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I mean if there are 30 in the unit to begin with. There isnt anything taking them out, I just meant unit of 30 initially. Also Quarrellers against Ironguts probably wouldnt go well, even having shot. Though most things dont go well against Ironguts.

If there are 30 to begin with, there's a pretty good chance you lose most of the back rank before you get to strike. Hammerers are a solid unit, but WS5 T4 with 5+ armor isn't going to win them any awards. Every model they kill is a potential attack lost. If they kill 10, there's no longer a point for them to be in horde formation. If you've got them 10x4, they can kill 10 in the unit without removing attacks in combat. A horde of Hammerers is going to merit the enemy's Hammer Unit against them. Most army's hammer units will kill 7 or 8 before you get to swing.

 PinkSpaceHippy wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Mountain-Breaker wrote:
Yeah exactly. I think if there are 30 though, and they are in combat after the opposing unit has been shot up a bit, they will fare quite well, and there may be no need for 40.

I'm just curious what's taking out 10 dwarves in melee before they swing.
Those Quarrellers go toe to toe with 8 iron guts and break even.

If they get to shoot at all, they come out well ahead.

-Matt

As a WoC player, almost everything I'm taking will probably kill at least 8 dwarfs on the turn they charge, if not more.

Halberd warriors are good for ~8.
Marauder horde with flail is good for 15 kills on the charge.
Chariots are under that count.
Monsters shouldn't see combat (massed warmachines).
Monstrous infantry with great weapons (Ogres/Dragon Ogres) take it as much as they give.
Against anything except monsters, the crossbows do quite a bit of damage. One volley at long range and a stand and fire is enough to put the Quarrellers over to the top of most chaos units of similar value (~400 points). Anything of higher value draws help from warmachines.

-Matt

Mainly my focus is on the attacking unit already being down, because they have been shot at. An Organ Gun behind the Hammerers instead of the extra rank, may not help when actually in combat because there is no extra rank, but the enemy will be down multiple wounds by the time the combat begins, giving the Hammerers an advantage.

Mountain-Breaker wrote:
I mean if there are 30 in the unit to begin with. There isnt anything taking them out, I just meant unit of 30 initially. Also Quarrellers against Ironguts probably wouldnt go well, even having shot. Though most things dont go well against Ironguts.

It's isn't as bad as it looks.
Iron Guts get 4 S5 impact hits, 3+ to wound = 2.66 wounds (call it 3)
Then at ASL, Quarrellers get 27 S5 attacks, hitting and wounding on 3's = 12 wounds.
Iron Guts get 24 S6 attacks, hitting on 3's wounding on 2's = 10 wounds.
Iron Guts get 4 stomps, wounding on 4's = 2 wounds.

Iron guts come in with 15 wounds, vs the Dwarf 12.
Dwarf have a rank still, making them steadfast.
After the first round, with impact hits, half of the ogres, and half of the dwarves are dead.
Round 2 sees the the dwarves breaking even, and keeping steadfast.
Round 3 sees the ogres drop.
Each round of the fight, it's really close to even, with the advantage going to dwarves due to steadfast. That's without them shooting.


Running if the dwarves get to shoot at all, it's bad for the Ironguts.
1 shot at long range, and 1 stand and fire is 40 shots, hitting on 5's, wounding on 4's, saving on 6's. ~6 wounds.
Now the ogres come into the fight with S4 impact hits, and 6 less attacks.

4 impacts = 2 dead.
18 attacks = 7.5 dead.
28 Dwarf attacks = 12.4 wounds
4 stomps = 2 dead.
Ogres do 11.5, Dwarfs do 12.4
Ogres have a charge, Dwarves have a rank.
On average, the ogres are beat by 1, when they charged.

If the Dwarfs go first, they are likely to get a shot at long, a shot at short, and a stand and fire.
That's 9 to 10 wounds to the ogres on the way in.

Quarrellers are an exceptionally good deal for dwarves. Any unit that can hold vs Ironguts is a good choice. Any unit that can also dish out 40-80 S4 shots over the course of a game on top of that is exceptional.

Think of Quarrellers like this.
They are warriors with great weapons. You then pay 90 points to upgrade to get 20 S4 shots at turn.
That's a hell of a good deal.

-Matt

You're counting a lot on shooting. Dwarf shooting is good, but you've gotta do well to bring down a lot of the tougher hammers out there. Most heavy cavalry have a 1+ armor save, so even when you wound with the organ gun them they're still saving half.

I suppose I understand how it can go with the Ironguts and such. And there is a lot of shooting being counted on, for the first 2-3 turns of the game, enemies will just be running across a killing field. I understand that most hammers are tough. But S5 -3 armour save on opposing infantry is pretty good. I also agree on the part with Quarrellers value for points, its a damn good deal.

It also relies upon what target you shoot at, obviously. But my objective would be to take out cavalry and heavy stuff with Cannons, and widdle down infantry with Organ Guns so the Hammerers can get through them faster, making them available to be used elsewhere.

 PinkSpaceHippy wrote:
You're counting a lot on shooting. Dwarf shooting is good, but you've gotta do well to bring down a lot of the tougher hammers out there. Most heavy cavalry have a 1+ armor save, so even when you wound with the organ gun them they're still saving half.

Cannons instantly kill most heavy cacalry models, same goes for Speat Throwers.

Yeah this is what I am thinking. Two Cannons taking on, really any cavalry, will take them out with ease, for the most part.

Two cannons can only kill so much. Your best case scenario is getting first turn and getting two rounds of shooting before they hit you. If they get first turn, count on just one round. Even with an organ gun, if they have two units coming for you, that makes it that much worse.

 PinkSpaceHippy wrote:
Two cannons can only kill so much. Your best case scenario is getting first turn and getting two rounds of shooting before they hit you. If they get first turn, count on just one round. Even with an organ gun, if they have two units coming for you, that makes it that much worse.

Are you deploying your cannons forward?
Place them as far back as you can, and you're 3" from your table edge. If your opponent deploys 12" forward, you're still 33" away.
A 14" march leaves him 19" out, meaning M7 cav is looking at needing a pair of 6's to make a turn 2 charge.
M8 cav would need to roll a 10, which is unlikely, even with swift strider.
Flyers are the problem, after 1 movement phase, they are 13" out, making it almost impossible to fail the turn 2 charge.
Worst Case, you should get 2 shots a game if you go 2nd, 3 if you go first.

Or, just deploy behind infantry blocks and make the cav come around the corners.

If you split your cannons between your flanks, anything rushing one cannon is giving a flank shot to the other cannon.
Flyers can be grounded with the anvil. If you take extra crew, you got a good shot at winning combat against many light flying units (harpies, fell bats, carrion, furies).

Of course, all this is in a vacuum, terrain will block line of sight and disrupt movement, working both for and against you.

My experience with cannons has taught me always count on 1 cannon doing nothing. It will misfire, under shoot, or fail to wound. If one is good, two is better and three is best. I believe that the Rule of Three for runes also applies to warmachines. You want 3. Actually, you want 6; but you're only allowed 3.

-Matt

I completely agree. I recently modified one of my lists have an additional 3rd Cannon. Though I am debating on having two Cannons and two Organ Organ Guns, or three Cannons and 1 Organ Gun. Also the additon of more war machines does make my infantry blocks smaller, but only by a little bit.

And of course, threre is whether or not add more Quarrellers/Thunderers.

But I also agree on the distances. Backset Cannons are always best, though I have considered setting Organ Guns up slightly further.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 PinkSpaceHippy wrote:
Two cannons can only kill so much. Your best case scenario is getting first turn and getting two rounds of shooting before they hit you. If they get first turn, count on just one round. Even with an organ gun, if they have two units coming for you, that makes it that much worse.

Are you deploying your cannons forward?
Place them as far back as you can, and you're 3" from your table edge. If your opponent deploys 12" forward, you're still 33" away.
A 14" march leaves him 19" out, meaning M7 cav is looking at needing a pair of 6's to make a turn 2 charge.
M8 cav would need to roll a 10, which is unlikely, even with swift strider.
Flyers are the problem, after 1 movement phase, they are 13" out, making it almost impossible to fail the turn 2 charge.
Worst Case, you should get 2 shots a game if you go 2nd, 3 if you go first.

Or, just deploy behind infantry blocks and make the cav come around the corners.

If you split your cannons between your flanks, anything rushing one cannon is giving a flank shot to the other cannon.
Flyers can be grounded with the anvil. If you take extra crew, you got a good shot at winning combat against many light flying units (harpies, fell bats, carrion, furies).

Of course, all this is in a vacuum, terrain will block line of sight and disrupt movement, working both for and against you.

My experience with cannons has taught me always count on 1 cannon doing nothing. It will misfire, under shoot, or fail to wound. If one is good, two is better and three is best. I believe that the Rule of Three for runes also applies to warmachines. You want 3. Actually, you want 6; but you're only allowed 3.

-Matt

Not combat with the cannons, combat with anything else. Your other units. Most cavalry are M7 or M8. Even for M7, first turn movements put them 14" over, leaving 19" to your cannons 3" from the back of the board. It's a hell of a stretch, but that's within charge range. If they're M8, then turn one they're 16" across with 17" left, need 9 on the charge. If they're flying, they'll only need a 3 on their charge roll for turn 2. Unless you plan on flattening your entire army against the back of the board (don't recommend), you're going to be getting charged on turn 2. But you're going to want something in front of those cannons to protect them. Your'e going to see combat on turn two unless they're running a foot-slogging list of nothing but infantry. When building a list, worry more about what you'll need to do in unfavorable matchups than you worry about how itp lays in the favorable ones.

I can see cavalry and flyers being a threat that early on in some cases. And especially with some good rolls. Speaking of unfavorable match ups, I was thinking about not really bothering too much with infantry and focusing more on cavalry and lords and heroes, which will inevitibly become a problem later. As it was said earlier above, I am going to try the 3 Cannon set up, keeping the 2 Organ Guns. I think this will offer plenty of time and opportunity to fire on what is going to cause problems later on. However, I may try setting the Organ Guns forward slightly. Acting as both a deterant and getting slightly further range to utilize, which again, can be used to avoid unwanted conflicts.

And of course the Cannons will be covered by infantry. GW Warriors, Hammerers and Quarrellers and such. Pressed closely to the Cannons but not too close.

With Dwarven gunlines, you want minimal core guns and mass cannons and grudge throwers. Any thunder gun or quareler lines do not need much other upgrades than banners and should only be in units of 10.

Why? Because A blood and glory game type. And it's not worth wasting shots in extra ranks when you can buy those extra ranks and get more volleys in different places off. Don't get in the mindset "I need extra ranks and great weapons for close combat when that happens" Regardless of what you have, when the opponents army brings the hammer, you're dead as gak that's just how it is.

It is more beneficial to have a lot of small ranks to slow the army down and get as many stand and shoot shots off as possible.

Realistically the gun-line style is only effective against elite armies. This is because you will have two volleys with your thunderguns. And three with your quarrelers. And each volley may kill one to two models. Quarrelers One to scratching the paintjob on their armor. You have to rely on grudge throwers organ guns and cannons to make their army run away. The shooting in this game is really innacurate and meh on effectiveness. You must make their armies flee or when they hit you it's almost game over. Greatweapons or not you will get steamrolled with light armor.

-Dense

I just can't agree with that logic, Dense. I mean, sure, multiple small units is good. But a few medium or larger ones doesn't exactly hurt.

Great weapon-Quarrelers actually do really well in a lot of match-ups.
A single medium-sized unit (I find 18 to be a deadly number) won't be able to solo serious threats by itself, but getting to swing with WS4 S5 (more accurate and powerful than their shooting) after two turns of shooting and one Stand and Shoot reaction can go a long way toward that goal.
Take it from me; facing a unit or two of missile troops that actually become scarier in close combat is a hard thing to deal with. Especially when they can counter-charge to each other's rescue, an option that isn't viable with S3.

Grudge Throwers have the highest destructive potential. Cannons are largely dependent on how many ranks the enemy unit has. Organ Guns are more consistent, but they all have a larger chance to do nothing (or explode) in any given phase than units with BS-based shooting.

The last thing to consider is simply the fact that one unit costs 130pts for 3 wounds, with success and failure hinging upon the roll of one or two dice, while the other costs the same for 10 wounds and as many dice. War machines are very high risk/reward. BS-based troops hedge your risks a little.