Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yeah, not everybody plays with the forgeowrld expansion packs. Assuming that everybody does is silly.

And I'm still not sold on the executioner, especially in its plasma boat version. A 1 in 3 chance to glance yourself every turn it fires, and on a platform that can be more or less neutralized by displacement, isn't ever good against hordes or heavy vehicles, and can't even shoot at fliers.

For a huge price tag. It doesn't sound very appealing to me.

My Personal Preferance in my IG army is i run my Vanquishers as follows

Vanquisher , Plasma Sponsons , Lascannon -- 210

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, not everybody plays with the forgeowrld expansion packs. Assuming that everybody does is silly.

Clever little snipe in the beginning.

Also, this link in your signature is broken, and currently mixed in so that it links to your batrep "Assuming everyone plays with forge world expansions is silly. Deriding them for not is asinine. "

Assuming that everyone has the option is quite reasonable. Because everyone does.

"But Mr. Captain, my gaming group doesn't use FW units!"

1. Introduce FW rules and units to them and use them sparingly as your group learns to embrace them.
2. Find a gaming group that will allow you to use them.

If neither of these options are even remotely possible for you, then I ask you only one thing. "What is the North Pole/Antarctica like?"

You forgot option 3. Just don't use them.
It's really not that big of a deal where you get your toy soldiers from. I'd rather play with people I like, who for whatever reason disallow forge world, than find a whole new group who like (even more) expensive models.

 Griddlelol wrote:
You forgot option 3. Just don't use them.
It's really not that big of a deal where you get your toy soldiers from. I'd rather play with people I like, who for whatever reason disallow forge world, than find a whole new group who like (even more) expensive models.

Well yes, but my post was referring to the fact that everyone has the Option to use FW models. Whether they choose to pursue said options or not is up to them, and ultimately matters not.

TheCaptain wrote:Well yes, but my post was referring to the fact that everyone has the Option to use FW models. Whether they choose to pursue said options or not is up to them, and ultimately matters not.

Except it does.

Everybody has the option to buy a tennis racket and play a game of tennis. If you're going to be a part of a raquetball club, though, then you're going to play raquetball. The fact that you have the liberty to buy tennis stuff isn't all that terribly relevant - even if the tennis raquet company says that its products can be used in other sports.

I mean, what's really being gained here? You show up wanting to play a certain game, and other people want to play another game. Throwing a hissy fit and pouting that the other players should play your game instead of theirs accomplishes nothing. Well, other than make you look like a toddler throwing a temper tantrum.

To bring it back to the original analogy. People giving advice about forgeworld units is akin to people giving the best advice about tennis equipment - it's not helpful for those people who are playing raquetball, rather than tennis. Deriding people for not accepting the supremacy of tennis is silly.

For everyone bitching about FW, could I just point out that the only Vendetta kit made is FW. And everybody seems to be okay with them?

 alarmingrick wrote:
For everyone bitching about FW, could I just point out that the only Vendetta kit made is FW. And everybody seems to be okay with them?

I need to buy a kit to make the Vendetta?
I think you missed the point.

alarmingrick wrote:For everyone bitching about FW, could I just point out that the only Vendetta kit made is FW. And everybody seems to be okay with them?

I was aware FW makes the only Vendetta kit, but I assume everyone has just made their own.

TheCaptain wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, not everybody plays with the forgeowrld expansion packs. Assuming that everybody does is silly.

Clever little snipe in the beginning.

Also, this link in your signature is broken, and currently mixed in so that it links to your batrep "Assuming everyone plays with forge world expansions is silly. Deriding them for not is asinine. "

Assuming that everyone has the option is quite reasonable. Because everyone does.

"But Mr. Captain, my gaming group doesn't use FW units!"

1. Introduce FW rules and units to them and use them sparingly as your group learns to embrace them.
2. Find a gaming group that will allow you to use them.

If neither of these options are even remotely possible for you, then I ask you only one thing. "What is the North Pole/Antarctica like?"

Again, FW is allowed where I play, but with restrictions in place. And there really isn't any other game in town for 40k in Seattle besides the GW bunker. That is, of course, unless you want to play Warmahordes.

TheCaptain wrote:If neither of these options are even remotely possible for you, then I ask you only one thing. "What is the North Pole/Antarctica like?"

It's not a matter of ability, it's a matter of preference.

If I was part of a raquetball club, could I convince everybody to play tennis instead? Perhaps. If there are people at the local club who really want to play raquetball, though, it doesn't mean that I should show up every weekend with my tennis raquet and demand that people play tennis with me.

I furthermore don't see anything noble about attempting to force people to do what I want either.

 Ailaros wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:Well yes, but my post was referring to the fact that everyone has the Option to use FW models. Whether they choose to pursue said options or not is up to them, and ultimately matters not.

Except it does.

Everybody has the option to buy a tennis racket and play a game of tennis. If you're going to be a part of a raquetball club, though, then you're going to play raquetball. The fact that you have the liberty to buy tennis stuff isn't all that terribly relevant - even if the tennis raquet company says that its products can be used in other sports.

I mean, what's really being gained here? You show up wanting to play a certain game, and other people want to play another game. Throwing a hissy fit and pouting that the other players should play your game instead of theirs accomplishes nothing. Well, other than make you look like a toddler throwing a temper tantrum.

To bring it back to the original analogy. People giving advice about forgeworld units is akin to people giving the best advice about tennis equipment - it's not helpful for those people who are playing raquetball, rather than tennis. Deriding people for not accepting the supremacy of tennis is silly.

Comparing it to Raquetball vs. Tennis is a bit of a Strawman, don't you think? And I hate using that term. But it applies.

It's more akin to a Golfer wanting to play with a Belly-putter (Those new really long putters that some golfers prefer, but some think shouldn't be a part of the game), but his usual foursome doesn't like bellyputters. He can convince them that bellyputters are fine, he can find a new foursome that is fine with bellyputters, or he can change up his game with a regular putter. Same game, different way of playing it. How you play it is up to you.

Throwing a hissy fit and pouting that the other players should play your game instead of theirs accomplishes nothing.

No one really realizes it, but FW debates usually start because a player that uses FW puts it up as an option in an advice-thread, and someone with anti-FW sentiment says "CANT USE THAT! NOT IN MY 40k!"

You're the one berating FW players, Ailaros. We're just offering it up as an option.

We (Dakka's more vocal FW players) continually contend that players are free to not use FW at their discretion. We could care less. It doesn't matter. We do it, you don't have to.

But you regularly tell us that we (again, FW players) are playing 40k wrong. After a while, it starts to become rude.

-TheCaptain


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alarmingrick wrote:
For everyone bitching about FW, could I just point out that the only Vendetta kit made is FW. And everybody seems to be okay with them?

No one is complaining about FW kits, or saying FW kits shouldn't be used in 40k. It's FW rules/units, that catch flak.

 Happygrunt wrote:
Some times tactics are impossible to do in a vacuum because some resources are simply not available. We have to work with what we have. If that is Leman Russ Chassis, then people who do have restrictions on what they can and can't bring are going to do their best to get the most of what they can out of those tanks.

I'm not saying that there can never be reasons that specific units are unavailable, I'm just pointing out that Ailaros over-values certain units because he's playing under self-imposed limits on what he will take. His high opinion of the MM/LC Punisher isn't because it's the best unit, it's because he refuses to use certain units and LC/MM Leman Russes are the only way to get enough anti-tank without them. For people who don't share his limits the LC/MM Punisher is less appealing because of its lack of focus. We don't need our anti-horde specialists to carry anti-tank weapons because we already have Vendettas with melta vets for that, and we can instead take HB sponsons to make the Punisher even more effective in its primary role.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, not everybody plays with the forgeowrld expansion packs. Assuming that everybody does is silly.

Not everyone plays with the Necron expansion pack. Assuming that everybody does and will allow you to use your flyerspam army is silly.

Ok ignoring forgeworld, you already proposed the best option in my opinion.

Exterminator with hull HB and heavy stubber. Since you said you wan to add volume of fire, that would be a good way of doing it.
And it has decent strength.

Personally, i would add commander Pask. Being a Space marines player its annoying to play with BS. Also Pasks helps to penetrate. Another annoyong thing is getting that lucky 6 on Autocannon and then failing to penetrate. And then even Heavy Bolters are (marginal) threat to flyers.
Yes, it does bring the cost up, but i would be willing to pay it.

lacert wrote:
Ok ignoring forgeworld, you already proposed the best option in my opinion.

Exterminator with hull HB and heavy stubber. Since you said you wan to add volume of fire, that would be a good way of doing it.
And it has decent strength.

Personally, i would add commander Pask. Being a Space marines player its annoying to play with BS. Also Pasks helps to penetrate. Another annoyong thing is getting that lucky 6 on Autocannon and then failing to penetrate. And then even Heavy Bolters are (marginal) threat to flyers.
Yes, it does bring the cost up, but i would be willing to pay it.

210 points?

230 if you add HB sponsons?

That's alotta points for not alotta killing.

 TheCaptain wrote:

lacert wrote:
Ok ignoring forgeworld, you already proposed the best option in my opinion.

Exterminator with hull HB and heavy stubber. Since you said you wan to add volume of fire, that would be a good way of doing it.
And it has decent strength.

Personally, i would add commander Pask. Being a Space marines player its annoying to play with BS. Also Pasks helps to penetrate. Another annoyong thing is getting that lucky 6 on Autocannon and then failing to penetrate. And then even Heavy Bolters are (marginal) threat to flyers.
Yes, it does bring the cost up, but i would be willing to pay it.

210 points?

230 if you add HB sponsons?

That's alotta points for not alotta killing.

yes, almost the same as land raider

The problem is, it doesn't kill anything that marines could not do themselves for the similar price. But if i would go for leman russ, that would be my choice.

I am looking at 180pts for the Exterminator w/ HB sponsons, Hull HB, and Heavy Stubber. I would replace my two Typhoon Speeders as I think the 4 str7 ap4 twin linked shots and the 12 other shots on the AV14 frame would probably do more than the 4 missiles and 6 HB shots from the Speeders.

I do love my speeders, but they are so fragile that anytime someone dedicates any firepower to them, they drop. That AV14 Russ is not shifting without a major commitment.

If you are sitting around your own deployment with speeders, you are doing it wrong.

Speeders exists for one of two things:
1) Moving very quickly across the board to melta some vehicles
2) Moving very quickly across the board to heavy flamer some objective holders.

They were never meant to be your long range dakka, and their AV10 is protected by the cover save they get when they turbo boost on turn one.

I have to respectfully disagree Cheesedoodler.

I will concede that Speeders excel in the rolls you outlined, and perhaps their relatively weak AV10 is better suited for suicidal strikes, but I've found the Typhoon pattern with missiles and a HB to be pretty effective.

My list is really conducive to their use though. I have plenty of target saturation and there are always greater threats than the speeders to attract the attention of my opponent; namely Vindicators, Dreads, Terminators, a Stormraven, and mounted Tactical squads.

Most games my Typhoon Speeders live to the end, their long range weapons and jink keeping them out of harms way and elusive. That said, as I previously mentioned, dedicated effort to destroy them is usually successful.

However, dedicated effort usually destroys any target when the right weapon is used.

The short answer is dont, sponsons and heavystub/stormbolt are over-rated for their price.. Often only snap-shot!!
Lascanon is only worth the cost if ur tank hunting! Which is feasible if not doable!!
Pask only really comes into his own if he stays still.. Which is when?
(Mind you a fully kitted up punisher with all bells and whistles with pask was HILARIOUS!! Not worth the poit but fun for a casual game)
For me it's stock standard.. Either LRBT for cheap cost, Demolisher for tank hunting or Executioner for monstrous creature hunting (risky to say the least)
If your infantry hunting with LR's then maybe punisher but agai. Better ways to do it.

Edited by Janthkin; be polite, or don't post.