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 Ghostcat wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If a Malediction uses blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’troll to hit then that Malediction cannot target them.

If we follow the FaQ.

And where does any malediction do any of those things?

Objuration Mechanicum is an attack that does damage to a vehicle. (It specifically says that the vehicle take a S1 hit with the Haywire rule).

For a flyer to take a hit you need to snap shot. Something that Maledictions do not usually do.

easysauce wrote:

Q: Can vehicles be targeted by malediction psychic powers?
(p68)
A: Yes, but some malediction powers (such as Hallucination)
have no effect on vehicles.

/thread

That actually settles nothing due to things that auto hit can not even hit a Zooming Flyer.

Nice try, but ultimately incorrect in some cases.

hard to hit doesnt forbid all damaging things, it only calls out by name
all three types of blast weapons, cannot hurt it,

only snap shots may be made against it, barring skyfire

the FAQ further states that

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any
weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically –
interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous
Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

note that, had they meant all psychic power types were banned, they would have said so instead of just naming the three types of special witchfire ones.

maleditions are not weapons, nor are they attacks, shooting or CC, so are not bound by those, different rules.

they can even be used on a target locked in CC, unlike the shooting attacks, or psychic shooting attacks,

they follow the steps on pg 66, not on 15-20,

so except for the named powers,

you can cast maledictions/blessings on flyers,
and resolve the results

 Ghostcat wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:The rules for maledictions on Page 68 clearly state that they do target one or more enemy units. So, no, they can not be used on flyers unless given explicit permission to do so.

easysauce wrote:

Q: Can vehicles be targeted by malediction psychic powers?
(p68)
A: Yes, but some malediction powers (such as Hallucination)
have no effect on vehicles.

/thread

/thread now

That settles nothing.

Some Malediction powers have no effect on vehicles like those that affect toughness.

Q:How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any
weapon...

Is the beginning of the faq entry denying flyers being hit by psychic attacks or other weapons that do not require a to hit roll.

Malediction is not mentioned and I think it is very significant to this argument. It is not a psychic shooting attack analogous to a weapon.

As a matter of fact, the FAQ answer continues to say that anything that does not roll to hit can not *target* flyers. Do maledictions roll to hit and do they target?

Maledictions can target flyers and FMCs, as they are neither weapons nor "attacks" they are not affected by Hard to Hit regardless of whether or not they cause a hit like Objuration Mechanicum. The FAQ everyone keeps quoting trying to say they can't specifically lists the psychic powers that cannot target flyers/FMCs, all of which are types of Witchfire powers. Stop splitting hairs, flyers are broken enough already, they don't need immunity to OM.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Maledictions can target flyers and FMCs, as they are neither weapons nor "attacks" they are not affected by Hard to Hit regardless of whether or not they cause a hit like Objuration Mechanicum.

Citation needed.

The FaQ says only snap shots can hit zooming Flyers.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Maledictions can target flyers and FMCs, as they are neither weapons nor "attacks" they are not affected by Hard to Hit regardless of whether or not they cause a hit like Objuration Mechanicum.

Citation needed.

The FaQ says only snap shots can hit zooming Flyers.

In reference to "any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically"
"Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas."

"Q: Can vehicles be targeted by malediction psychic powers?
A: Yes, but some malediction powers (such as Hallucination)
have no effect on vehicles."

Objuration Mechanicum is a malediction, so it can target vehicles, it is not an attack, weapon, maelstrom, beam, or nova power and is therefore not covered by the FAQ entry listing things that can't target flyers.

"Hard To Hit" p81, makes it clear that "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shot". Since p81 only calls out template, blast and large blast weapons, I took the FAQ to further clarify that other weapon types that do not use the BS of the firer and the normal To Hit procedure are also excluded from hitting flyers.

Since a Malediction is by definition not subject to the normal shooting rules (it's not a weapon, doesn't shoot, and isn't even resolved in the Shooting phase), the whole issue of Snap Shot is irrelevant, and therefore I'd conclude a Malediction can be used against a zooming flyer.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Ghostcat wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If a Malediction uses blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’troll to hit then that Malediction cannot target them.

If we follow the FaQ.

And where does any malediction do any of those things?

Objuration Mechanicum is an attack that does damage to a vehicle. (It specifically says that the vehicle take a S1 hit with the Haywire rule).

I would just like to point out that the rule actually says that the vehicle has a S1 w/ Haywire "allocated" to it, which is different from the vehicle actually suffering a/being hit.

PrinceRaven wrote:Maledictions can target flyers and FMCs, as they are neither weapons nor "attacks" they are not affected by Hard to Hit regardless of whether or not they cause a hit like Objuration Mechanicum. The FAQ everyone keeps quoting trying to say they can't specifically lists the psychic powers that cannot target flyers/FMCs, all of which are types of Witchfire powers. Stop splitting hairs, flyers are broken enough already, they don't need immunity to OM.

To say a malediction is not an attack is a fallacy. A malediction targets units and causes a negative effect, that's an attack. You and someone else (easysauce, I think) quoted the rule for vehicles being able to be affected by maledictions. Great, vehicles can. "Vehicles" is a LARGE section of units in the game and is a general group. Each vehicle type has it's own rules on top of the general rules followed by vehicles. Flyers are much more specific than "vehicles". But yes, vehicles can be affected by maledictions, but maledictions that do not roll to hit but do target units will not be able to hit flyers.

Snapshot wrote:"Hard To Hit" p81, makes it clear that "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shot". Since p81 only calls out template, blast and large blast weapons, I took the FAQ to further clarify that other weapon types that do not use the BS of the firer and the normal To Hit procedure are also excluded from hitting flyers.

Since a Malediction is by definition not subject to the normal shooting rules (it's not a weapon, doesn't shoot, and isn't even resolved in the Shooting phase), the whole issue of Snap Shot is irrelevant, and therefore I'd conclude a Malediction can be used against a zooming flyer.

Snapshots have no link to only the shooting phase, go check out the rule. Being in the shooting phase is not required for a shooting attack. Maledictions have a range and target, they're a shooting attack.

Think of it this way, if maledictions can hit flyers then so can imotekh's lightning.

 Kevin949 wrote:


Snapshots have no link to only the shooting phase, go check out the rule. Being in the shooting phase is not required for a shooting attack. Maledictions have a range and target, they're a shooting attack.

This is also a "fallacy."

The BRB clearly defines a "Malediction."

Just because a Malediction has similar properties to something else does not define it as that other thing.

This thread needs to be locked, we basically have two sides arguing in circles that'll never come to an agreement.

"Stop, you're all wrong." :-)

40k-noob wrote:
I would just like to point out that the rule actually says that the vehicle has a S1 w/ Haywire "allocated" to it, which is different from the vehicle actually suffering a/being hit.

It says each vehicle has a S1 hit w/ Haywire allocated to it. Subtle but important difference.

"each vehicle in the unit has a Strength 1 hit with the Haywire special rule allocated to it (roll separately for each)." P. 422 Telekinesis psychic power.

40k-noob wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:


Snapshots have no link to only the shooting phase, go check out the rule. Being in the shooting phase is not required for a shooting attack. Maledictions have a range and target, they're a shooting attack.

This is also a "fallacy."

The BRB clearly defines a "Malediction."

Just because a Malediction has similar properties to something else does not define it as that other thing.

Sorry, I meant that since they have a range and target, they're an "attack".

Maledictions are not shots, which is part of the reason why they are useable while in melee, and therefore can be used against any target they are allowed to target within their range.

Just because something causes a hit doesn't mean you roll to it, it's simply stating what the ability does.

For the power in question, you never roll to hit, you simply apply the effects of the power. The effects just so happen to be damaging.

 juraigamer wrote:
Just because something causes a hit doesn't mean you roll to it, it's simply stating what the ability does.

And "Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures."

If it causes hits and is not a snap shot, it can not hit a...

 juraigamer wrote:
Maledictions are not shots, which is part of the reason why they are useable while in melee, and therefore can be used against any target they are allowed to target within their range.

Just because something causes a hit doesn't mean you roll to it, it's simply stating what the ability does.

For the power in question, you never roll to hit, you simply apply the effects of the power. The effects just so happen to be damaging.

Unless there's an FAQ on it, maledictions can affect those in close combat but I don't see it saying you can use them when your psyker is in close combat. And the only reason it can do this is because it has permission to. To extend that reasoning beyond that is stretching to fit your agenda.

Given GW's broad language naming several types of attacks, and expanding it out to any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically, it seems that the FAQ is precluding any attack that doesn't roll to hit, which would include certain maledictions.

Not surprising, given GW's very pro-flier stance this edition.

 loreweaver wrote:
This thread needs to be locked, we basically have two sides arguing in circles that'll never come to an agreement.

"Stop, you're all wrong." :-)

Yup, I've made my point. I believe I am correct and nothing short of GW clarifying thier FAQ will sway me from my interpretation of the rules.

I see no convincing argument otherwise presented in this thread, and while I do understand the reasoning behind what I see as a mis-interpretation of the rules, I simply do not agree that Maledictions are defined as an attack or a weapon.

 Ghostcat wrote:

 loreweaver wrote:
This thread needs to be locked, we basically have two sides arguing in circles that'll never come to an agreement.

"Stop, you're all wrong." :-)

Yup, I've made my point. I believe I am correct and nothing short of GW clarifying thier FAQ will sway me from my interpretation of the rules.

I see no convincing argument otherwise presented in this thread, and while I do understand the reasoning behind what I see as a mis-interpretation of the rules, I simply do not agree that Maledictions are defined as an attack or a weapon.

Page 8 - A model normally needs line of sight whenever it
wishes to attack an enemy, whether with power sword, gun or
psychic power.

But it's cool, it's not an attack, so it can't hurt my guys. *Shrug*

Page 8 - A model normally needs line of sight whenever it
wishes to attack an enemy, whether with power sword, gun or
psychic power.

But it's cool, it's not an attack, so it can't hurt my guys. *Shrug*

Touche.

LoS does apply to Maledictions, but there are psychic powers that are refered to as psychic shooting attacks. While not an offical classification anymore, I don't think that the Malediction falls into the same category.

I think there is another refrence to psychic powers in the rulebook needing LOS unless otherwise stated, and it doesn't make a refernce to "attack". Don't have my rule book though so I cannot confirm.

Maledictions that are attribute modifers don't "hit" in the same sense a weapon does, IMO. The damage isn't direct and I see no idea why it would be included with a FAQ entry that does not specifically identify it.

But hey, I'm telling you how I play my games not how you should play yours.

/endmyparticipationinthisthread

 Kevin949 wrote:

PrinceRaven wrote:Maledictions can target flyers and FMCs, as they are neither weapons nor "attacks" they are not affected by Hard to Hit regardless of whether or not they cause a hit like Objuration Mechanicum. The FAQ everyone keeps quoting trying to say they can't specifically lists the psychic powers that cannot target flyers/FMCs, all of which are types of Witchfire powers. Stop splitting hairs, flyers are broken enough already, they don't need immunity to OM.

To say a malediction is not an attack is a fallacy. A malediction targets units and causes a negative effect, that's an attack. You and someone else (easysauce, I think) quoted the rule for vehicles being able to be affected by maledictions. Great, vehicles can. "Vehicles" is a LARGE section of units in the game and is a general group. Each vehicle type has it's own rules on top of the general rules followed by vehicles. Flyers are much more specific than "vehicles". But yes, vehicles can be affected by maledictions, but maledictions that do not roll to hit but do target units will not be able to hit flyers.

Snapshot wrote:"Hard To Hit" p81, makes it clear that "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shot". Since p81 only calls out template, blast and large blast weapons, I took the FAQ to further clarify that other weapon types that do not use the BS of the firer and the normal To Hit procedure are also excluded from hitting flyers.

Since a Malediction is by definition not subject to the normal shooting rules (it's not a weapon, doesn't shoot, and isn't even resolved in the Shooting phase), the whole issue of Snap Shot is irrelevant, and therefore I'd conclude a Malediction can be used against a zooming flyer.

Snapshots have no link to only the shooting phase, go check out the rule. Being in the shooting phase is not required for a shooting attack. Maledictions have a range and target, they're a shooting attack.

Think of it this way, if maledictions can hit flyers then so can imotekh's lightning.

I don't think I actually said Snap Shots can only occur in the Shooting phase, but rather was attempting to point out that Maledictions are out of the scope of the Snap Shot rule. They aren't shooting attacks (cf, witchfire attacks), they don't use BS To Hit, they don't use templates, they don't use any of the To Hit mechanisms called out in the clarify FAQ.

If you're making a shooting attack, it has to be able to Snap Shot to hit.

So, if the FAQ is doing more than clarifying the types of the attacks that cannot hit a Zooming flyer, I guess it is also impossible for one of your own psykers to cast a Blessing on one (eg, Presience).

Sorry I can't comment on Imotekh's Lightning as I don't have the codex. Having said that, I don't see why it shouldn't be able to hit a flyer - it's flying through a lightning storm afterall

PS. Can you cast Invisibility on a Flyer to give it Stealth and Shrouded? I thought flyers didn't get cover saves but can't find the reference.

 Kevin949 wrote:
To say a malediction is not an attack is a fallacy. A malediction targets units and causes a negative effect, that's an attack.
Snapshots have no link to only the shooting phase, go check out the rule. Being in the shooting phase is not required for a shooting attack.

Maledictions have a range and target, they're a shooting attack.

The rulebook is clear that all psychic shooting attacks are considered witchfire powers (which is why you can't overwatch psychic shooting attacks in pre-6th codices that don't specify that they're witchfire), is a malediction a witchfire? No? Then it's not a shooting attack.

"If the witchfire does not list a subtype, or simply describes itself a psychic shooting attack, use the rules given above to resolve it." pg. 69

And yes while in the English language something as vague as making an insulting remark can be considered an attack, the rules for warhammer 40k are much stricter, things that are attacks are clearly listed as such and follow rules for whatever attack they are, everything else (like blessing, maledictions, banners, wings, special rules that do not specify they are attacks, wargear, bases, the pictures of Matt Ward) are not.

The problem is that the FAQ is poorly worded, in response to a question specifically about weapons and attacks, they respond "Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Flying Monstrous Creatures" If you look at the question as a whole it would seem to appliy only to weapons and attacks, but people are quoting it out of context.

 PrinceRaven wrote:


And yes while in the English language something as vague as making an insulting remark can be considered an attack, the rules for warhammer 40k are much stricter, things that are attacks are clearly listed as such and follow rules for whatever attack they are, everything else (like blessing, maledictions, banners, wings, special rules, wargear, bases, the pictures of Matt Ward) are not.

So models do not use the Hammer of Wrath special rule to attack?

Special rules can be attacks.

Maledictions can be attacks. Enfeeble is used to attack the enemy giving the enemy unit a debuff.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:


And yes while in the English language something as vague as making an insulting remark can be considered an attack, the rules for warhammer 40k are much stricter, things that are attacks are clearly listed as such and follow rules for whatever attack they are, everything else (like blessing, maledictions, banners, wings, special rules, wargear, bases, the pictures of Matt Ward) are not.

So models do not use the Hammer of Wrath special rule to attack?

Special rules can be attacks.

Maledictions can be attacks. Enfeeble is used to attack the enemy giving the enemy unit a debuff.

Caught me there, fixed it.

Enfeeble is not an attack, you said it yourself, it's a debuff. You don't attack your enemy with a debuff, you debuff them with it. Do you attack your units with blessings like Endurance, no, you buff them. Therefore maledictions and blessings clearly aren't attacks.

A debuff fits the description of an attack.

It's an issue of semantics if we want to talk about whether it counts as an attack in the English language, (or other languages even) but what's important is that it doesn't in terms of the 40k rules.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
It's an issue of semantics if we want to talk about whether it counts as an attack in the English language, (or other languages even) but what's important is that it doesn't in terms of the 40k rules.

It does not count as an 'Attack' in 40K terms, but it does count as an 'attack'.

The use Attack when they are talking about defined Attacks in the 40k BRB.

'attacks' is a general English term that is not defined by the BRB therefore we have to apply the common English definition to it.

'Attack' and 'attack' - there is no difference

malediction is not an attack in any terms it is a debuff
and debuff isn't an attack in any case

but there is one thing that permits OM to deal damage to zooming flyer:
If you can read this "A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures" as :" Only Hits which are made by Snap Shots can literally hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures or this hit will be ignored" i other words they always MUST(!) be Hit by Snap Shot to take any damage
Then in this case Hit cased by OM should be ignored as long as it is not done by Snap Shot rule

 DeathReaper wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
Just because something causes a hit doesn't mean you roll to it, it's simply stating what the ability does.

And "Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures."

If it causes hits and is not a snap shot, it can not hit a...

Not only snap shots can hit zooming flyers and swooping flying monstrous creatures. ''Shots are resolved at such a target can only be resolved as snap shots unless the model or weapon has the skyfire special rule'' RAW p.49

1st the rule is about ''shots'' not ''hits''
2nd the rule specifies snap shots from ''model or weapon'' and the hits from a ''malediction'' are not hits from a ''model or weapon'', they are from a ''malediction''
3rd the rule specifies what cannot ''hit swooping models'' and it specifies that it is ''template, blast and large blast'', it doesn't say anything about auto-hit from powers.

Just wanted to add all that stuff in the favor of ''maledictions can be used agaisnt flyers''

BTW, the core of my army is the Heldrake, so everything that makes flyer better makes me happier, but here it's clearly not something going to make me happier. I just bring the truth the Emperor wants to communicate via me.

The FAQ is more specific - and that's what DR is referencing.