categories I am interested in are:
1. <Whole Hog> Spend the points and effort to get an HQ/Troop choice that can make a significant impact in my force.
2. <PDF Special> Just get a dirt cheap HQ/Troop unit that can bolster a line and maybe kill something, while unlocking the codex.

This unit would ideally be able to contribute in some way to my force, but as long as it can camp a backfield objective and throw a few shots downrange while protecting my ranged assets from deep strikers, then it'll have done its job.

Balancing points cost and abilities, while not setting overly high expectations for the unit, what would be your recommendations on either idea for how to satisfy the HQ/Troop requirement to access IG allies.

the primus psyker or lord commisar are the cheapest $$$ HQ models as they are only 1 model. They do however cost more points than a CCS. A CCS is 5 models, so more expensive $$$ wise.
1 vet squad is cheap $$$ wise and is the cheapest point wise but a platoon will probably bring you more bang for the points.

What I am envisioning is a cheap infantry element that lets me unlock artillery and armor.
I see the logic in spending the points to give them weapons enough to actually do something. I am hesitant to add melta guns though as I don't plan on running them in a chimera and so they will be sitting back behind cover or an ADL babysitting tanks and maybe shooting a quadgun, so range would be helpful.

I am planning on either getting an LR Exterminator w/ HB's for high AV dakka, or going the Manticore/Medusa route for an artillery detachment.

Two areas in my list that could use bolstering are pure weight of fire (thus the dakka Exterminator) and long range firepower (I run Vindicators, so most of my force has to get to mid-range).

If I went the Exterminator route, I can see the logic in running melta vets and a PF commissar in a chimera to go with my mounted Tactical Marines and Vindicators already pushing up the board.

What would be a good setup for a decent line squad to man an ADL and babysit artillery?

Give them meltaguns AND lascannons, then. You don't want your tanks to be blown up by something scary because the bubblewrap couldn't throw the last wound or HP off of it.

And you've got to roll the cost of the infantry in to the cost of the armor. If you take bare bones infantry, you're going to spend 270 points for a bare bones leman russ and a couple of lasguns. That's a terrible value by any definition of the word.

Meanwhile, spending 385 for the proper gear, you get something that's only 115 points more expensive, but it comes with two multimeltas, a lascannon, two BS4 lascannons, and 3 BS4 meltaguns. Where else in your army can you get that kind of firepower for a hundred points?

If that is what you're going for I would say grab a battle box in terms of cost. You probably get more out of that than if you were to buy each box separately.

Then you could get your tank or w/e else and run a blob of 20 dudes to be behind the aegis along with it.

Have your PCS or CCS on the quad gun since they are BS4 and sit them on an objective or something. As far as I can see that would be the most cost (in terms of money) effective way of bringing allies to your list.

So for example,
For a line squad.
CCS w/ LC
Vets w/ Meltas/LC
then my choice of armor.

For an armored fist squad
Lord Commissar w/PF
Vets w/ Meltas
Chimera
then my choice of armor.

Do those setups have the right idea on making the HQ/Troops more than deadweight tax?

Would there be any sense in going cheap with GL's on the Vet line squad vs Meltas for the 15pt savings and the extra range?

UltraTacSgt wrote:So for example...

Either of those would be fine.

UltraTacSgt wrote:Would there be any sense in going cheap with GL's on the Vet line squad vs Meltas for the 15pt savings

Nope. Grenade launchers are basically just blast lasguns. No sense wasting points or weapon slots on them.

Actually, I could see an argument for a multilaser chimera+GLs+autocannon+primaris psyker unit for being annoying to fliers. Still, you'd be better off with other things for this role (for example, plasma guns), or other things in general.

Cheapest EFFECTIVE way of getting IG allies:

HQ: CCS, 4x melta guns. This goes in the Vendetta to give you a cheap and powerful tank killer.
Troops: veteran squad with 3x melta/plasma and LC, Harker, camo cloaks. More expensive than a naked squad, yes, but now you have a 2+ cover save sitting on your quad gun and holding an objective instead of just some useless bodies taking up points.
Fast: Vendetta. If you're taking IG you're taking one.

Total: 430 points.


Cheapest not-entirely-stupid way of getting IG allies:

HQ: primaris psyker.
Troops: veteran squad with 3x melta. HQ joins the squad and they go in the Vendetta.
Fast: Vendetta.

Total: 300 points.

This is cheaper than the first option, but not by a huge margin, and you get a much less effective contribution to your army. Only do this if you really need to save points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:
Actually, I could see an argument for a multilaser chimera+GLs+autocannon+primaris psyker unit for being annoying to fliers. Still, you'd be better off with other things for this role (for example, plasma guns), or other things in general.

Or you could take a melta unit and kill flyers. IMO that's more appealing than just annoying them.

 Peregrine wrote:
Cheapest EFFECTIVE way of getting IG allies:
Troops: veteran squad with 3x melta/plasma and LC, Harker, camo cloaks. More expensive than a naked squad, yes, but now you have a 2+ cover save sitting on your quad gun and holding an objective instead of just some useless bodies taking up points.

I understand the tactical thinking behind the Vendetta and packing a melta squad into one. Explain why the Harker vets though. Relentless and the Catachan Devils SR?

Now meltas are obviously a great choice on a mobile squad but are they really worth it w/ 12 inch range on a squad that will be primarily in a static role?

Does anyone ever use Bastonne for Bring it Down meltas?

Which role can a small infantry unit fill more effectively? Meltas in a transport (chimera/Vendetta) to close with the enemy quickly. Or a line squad that contributes ranged firepower while holding objectives, shooting a quadgun, and babysitting a firebase.

UltraTacSgt wrote:
Explain why the Harker vets though. Relentless and the Catachan Devils SR?

Because Harker gives the whole unit stealth, and camo cloaks give +1 to cover saves. This stacks for a total +2 to your cover saves, so if you have them behind an aegis line firing the quad gun (and holding an objective in objective games) you have a unit with a 2+ cover save. And you're not just passively holding objectives, you have a quad gun, an AC/LC, a HB, and three melta/plasma if anything comes too close.

Now meltas are obviously a great choice on a mobile squad but are they really worth it w/ 12 inch range on a squad that will be primarily in a static role?

Potentially. Instead of using the squad aggressively you use the melta as a "stay far away" warning to anything that might want to get in close and hurt the troops behind the squad.

Does anyone ever use Bastonne for Bring it Down meltas?

Too expensive. BiD makes the squad about 33% more effective, but at a 50% increase in point cost. Unless points or transport availability is a limiting factor you're usually better off just investing those points in a second melta squad.

Meltas in a transport (chimera/Vendetta) to close with the enemy quickly. Or a line squad that contributes ranged firepower while holding objectives, shooting a quadgun, and babysitting a firebase.

Depends on the situation.

But that's why I suggested option #1: the CCS rides in the Vendetta and gives you melta, while the veterans sit on the objective. Since allies only get one Vendetta that's the most efficient use of the mandatory HQ and troops.

 Xadakk wrote:
If I'm not mistaken you don't need the HQ and troops. You can just pick and pull from the chart. You can just take 3 vendettas squadroned if you want.

you are HORRIBLY mistaken. Read your rulebook.

Cheapest way to do this, OP? Lord Commisar, one unit of Vets (use plastic cadians). Altough to be fair, with finecast prices the guard command box is only VERY SLIGHTLY more expensive than the single lord commisar model, and gives you more cool weapons, and access to ORDERS.

Cheesedoodler wrote:

 Xadakk wrote:
If I'm not mistaken you don't need the HQ and troops. You can just pick and pull from the chart. You can just take 3 vendettas squadroned if you want.

you are HORRIBLY mistaken. Read your rulebook.

Cheapest way to do this, OP? Lord Commisar, one unit of Vets (use plastic cadians). Altough to be fair, with finecast prices the guard command box is only VERY SLIGHTLY more expensive than the single lord commisar model, and gives you more cool weapons, and access to ORDERS.

A Company Command Squad is 20 points less than a single Lord Commissar.

OP, go with a CCS and a Vet squad. As the above posters have said, giving them some kind of ranged guns (be it plasma or melta) plus Lascannons/ML's at your discretion are a good call.

thechosen1 wrote:

Cheesedoodler wrote:

 Xadakk wrote:
If I'm not mistaken you don't need the HQ and troops. You can just pick and pull from the chart. You can just take 3 vendettas squadroned if you want.

you are HORRIBLY mistaken. Read your rulebook.

Cheapest way to do this, OP? Lord Commisar, one unit of Vets (use plastic cadians). Altough to be fair, with finecast prices the guard command box is only VERY SLIGHTLY more expensive than the single lord commisar model, and gives you more cool weapons, and access to ORDERS.

A Company Command Squad is 20 points less than a single Lord Commissar.

OP, go with a CCS and a Vet squad. As the above posters have said, giving them some kind of ranged guns (be it plasma or melta) plus Lascannons/ML's at your discretion are a good call.

he was talking $$$ not points as the OP clearly made mention of money as one of his primary concerns

 Exergy wrote:


he was talking $$$ not points as the OP clearly made mention of money as one of his primary concerns

I am trying to balance spending real $$ and getting a unit that I can get good use out of. Mainly as an ally, but eventually as part of a legitimate IG army. That's why I am looking for something like a single vet squad and an HQ to go with a single strong piece of IG armor.

I'm willing to spend a bit more in points and money to get a unit that I will consistently field instead of realizing it blows and then putting it on the shelf to guard my spare change from the depredations of the xenos.

But yeah, not really looking for full infantry platoons or Valks, etc, (yet) as those are where the big price tag starts to kick in.

Thanks for all the input guys.

Penal Legion

No, I'm serious; try them. I run them with a Vendetta, CCS with 4 plasma in a Chimera & a Manticore in my CSM list which also has a Vindicator, LR with CSM squad, Juggerlord & 3 bikes, 3 Spawn, Maulerfiend, Heldrake & whatever else I have points for (troops usually). Everything I have goes charging across the board ASAP & lots of stuff gets shot up, but by turn 2 or 3 when the Penal Legion show up, they get ignored. So I stick them in terrain & let them go to ground in area terrain (3++) or ruins if I'm lucky for 2++.

Last 5 games, here's what they did:
1) Outflanked, got shot by Quad gun instead of the rest of my army. Survived at half strength & caused opponent to just send his HQ out of transport to assault them. Opps- my Vendetta vaporized him for Warlord point. Then they killed the techmarine & thunderfire cannon with a lucky 6. (rules read wrong I think) Lucky, but I'll take it.

2) Outflanked and took the opponent's quad gun away from his 5 henchmen & fired on his own army.

3) Outflanked & got assualted by DA bike squad. Do I care? No, they're stubborn so until he can slowly kill off the unit or Hit & Run, I can hold him up until Juggerlord arrives.

4) Relic Mission against opponent with Juggerlord of his own. Penal Legion redeploys up 6" & eventually assaults his blob squad. Custodian challenges his Juggerlord and gives my Spawn time to wipe out 20 attached cultists. Then Fearless Spawn stick in combat while Penal Legion fails Ld & falls back to claim Relic & jump into Land Raider.

5) Outflank & tie up scarabs, protecting my Land Raider for a few turns.

Is this normal? Maybe, but here's what they can do for 80 points:
- get you linebreaker.
- tie up units in combat because they are stubborn.
- protect your characters in CC by challenging with custodian.
- harass ADL guns.
- get you access to IG allies without breaking the bank.

How are you putting penal legion troopers into a land raider?

UltraTacSgt wrote:
But yeah, not really looking for full infantry platoons or Valks, etc, (yet) as those are where the big price tag starts to kick in.

If you aren't taking Vendettas then you're doing it wrong. Vendettas are the whole reason for taking IG allies.

How are you putting penal legion troopers into a land raider?

Oh damn; I cheated- forgot about that rule.

 InquisitorMack wrote:

How are you putting penal legion troopers into a land raider?

Oh damn; I cheated- forgot about that rule.

It's ok. I guess we can forgive you based on the fact that your from Massachusetts. Only state where one ways, red lights and green lights are all optional.

It's ok. I guess we can forgive you based on the fact that your from Massachusetts. Only state where one ways, red lights and green lights are all optional.

True that... well, I'm Jersey raised so I actually have no excuse.

In terms of dollars:

HQ: Primaris Psyker
TROOPS: 10x Veterans

Total Cost: ~$50 USD
Total Points: 140 - 155

 InquisitorMack wrote:

It's ok. I guess we can forgive you based on the fact that your from Massachusetts. Only state where one ways, red lights and green lights are all optional.

True that... well, I'm Jersey raised so I actually have no excuse.

I'm from Jersey also. I have never experienced road rage like I did the 5 years I lived in Boston. One guy stopped at a green light on comm ave to let someone cross. Once they crossed the light turned yellow and he just sat there with me blowing the horn at him. I pulled next to him and asked him why he didn't go through the light. His response was "it was turning yellow." I stated that the light will eventually always turn yellow.

Another time I got run off the road around the fens by a middle aged women who was fully committed to going the wrong way down the one way road. Sitting at green lights while oncoming traffic runs the red light is also fun.

Boston is like Camelot in monthy python's quest for the holy grail. It is a silly place, lets no go there again. Lol