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Yup, its been throughly demonstrated since the original blurb that bolters have casings. Caseless went the way of the dodo, along with the Half-eldar Ultramarine Librarian.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yup, its been throughly demonstrated since the original blurb that bolters have casings. Caseless went the way of the dodo, along with the Half-eldar Ultramarine Librarian.

You mean executed then!

As for actual Bolter specifications, it is important to note there are many variants of the standard "boltgun," such as the .998 calibre "Godwyn Pattern" used in the Space Marine game.

Using that as a base however, the shots clearly do experience a small detonation a fraction of a second after impact, and do, from time to time, blow chunks of Ork off, such as heads in particular. Relic did pay a lot of attention to how a Bolter performs, and created what I'd consider a pretty realistic medium; kills regular stuff dead, but Nobs and Power Armour shrug it off pretty easily.

Really makes me pity my poor guardsmen that much more.

As for the fluff of Marines wrecking planets without resupply, it is best to just consider that the author is leaving out the boring resupply sections. The whole reason in the fluff why bolters aren't used more heavly is logistics; resupplying guardsmen with that many bullets would be...difficult, but keeping 1000 air and space mobile marines well supplied is much easier, either from drop pods, rhinos, razorbacks, thunderhawks and so on.

Heck, chances are most of a Battlebarge or Strike Cruiser's internal space is comitted to munitions; 1000 marines and their associated support forces and vehicle drivers aren't goign to make much of a dent space-wise in a multi-km warship, so they're probably loaded with munitions, munitions delivery systems and the means to produce more munitions while in-theatre.

 Psienesis wrote:

And then there is the belt-fed Heavy Bolters, which will require a case to fit into the belt-linkages so they can be pulled through the feed mechanism. Can't do that with a caseless round.

Not saying you're wrong, but given the operation of a belt-fed machine gun, it is possible. Just very unlikely. They aren't really pulled(depends on the "machine gun") more of pushed into the chamber. If it just strips it and pushes it into place against the firing mechanism it would work okay. Depends on the Heavy Bolters we are dealing with(IG ones are left-feed guns, and space marine ones are bottom fed), though the should still work the same, you just rotate the feedpaws/feed mechanisms counter clockwise, if that makes any sense. I have always been curious as to where the links are ejected from in either case. Its not modeled usually from what I've seen, maybe I need to take another look. Maybe it's similar to the Mk19, it doesn't strip the rounds off the links, just feeds the whole thing in including the links, and spits them out as one.

I've always found the Bolter/Boltgun to be an interesting weapon system based on its fluff. What rocks harder than a firearm that shoots a round, and is then further propelled by a rocket booster, which explodes when it hits a fleshy target? Uh, nothing? Closest thing we currently have are grenade launchers(however I don't know what it really takes to cause those rounds to detonate when they hit a "soft target").

Obviously our proportions are way off given the scale of the game, so its hard to justify how some of this crap really works. Its kind of like looking at a Leman Russ turret. Its fairly short, and given the size of the cannon, and crew placement(the commander is literally RIGHT behind what would be the breech of the gun), how would it load and eject rounds? I'm not a tanker, but what about recoil management? does it reciprocate backwards like most modern cannons do? Not trying to drive us off topic, I'm just sayin'.

In dealing with boltguns/pistols that have short barrels, its reasonable to say that the entire flash hider/muzzle break is rifled, and the holes on the sides are where the rocket booster engages, to help it maintain accuracy(since i doubt the rounds are fin-stabilized), without blasting tons of excess gas/propellants backwards toward the user.

Depends on the grenade, though most of them operate with a fuse ignited when the round is launched. Some are impact-detonated. Others have a "wind-up" fuse that is initiated as the round spins through the air from the rifling (many mortars operate under this type of fuse, too, and the "wind up" starts winding the other way as it begins its descent from the apex of its trajectory, and then explodes)... while the 40mm shotgun shell is just that... a 40mm shotgun shell designed for the M203. Simple powder explosion throws a massive cloud of steel shot forward from the muzzle and will absolutely pulverize anyone caught in the blast.

 Psienesis wrote:
Depends on the grenade, though most of them operate with a fuse ignited when the round is launched. Some are impact-detonated. Others have a "wind-up" fuse that is initiated as the round spins through the air from the rifling (many mortars operate under this type of fuse, too, and the "wind up" starts winding the other way as it begins its descent from the apex of its trajectory, and then explodes)... while the 40mm shotgun shell is just that... a 40mm shotgun shell designed for the M203. Simple powder explosion throws a massive cloud of steel shot forward from the muzzle and will absolutely pulverize anyone caught in the blast.

Most 40mm grenades have a fused based on a certain number of rotations achieved under a specific g-force requirement. It is roughly 35 meters...however many rotations that is I do not know. It then requires the impact to set it off. What parameters that impact are set at I do not know(ie how hard of an object must it hit to force the detonation). Mortar rounds I know jack about, since I'm not a mortarman.This is just my experience and what I have been taught, I have only fired a few live 40mm HEDP grenades. From my understanding you can fire 433 HEDP right at your feet and it won't detonate. I don't really care to test that out, since UXO(Unexploded Ordinance) and the like scare the beejeezuz out of me(almost stepped on some the other day, scared the crap out of me at first ). Some AT weapons work on the same principal (M136 AT4, and some RPG rounds).

Selym wrote:Add to that the fact that many chaos bolters have chain-fed ammo, and that all boltguns have the thingy to expel cartriges..

Granted, the latter could be argued to be just for clearing jammed rounds, or unloading. At least I've seen the argument being made.

MajorStoffer wrote:As for actual Bolter specifications, it is important to note there are many variants of the standard "boltgun," such as the .998 calibre "Godwyn Pattern" used in the Space Marine game.

Do they really say .998 calibre? I see a lot of fans mentioning this, but the original GW material specifies:

"998. model bolter: Godwyn pattern with ammo counter, sinister/dexter locking mechanism and sickle magazine containing 30 rounds of .75 calibre bolts with diamantine tips, depleted deuterium core & mass reactive detonators. Fires in 4 round bursts."
- Marine 'dex p.11

"998" is a model number. Here is a "model 482". But if one of the THQ designers misread the original description and thought that's the calibre it'd explain a certain amount of confusion.
And it's a good example on the conflicting fluff I mentioned earlier!

MajorStoffer wrote:1000 marines and their associated support forces and vehicle drivers

... let's not get into that again, tho - we just had a thread on this subject a month ago.
But anyone 's free to PM me if they want me to repeat what GW fluff actually says on the subject.

Firehead158 wrote:I've always found the Bolter/Boltgun to be an interesting weapon system based on its fluff. What rocks harder than a firearm that shoots a round, and is then further propelled by a rocket booster, which explodes when it hits a fleshy target? Uh, nothing? Closest thing we currently have are grenade launchers (however I don't know what it really takes to cause those rounds to detonate when they hit a "soft target").

Personally, I'd say an AA12 with HE-AP rounds. All it's missing is the rocket motor ... and of course we'd need to get rid of the fins.

 Lynata wrote:

Tower75 wrote:This also got me thinking, as the magazine of a bolt pistol is basically underneath the barrel, does the barrel actually work as a chamber? I mean, a breech-bolt would strip a round from the mag and chamber it ahead of the magazine but the only place I can see the round being chambered into is directly into the barrel itself. I dunno, maybe the bolt pistol fires from an open bolt configuration.

I think the barrel may just be really short. It needs to be a chamber to actually take the round as well as eject the casing, doesn't it? From what I've read, both chamber and barrel pretty much merge into one another, anyways. Isn't it just a matter of definition?

I know it's not really in keeping with the OP, but no, a chamber and barrel are not a matter of definition. A chamber is a chamber, and a barrel is a barrel. In the firearm world those two definitions can never be interchanged.

However, upon saying that, I know what you mean, the round is chambered into the breech of the barrel; the chamber, and fired down the barrel. It just so happens that the chamber and barrel are so damn short that the latter might as well not be there.

Speaking of bolter calibre/diameter, I remember reading somewhere (yeah, 'cos that counts ) that the standard Astartes bolter/bolt-pistol is chambered for a .75 bolt, but the heavy bolters are chambered for a 1.0 calibre bolt. Has anyone else seen this?

In the "Space Marine" computer game, it does say that the Godwyn bolter fires .998 calibre bolts.

Ah... inconsistency, it's almost sexual in it's frustration...

Speaking of bolter calibre/diameter, I remember reading somewhere (yeah, 'cos that counts ) that the standard Astartes bolter/bolt-pistol is chambered for a .75 bolt, but the heavy bolters are chambered for a 1.0 calibre bolt. Has anyone else seen this?

Sounds right. One of those things that seems to be something I've always known, so putting a finger down on its original source is hard. I believe this information is also re-printed in the FFG games, though their bolters are sadly under-performing.

The 0.75 to 1.0 calibre thing came in on Dawn of War I think. The original fluff for the Bolter was that all bolt weapons used the same calibre round so ammo was totally interchangable.

Nah, it might have been brought up again in DoW, but even at the time, it seemed right to me, and, to me, DoW is the "new kid on the block" as far as 40k spin-offs are concerned.

 Phosis T'Kar Jr wrote:
I was looking through the SM codex and reading a few books- and I'm interested about something. They say that bolter rounds are mass-reactive (explosive). So in accordance to what I know- If I was shot in the chest by a bolter, would I blow up? Or, is there going to be a huge hole in my chest?

Playing the Warhammer40k: Space Marine Game shows that bolter rounds are not that explosive......But in 'Wrath of Iron' they describe the victims as blowing up like 'walking grenades'-or is that an exaggeration?

Your views on this?

Never use a video game as an example of how to properly depict something. Mass market video games are constructed in order to have mechanics that create an enjoyable playing experience, not in order to accurately simulate the source material. That said, the Orks do explode in the game, though only after you've hit them a few times. Why? Because it would be a pretty easy game if they died in one hit, or it would be remarkably frustrating to hit them and play much slower. It's an arcade shooter. Run forward, kill things, collect power ups, kill more things.


The bolt itself has always been described as being designed for sub-surface detonation to enhance its armor defeating properties. If it detonated on impact, it would be less useful against hard-armored targets as most of the blast would be deflected away from the target.

What is most likely to happen, if a bolt round was real, would be a violent explosion from within, and a wound characteristic of how deep it penetrates before exploding.

There's a ridiculous about of scientific theory about how this would functionally happen, and none of it fits within the TL : DR nature of the Internet.

So no, you wouldn't explode. The warhead isn't that big. However, the "huge hole" idea could vary depending on how deep it penetrates before detonating. Honestly, the warhead on the bolt round doesn't need to be that powerful. Even a small detonation would pulp enough of your squishy bits to be fatal.

Tower75 wrote:Speaking of bolter calibre/diameter, I remember reading somewhere (yeah, 'cos that counts ) that the standard Astartes bolter/bolt-pistol is chambered for a .75 bolt, but the heavy bolters are chambered for a 1.0 calibre bolt. Has anyone else seen this?

The calibre 1.00 bit seems to be rather common, although I don't recall ever seeing it in a GW source. Mostly it's licensed stuff like FFG's RPG or (if I remember correctly) the Munitorum Manual. It sounds fitting enough given a weapon size comparison, so for my own interpretation of the setting I'm running with that number as well until I see something else from the studio. All I could find in Codex fluff was "fist-sized shells", but I take that to refer to the length of the projectile rather than diameter.

Visual references:

Psienesis wrote:though their bolters are sadly under-performing.

Unless you're playing a Space Marine; for whatever reason those get to play with bolters +1 (or rather +6, to be precise).

Flinty wrote:The 0.75 to 1.0 calibre thing came in on Dawn of War I think. The original fluff for the Bolter was that all bolt weapons used the same calibre round so ammo was totally interchangable.

Heavy bolters were said to used larger ammunition as early as in the 2E Wargear book. Then again, might just as well be a conflict between different sources. This is 40k, after all.

 Lynata wrote:

Flinty wrote:The 0.75 to 1.0 calibre thing came in on Dawn of War I think. The original fluff for the Bolter was that all bolt weapons used the same calibre round so ammo was totally interchangable.

Heavy bolters were said to used larger ammunition as early as in the 2E Wargear book. Then again, might just as well be a conflict between different sources. This is 40k, after all.

You are indeed correct, sir. Even the Rogue Trader book doesn't have the reference I remembered... I wonder if I dreamed it

[qu"The bolt contains an armour piercing tip, an explosive and a mass-reactive detonator. It is shot from the barrel under low velocity, its own propellant igniting once the missile is clear of the barrel. The explosive detonates only when it has pierced armour. Any sudden increase in local mass activates the explosive and blows the target apart from the inside."
- 2E Wargear Book

This tread's got me thinking. As bolts are self-propelled rockets, would that mean, visually, that all bolts are tracers?

Not necessarily. They could easily be smokeless and give off no light.

Tower75 wrote:This tread's got me thinking. As bolts are self-propelled rockets, would that mean, visually, that all bolts are tracers?

Grey Templar wrote:Not necessarily. They could easily be smokeless and give off no light.

As much as it doesn't matter, bolter rounds in the Space Marine game leave smoke trails for a short time, making them tracers

 Grey Templar wrote:
They have a sensor that makes them detonate when they have penetrated a target(Mass-reactive: they react to mass)

If you, a human(or an Ork, eldar, nid) is hit by a bolter round it will explode.



With the size of a bolt round, your chest will probably cease to exist. Maybe a few strips of flesh and bone will remain to bind your limbs together. Your head, if hit, would disappear in red mist.

If its a limb, the bolt might go all the way through before it could explode, but your arm/leg would be amputated. We are talking about .75 caliber rounds.


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 Ascalam wrote:
Ork flesh is ridiculous tough and dense, to be sure

Also it depends on who is writing the book/making the game.

You have everything from a SMG with a little more kick to grenades that embed into your stomach cavity then turn you into red mist.

Another important note is that while bolter clips only hold about 10 shots of the monstrously huge ammo, they never run out unless the plot requires it

(SM game aside, though i think the pistol has infinite shots still)

30 rounds, and its called a magazine. not a clip.

Yoou know in space marine the game it says the bolter is a .998 caliber... i think the ammo changes bassed on the pattern of bolter

That doesn't make much sense in-universe, and is probably just a studio goof/transcription error.

 Ascalam wrote:

Whatever. The bolt pistol has a clip, the bolter has a mag. Either way it's a holy box o' bolts.

Pistols also have magazines. A clip is this:



Calling pistol magazine "clips" is slang derived from rap videos.

 Omegus wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:

Whatever. The bolt pistol has a clip, the bolter has a mag. Either way it's a holy box o' bolts.

Pistols also have magazines. A clip is this:



Calling pistol magazine "clips" is slang derived from rap videos.

sometimes Ammo comes in clips like the picture above and you would load the magazine from the clip, unless you had an older style rifle with a built in magazine then you would load straight from the clip into the the weapons magazine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clip_%28ammunition%29

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, the sculpts are out of proportion.

Bolters are .75 caliber and have been for the longest time.

Yep.

Boltguns and boltpistols are .75 caliber, and heavy bolters are 1.00 caliber.

While that is undoubtedly a big round, it's not impossibly big. It's comparable to shotguns, IIRC.

 Tower75 wrote:
Yay. Another "gun" argumen- er, discussion

I've read somewhere that bolt-weapons are smooth-bore, if that is the case, I assume that the bolt itself spins upon its own jet thrust, and thus stabilising itself in flight, like a rifled-slug from a shotgun, though minus the jets .
Otherwise, unless a bolt is fin-stabilised - and we know it's not, you wouldn't be able to hit anything with them as without rifling in its barrel the bolt would tumble and have naff-all accuracy.

On thing that's bugged me is that bolt pistols have their magazine housing mounted almost immediately behind their short barrels. This lends itself to the idea that the bolt spins and stabilises itself in flight, as it wouldn't need a long barrel to do that for it, of course a longer barrel is still more accurate then a short one.

This also got me thinking, as the magazine of a bolt pistol is basically underneath the barrel, does the barrel actually work as a chamber? I mean, a breech-bolt would strip a round from the mag and chamber it ahead of the magazine but the only place I can see the round being chambered into is directly into the barrel itself. I dunno, maybe the bolt pistol fires from an open bolt configuration.

Also, a smooth bore barrel would lend itself to reducing recoil. Of course, have a firearm that fires a rocket would still have some ooompth to it, though not as much as if that rocket had to forced its way down a rifled barrel.

Too answer your question it works like a Grenade Launcher mixed with a Gyrojet gun http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrojet

Platypus12 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
They have a sensor that makes them detonate when they have penetrated a target(Mass-reactive: they react to mass)

If you, a human(or an Ork, eldar, nid) is hit by a bolter round it will explode.



With the size of a bolt round, your chest will probably cease to exist. Maybe a few strips of flesh and bone will remain to bind your limbs together. Your head, if hit, would disappear in red mist.

If its a limb, the bolt might go all the way through before it could explode, but your arm/leg would be amputated. We are talking about .75 caliber rounds.


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 Ascalam wrote:
Ork flesh is ridiculous tough and dense, to be sure

Also it depends on who is writing the book/making the game.

You have everything from a SMG with a little more kick to grenades that embed into your stomach cavity then turn you into red mist.

Another important note is that while bolter clips only hold about 10 shots of the monstrously huge ammo, they never run out unless the plot requires it

(SM game aside, though i think the pistol has infinite shots still)

30 rounds, and its called a magazine. not a clip.

Yoou know in space marine the game it says the bolter is a .998 caliber... i think the ammo changes bassed on the pattern of bolter

Which is a mistake.

Its actually a Godwyn .998 pattern bolter. Its the pattern number not the caliber.

 Melissia wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, the sculpts are out of proportion.

Bolters are .75 caliber and have been for the longest time.

Yep.

Boltguns and boltpistols are .75 caliber, and heavy bolters are 1.00 caliber.

While that is undoubtedly a big round, it's not impossibly big. It's comparable to shotguns, IIRC.

Indeed, its 50% larger than a .50 cal. And thats a huge round.

The pattern number is the year it was made.

A year in the Imperial calendar might go something like M41.027-- indicating Millennium 41, year 27.


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 Grey Templar wrote:
Indeed, its 50% larger than a .50 cal. And thats a huge round.

Nah, caliber is just the thickness, not necessarily the length. Just cause two bullets/shells/etc are the same thickness doesn't mean that they can be used in the same weapon.

 Melissia wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, the sculpts are out of proportion.

Bolters are .75 caliber and have been for the longest time.

Yep.

Boltguns and boltpistols are .75 caliber, and heavy bolters are 1.00 caliber.

While that is undoubtedly a big round, it's not impossibly big. It's comparable to shotguns, IIRC.

see a .75 caliber round is a 20MM. I've held a 20mm and a 12 gauge.. The 20mm is significantly larger.

Comperable, not equivilant.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Comperable, not equivilant.

That's like saying a dog and a horse are comparable.