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I am working on building up a modest allied IG detachment for my Codex Marines. I am planning on running a Vet squad with HQ and a Leman Russ to start with.

The core of my Marine list is 2 Vindicators, 2 mounted Tac squads, and a Rifleman Dread. Other mainstays are a LC/ML Dread, 2 Typhoon Speeders, and my Terminator Librarian with either Sternguard or Tac Terms.
My list excels at creating a mid range shooting zone and either taking or defending ground. Two shortcomings I feel my list has are long ranged shooting (24+) to reach out and touch an opponents back line, and pure weight of fire (you can never have enough dakka).

I want a Russ over artillery because I want something really durable that will fit in with my existing target saturation; something that will keep shooting round after round barring terrible luck on the dice; and something that will help take the heat off of my Vindicators. I am, however, always willing to listen to the advice of more experienced players on what piece of IG armor could best fill that role.

The two loadouts I find most appealing are an Exterminator with HB sponsons, hull HB, and heavy stubber for 16 shots per turn at 36 inches, and the classic Main Battle Tank. One gives me a high volume of shots that could anchor my line and pour death, the other gives me a st8 ap3 ordinance pie plate that I can put pretty much anywhere on the board.

How would you equip a single Leman Russ to fulfill the role I have mentioned?

If I had to choose between the the 2 options suggested I'd tell you to go for the Exterminator, w/hull LC. The sponsons can really be anything you'd like, most otions synergize well with the main weapon. But the HBs make the most sense.

However, might I suggest grabbing an Eradicator. It may be a good fit for you, as it seems you don't have any cover save ignoring dakka. It seems like a best of both worlds so to speak as it is a blast and can use the sponsons unlike the Battle Cannon. Although it does come at a premium of AP4 and only 36" range. Magnetize the sponsons and hull weapons and you'll be ready for any opponent.

All HBs would be nice for weight of fire but there is merit in taking a LC/MM loadout.

The best equipment for a russ is a lascannon and sponson multimeltas. Those three weapons come for only 45 points, which is pretty cheap to begin with, and then it comes on an AV14 chassis, which makes it a great value.

As for the main gun, just don't take something that prevents you from firing the sponsons. I'd either go with the truly versatile punisher, or the nicely specialized vanquisher.

Just avoid the LRBT. A single-shot Ap3 weapon isn't going to be doing much to most things. An exterminator beats it out against a huge majority of target types.

+1 for the Vanquisher with a Hull-mounted Lascannon to keep it "cheap."

Who uses tanks anymore? Defensive line, basilisk battery, hell, if it's Apoc through in an Ordinatus if you have one.
At least that's what I do. Otherwise the above poster is what I'd go with.

I would suggest the Exterminator also for one main reason: anti-air. I know its not a dedicated anti-air, but at least it can hit and maybe strip a hull point. Every other russ (besides maybe the punisher) either can't hit flyers at all (blast) or fire one shot (vanquisher). The Exterminator with either sponson/hull load out can be deadly to a flyer,... something your Vindicators are not.

I'm rather fond of an Executioner with HB sponsons and hull weapon as an anti-infantry device. Puts out a lot of shots, does bad damage to heavy infantry with 3 AP2 blast templates and has AV11 on the back to help defend against opportunistic MEQ line infantry in assaults. Also all the weapons are the same range band, and greater than 24" which can still be a bit of a danger zone if you mess your positioning up, or don't kill quite as many guys as you might need to. The lack of gets hot on the main weapon is also handy to get some safe plasma in the army.

Also its a plasma tank firing plasma

You have all given me a lot to consider, thank you.

Explain the reasoning on MM sponsons on something that isn't a Vanquisher. It seems that a Punisher or Exterminator would benefit more from the HB's to add weight of fire. Being a Marine player also makes me leary of the BS3 for weapons with few shots. Which brings me to the Hull LC, makes sense on the Vanquisher as it is an anti armor tank and should have anti armor weapons; but I don't follow on how a weight of fire shooter like a Punisher/Exterminator would benefit more from having it than another HB.

My thoughts by variant:

Vanquisher - a bit too specialized in the anti armor role, giving it a hull LC and MM sponsons does make it sound pretty nasty as an AT platform, but that's 200pts and BS3. For 165 I can have a triple LC Predator with bs4, though 1 lower AV.

Eradicator - not a bad compromise, tossing a large blast still and being able to shoot sponsons, but still I'm not that worried about cover saves. Also, if I'm tossing a blast I want it to be at least str8, as using Vindicators has taught me that plates can scatter so I'd like it to pay off hugely when it hits.

LRBT - still tempting, I see it like an AV14 piece of artillery that gives me a huge range to pound the enemy from turn 1. It suffers potentially from the scatter dice, but str8 can do pretty well on anything up to AV12/13 with the two dice ordinance rule. Seems to me that I could throw MM sponsons and a hull LC and use it for dedicated anti heavy armor if the situation demanded it.

Exterminator - the current leader in my head. Giving it HB's all around and a stubber lets it shoot 16 shots at 36". Against T4 that should give me 6-8 wounds pretty reliably. The low AP means I'll have to rely a bit heavier on the dice to give my opponent bad armor saves, but the potential is there for a lot of unsaved wounds. Against anything T3 or with a crappy save, the thing will absolutely shred. MM's and LC would give it legitimate anti armor abilities, but would dilute its weight of fire. Also I have Vindicators that can really hurt armor at 24" or less, so anti armor at that range is a role it would compete for.

Punisher - 180pts for 16 shots w/ the above Exterminator. 210pts for 32 str 5 shots w/ a dakka Punisher. Might have to rethink the Punisher as a better option. That said, the Exterminator has a better main gun for effective light armor/high T targets, which I think is pretty valuable to not make the tank a pure anti infantry killer.

Feel free to tear my reasoning apart and school me in the ways of IG armor.

I liked Flinty's idea of an executioner with heavy bolter back up. Cheaper and no get hot rolls compared to more plasma.

Either a Vanquisher with LC and MM sponsons as Ailaros stated or executioner.

The reason why you go with the hull lascannon and sponson multimeltas is because it's a great value anti-hard-targets weapon package. In the case of a vanquisher, it makes it nearly 3x better at what it already does. In the case of an exterminator or punisher, it gives the tank real versatility. A lascannon+multimelta punisher, for example, can target anything in the game with a reasonable chance of doing serious damage.

As for the vanquisher, its not just an AT platform. It has 4 guns which put down 2 hits per turn that ignore every armor save in the game, and wound every non-vehicle unit on a 2+. It may not be the flashiest thing, but over a few turns that kind of raw killing power can grind pretty much anything down to nothing (well, that isnt a horde). I've been playing with 4 tanks in this setup, and they've ground through terminators and dreadknights and other non-vehicular stuff before.

As for the LRBT, it's not artillery on a russ chassis. It doesn't have barrage, which means no hitting on side armor, no shooting over terrain (so, fewer cover saves), and no barrage sniping. It's not even as good of a strength as the basilisk either, which is a fair bit better at taking down vehicles than a russ.

My interest is piqued for the MM/LC Vanquisher as I don't have great long range anti armor. The dakka Exterminator still sounds pretty good to me for anything AV12 or lower and for weight of dice for anti terminator duty.

How does the MM/LC Vanquisher match up to a tri-las predator in the ranged anti armor roll?

If you have access to a DA or CSM priced las predator, that would be my vote.

i play C:SM so my Predator Annihilator would be 165pts

UltraTacSgt wrote:
i play C:SM so my Predator Annihilator would be 165pts

I'd rather have an exterminator then, with hull lascannon. Same price but more durability.

UltraTacSgt wrote: How does the MM/LC Vanquisher match up to a tri-las predator in the ranged anti armor roll?

The tri-las predator is better.

Assuming you're in range, a vanquisher hits, on average, with a multimelta, and either a lascannon or a vanquisher cannon. I'd rather take 3 lascannon hits, on average, than the other result.

The two things that the vanquishers have going for it are firstly that it has multimeltas which means at 18" or closer, you pack a bigger punch (and it's Ap1, even at longer ranges), and that it's in the guard codex, so you can get it without allying (if you're a guard player). If you're a space marine player, I don't know if it would be worth it to ally to guard just to get a russ in there.

 Ailaros wrote:
I'd rather take 3 lascannon hits, on average, than the other result.

I would also like to live in a magical world where my BS 4 weapons hit 100% of the time.


(The correct math is the tri-las Predator averages 2.2 hits. So given the choice between averaging one MM and one LC or Vanquisher hit vs. 2.2 LC hits I think the choice is pretty obviously the opposite of what you think it is.)

With a tri-las predator, the twin linked main LC should hit basically every time it shoots; I know that it isn't guaranteed, but a twin linked bs4 shot has pretty strong odds to hit. With the other two LC's you are probably right to expect only one to hit every time. That said, the odds are pretty good that you'll hit with both.
So math-wise it is between 2-3 hits, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect three hits a lot of the time.

That said, I do own a Leman Russ, and I don't currently own a Predator and I'd like to save the heavy slot for a Stormraven or TFC. With my Vindicators, I'll be pushing up into 24" anyway so maybe I should take a harder look at a MM/LC Vanquisher to push up with them.

The choice for me now seems to be between a Dakka Russ, and a Anti-Hard Target Russ.

I know I don't necessarily NEED to ally in IG, but I love the Guard and Cadians just look so awesome. I'd like to get my foot in the door with some allys and eventually collect my way to an independent IG army.

Looks like I'm going to have to just invest in some magnets and try out both configurations a few times, as good arguments can be made for both variants.

UltraTacSgt wrote: The choice for me now seems to be between a Dakka Russ, and a Anti-Hard Target Russ.

Take a punisher with hull lascannon and sponson multimeltas. It will handle both. Well.

 Ailaros wrote:

UltraTacSgt wrote: The choice for me now seems to be between a Dakka Russ, and a Anti-Hard Target Russ.

Take a punisher with hull lascannon and sponson multimeltas. It will handle both. Well.

~200 points for a Two Multimeltas and a Lascannon against hard targets? meh. Could be cheaper.

~200 points for ~10 Str5 AP- hits against soft targets? Not worth it.

If you're going to put all your upgrades into antitank, just run a tank that actually is anti-tank.

If you're running a punisher, might as well run a proper punisher. (HB's everywhere).

Otherwise, you'll be wasting points every turn firing at something your weapons aren't terribly useful against.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

UltraTacSgt wrote: The choice for me now seems to be between a Dakka Russ, and a Anti-Hard Target Russ.

Take a punisher with hull lascannon and sponson multimeltas. It will handle both. Well.

~200 points for a Two Multimeltas and a Lascannon against hard targets? meh. Could be cheaper.

~200 points for ~10 Str5 AP- hits against soft targets? Not worth it.

If you're going to put all your upgrades into antitank, just run a tank that actually is anti-tank.

If you're running a punisher, might as well run a proper punisher. (HB's everywhere).

Otherwise, you'll be wasting points every turn firing at something your weapons aren't terribly useful against.

I agree with TheCapt. That's one on the beautiful thinks about the IG. Our crap is cheap enough to specialize, not try to 1 tank to do everything.
Again, no matter how many points you throw at the IG, they'll never be Space Marines. And they don't need to be.

Well, look at a squad of terminators. Two rounds of shooting kills 4 or 5 with a combination of volume of fire and high-S, good Ap weapons. 200 points of tank takes down 200 points of terminators with several turns to spare to shoot at other stuff. Sounds good to me.

Likewise, a dreadknight goes down in two turns, or one if you've got a generous dollop of help from the entire rest of your army. Meanwhile, against heavier vehicles you've got a lascannon and a pair of multimeltas. Pretty much the only hard target that it's not great against is TMCs.

Meanwhile, against light targets, the punisher in this loadout will absolutely obliterate AV10, and isn't even that bad against AV11, thanks to the lascannon and multimeltas. Meanwhile, I'd like to see a russ that's better against hordes than a punisher.

It can handle both soft and targets just fine. You get a much wider range of targets that you can effectively handle than if you do something as silly as save 10 points by dropping the multimeltas down to heavy bolters, or whatever.

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, look at a squad of terminators. Two rounds of shooting kills 4 or 5 with a combination of volume of fire and high-S, good Ap weapons. 200 points of tank takes down 200 points of terminators with several turns to spare to shoot at other stuff. Sounds good to me.

Likewise, a dreadknight goes down in two turns, or one if you've got a generous dollop of help from the entire rest of your army. Meanwhile, against heavier vehicles you've got a lascannon and a pair of multimeltas. Pretty much the only hard target that it's not great against is TMCs.

Meanwhile, against light targets, the punisher in this loadout will absolutely obliterate AV10, and isn't even that bad against AV11, thanks to the lascannon and multimeltas. Meanwhile, I'd like to see a russ that's better against hordes than a punisher.

It can handle both soft and targets just fine. You get a much wider range of targets that you can effectively handle than if you do something as silly as save 10 points by dropping the multimeltas down to heavy bolters, or whatever.

I mean, no one is saying it can't accomplish all the jobs. That's a self-evident truth through taking diverse weapons.

The assertion is that specialization is better. The IG Heavy Slot is diverse because it is there to fill the weaknesses of your list. Especially a list like yours, full of lascannons and Meltaguns, why not dip further into the Anti-horde by trading the random punisher's anti-tank stuff for more anti-horde?

In the same manner, if all my guardsmen had Heavy Bolters and Plasmaguns, I'd probably lean more towards a Leman Russ Annihilator/Exterminator with some MM sponsons.

This isn't that old "Best TAC Russ" thread. It's discussing how to best put one Russ into a list.

I contend that you want to specialize it towards your list's biggest weaknesses, rather than vary it against all targets.

UltraTacSgt wrote:
With a tri-las predator, the twin linked main LC should hit basically every time it shoots; I know that it isn't guaranteed, but a twin linked bs4 shot has pretty strong odds to hit. With the other two LC's you are probably right to expect only one to hit every time. That said, the odds are pretty good that you'll hit with both.
So math-wise it is between 2-3 hits, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect three hits a lot of the time.

That said, I do own a Leman Russ, and I don't currently own a Predator and I'd like to save the heavy slot for a Stormraven or TFC. With my Vindicators, I'll be pushing up into 24" anyway so maybe I should take a harder look at a MM/LC Vanquisher to push up with them.
.

Let's do some quick math

Full Lascannon Predator
1 TL las = 0.89 hits
2 Las = 1.34 hits
Total = 2.23 hits @ S9 AP2 @ 48"

Vanquisher, Lascannon, Multi-Melta
1 Cannon = 0.5 hits
1 Las = 0.5 hits
2 Melta = 1 hit
Total = 2 hits @ S8-9, AP2-1 @ 24" (armorbane 50% of the time)
Total = 1 hit @ S8-0, AP2 @ 48" (armorbane 50% of the time)

Disregarding cost, durability, allies etc and only focusing on firepower, we see that the Predator will average twice as many hits at a longer range and higher S than the Leman Russ. At 24" the Leman Russ is roughly equal in firepower (when factoring in AP1 and armorbane vs consistently higher S).

For comparison, the Exterminator with just the hull Lascannon looks like this:
4 Cannon = 3 hits
1 Las = 0.5 hits
Average = 3 S7 AP4 hits and 0.5 S9 AP2 hits @ 48"

If my target was AV10-12 or a flyer, I'd rather take the Exterminator than either choice.

 TheCaptain wrote:
The assertion is that specialization is better.

To be fair, Ailaros refuses to play with Vendettas and FW units. So he doesn't have the best AA/anti-tank option (melta vets in Vendetta), the best static transport killer (Sabre guns), or the best volume of fire (punisher cannon Vulture). When you're dealing with those self-imposed limits Leman Russes are your only big guns, and you have to compensate for your lack of Vendettas by throwing anti-tank weapons on your anti-horde tanks if you want to have any chance of getting enough anti-tank weapons on the table.

Fortunately the rest of us don't have to deal with those limits, and can use our Vendettas to deal with tanks while our anti-horde units focus on being the best possible anti-horde units.

I second the vote for the vendetta. AT and AA all in one package.

If you must choose a leman russ for your list, I 'd probably go for the vanquisher wlas and MM. You need more AT and that sucker will do that job well.

ender502

I agree partially with Ender the angry Walmart smiley.

If you want AT and/or AA, then the vendetta is the way to go. It is cheaper. It is faster. It has more guns for it's buck It is more versatile. And most Importantly, it is a flying transport.

That all is nice and dandy when you are on the field of battle, and with the new rules it is just plain cruel.

Sadly I have to disagree with most and say that if you pick a Leman Russ, then give up the idea of it being an effective AT. BS 3 is not a good Balistic skill for precision. If you want to field a Leman Russ, do not mount any sponsons on it unless you necessary.

If you fight high ammounts of infantry or monsters in dencely packed landscapes then a Leman Russ Eradicator with three flamers and dozer blades would be best. If you fight strong armies with transports/heavy infantry based armies then a Leman Russ Executioner with side sponson plasma cannons and camo would do best. (Why camo you may ask? Because the camo netting will save stationary vehicles life. Yes it might seem expensive, but it will save your tanks from 1-3 ranged attacks before they pop in any game. ) If you fight ranged armies that just like to troll you with their distance fire power then that is when you bring in the normal battle tank with no upgrades unless you wish to add camo cloaks or a las cannon on it tank. Range 72 is very nice, and the armor on a leman russ is only surpassed by a land raider. Shelling 3 battle cannon salvos every turn for 450 points guaranteed to remain until the end of the game, is something that not many other armies can boast about.

My main opponents are both Marine players (DA/C:SM/BA), but other players at my FLGS run everything from Orks, to GK, to Nids, to Tau, so I can get a good mix of opponents.

I have a pretty decent ability to wreck armor in my list with two Vindicators, two Dreads (Rifleman and either LC/ML or Ironclad), CF Tac Terms, Typhoons, Stormraven, etc. So if I were to build the Russ for anti armor it would need to be in the 24" and longer slot to really be worth it.

I feel I could do a little better with having weight of dice fire for light armor and lesser unit targeting. I have a few pie plates and the typhoons throwing 4 small blasts +6 HB's, and now the Stormraven can put a big number of shots on an enemy, but good solid dakka from an AV14 platform would definitely help my firepower and add armor saturation.

Another category that I could use improvement on is long range (30"+) shooting. I originally was going to buy a Manticore, but the chance for pie plates to miss is something I've learned a lot about from my Vindi's and my opponent who regularly fields two DA Whirlwinds. The drawbacks of the LRBT (graciously explained by those who replied to this thread) seem to make taking one a little less sound of a decision than opting for the Manticore, though the AV14 of the LRBT is a large improvement to the AV12 of the Manticore.

I have the mid-range well covered by my current list. What I need is a way to affect long range enemies like Broadsides or Artillery, while also having the ability to put a good weight of dice onto other targets to force saves, this unit would also contribute to my armor saturation in an ideal scenariio. This is what brings me to the use of a Russ; armor saturation provided by the single Leman Russ would be a benefit to my whole force plan, and at longer ranges, a large volume of mid strength shots should be sufficient to force wounds onto things like Broadsides, AV12 artillery, etc.

Executioner might be worth a look OP.

A single one with plasma sponsons is far more likely to make a meaningful impact in a game than most other russ types, which are made to be cheap and spammed. A single electric bugaloo Executioner can put out a scary amount of fire up to 36", anchor a line, and push the field. It's also got weight of fire to a degree since it fires 5 shots per volley, so you can even hunt MC's and light vehicles to a degree of success (Although I much prefer to hunt infantry with it)

However, it's points cost reflects its power, and most opponents who see one and know what it does will make a beeline for it to kill it as quickly as possible. Just figured it might be something worth looking into.

 Peregrine wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
The assertion is that specialization is better.

To be fair, Ailaros refuses to play with Vendettas and FW units. So he doesn't have the best AA/anti-tank option (melta vets in Vendetta), the best static transport killer (Sabre guns), or the best volume of fire (punisher cannon Vulture). When you're dealing with those self-imposed limits Leman Russes are your only big guns, and you have to compensate for your lack of Vendettas by throwing anti-tank weapons on your anti-horde tanks if you want to have any chance of getting enough anti-tank weapons on the table.

Fortunately the rest of us don't have to deal with those limits, and can use our Vendettas to deal with tanks while our anti-horde units focus on being the best possible anti-horde units.

Some of us also play in a setting where FW units are not allowed or have ludicrous restrictions put on them. And some of us do not have the capability of safely transporting a single Vendetta, not to mention the 2-3 that are almost required. And some of us can not afford to purchase from FW.

Yes, there are better things at the Guards disposal but sometimes those things are simply not available. For example, I play at the Seattle Bunker. If I want to bring ANY FW unit I must have the actual model. No conversions, it needs to be the real thing. With that in mind, Sabres are ridiculous high in price and not really an option. Vultures take up a lot of space in a case, which again is a limitation many people have. Same for Vendettas.

Some times tactics are impossible to do in a vacuum because some resources are simply not available. We have to work with what we have. If that is Leman Russ Chassis, then people who do have restrictions on what they can and can't bring are going to do their best to get the most of what they can out of those tanks.