Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support!

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**felixcat**

I did not say a DK could handle a BT. I said a two pronged incinerator attack (Str6 instagibs demons), psycannons and stormbolters will hurt. GK may be beatable - unlikely - depending on the list you face and what allies they take and if you tailor for them.. Rune Priests and Farseers are worse for sure. I did not mention the banner of blood - I agree that is one item I would take. I've only had one game against demons so far - SW/SM and had no real problems. I've seen two others. Looking at the lists that won Indy I see trouble for demons. Sure an ADL/Bastion certainly could help. But overall the codex has a whole lot of holes. You cannot convince me these guys can handle sustained fire. I will be happy tp be proved wrong but I see any decent allied build with multiple flyers are buffered template weapons - see IG - causing problems. At least Nids have psychic defense. They can play MCs that spawn buffers and their FMCs have biomancy. And they lose more often than win. Rending does not help genestealers. CC builds have a tough battle in 6ed. I keep reading reports of battles where new demons seem unstoppable. Ihaven't experienced that. Maybe I'm wrong.

-----
edited spelling

**Puscifer**

As it stands, GKs maul GD.

The 6 toughness means nothing against their attacks. The GUO is the only one that can stand up to GK and that's only because of it's potential to get toughness 10.

Thirsters and Skarbrand can seriously smash GK in the face, but as long as one or two survive the Daemons are doomed.

**labmouse42**

felixcat wrote:
Do I sound whiney? I'm not really that person. But I see the codex and cannot wonder what GW was thinking. Make Xenos unplayable?

That's funny. I was just listening to the 11th company podcast and every one on the podcast was saying that Xenos are the only armies to play right now. They also all said the daemon codex was very good.

Isn't it funny how the grass is always greener under the other armies boots?

**Redbeard**

McNinja wrote:
Bloodthirster v. Dreadknight. Tell me how long the DK lasts in CC against 6 S7 AP2 attacks at I9. That one 12" S6 AP2 attack that's basically twin-linked thanks to BS10 is only helping.

Explain to me why the Grey Knight player is going to let that fight happen. You don't fight Bloodthirsters, you shoot Bloodthirsters, and 5 wounds aren't that hard to strip off something, especially with hordes of S5 stormbolters and psycannons. My Bloodthirster didn't survive turn one in the game I ran him.

labmouse42 wrote:

That's funny. I was just listening to the 11th company podcast and every one on the podcast was saying that Xenos are the only armies to play right now. They also all said the daemon codex was very good.

And what have they done that I should respect their opinion? Bought a microphone?

**felixcat**

Isn't it funny how the grass is always greener under the other armies boots?

This has nothing to do with being jealous of another player's army. I can pick up the army I want.
Xenos = Necrons - then the statement makes sense as Necs are figuring in many a winning tournament list as a primary force. Other than that they are allied detachments which are not bad per say but imperial forces are better on the whole and shown more love by GW. This is a side issue though. I'm simply expressing my thoughts on how I have perceived the weaknesses of the new codex.

So ...
1) Poor saves and no eternal warrior
2) Poor anti-flyer
3) Poor psychic defense
4) Too much randomness - we aren't Orks - and some of the rules put me to sleep. I can take an half an hour rolling on the tables if I use MSU.

Obviously you need to protect your stronger cc troops be it Crushers (hit bad by the nerf bat but still relatively okay with Juggy Herald and Banner of Blood), Seekers with Herald and gifts and psychic powers, Flesh Hounds, et all. So we take a Grimoire and limit our options? How else do I protect my troops which are essential in 6ed? There may well be a decent demon list out there. But overall, I see more minus than plus in the codex. I will say they might make a quite decent allied detachment. Herald, demonettes, seekers, grinder. This could add some cc punch to a list that has none and a decent heavy.

**Brymm**

Xenos not good? Your argument is invalid!
Tyranids are strong. Necrons are amazing. DE have a place. Tau/eldrad is a build that can work. DE beast packs, harlistars, eldar councils... Xenos unplayable? After that crapper of a Dark Angels codex, I'd be worried about loyalists.

**felixcat**

You need to read more closely. I said excluding Necrons and only as allied forces do Xenos really shine.

Please lets not discuss Nids. They have their moments but they have too many almost auto-losses.

I know - you saw beastpacks win right. In Sean's hands. He is an excellent and intelligent player. It is viable but I had problems mastering it. I'll grant that. The rest - one trick ponies easily countered.

The proof is in the pudding. Imperial forces or Necrons with allies are winning in 6ed at the majority of events. .

The DA codex was a bit disappointing although Ravenwing lists are not terrible. Not stellar for a new 6ed codex though.

**Barrywise**

Guys you are obviously missing the point of the codex, you're supposed to spam Exalted Seeker Chariots as much as you can, as in the full 17 that you can possibly take. The fact that you're even able to do that makes me sad.

Great review btw

**Sgt. Salt**

People have been freaking out over the randomness in the new book and treating it like it's going to lose you every game.

I've played a few games with it and with proper order of operations you can make it work to your advantage more than against you.

What other army has the ability to tweek it's list before every game to suit its needs? I've been playing a flying circus with fateweaver and between all of the gifts and powers I usually end up with some shooting ability or a defense boost and what I don't get from gifts I make up for in psychic powers. It costs more but troops cost less.

And as for Pink Horrors (admittedly the only troops I run) as long as one is alive they still have the same damage output as at 10 strong which should not be overlooked. Buy them in 11 so you roll twice and you're bound to get a decent anti tank weapon. Bolt is cool because even at str 6 (Herald) if you hit several tanks you'll get one of them.

The warpflame rule is a pain but it's taught me to wipe out one unit at a time very quickly. The fact that only one horror has to be in range helps with this and keeping them safe.

**Valek**

mercer wrote:
I am steadily working my work through the review of the Chaos Daemons codex. I thought I would share this with the good folk of Dakka.

Lord of Change

The Lord of Change is pretty much same profile as the Bloodthirster (which is funny as you'd thought the 'Thirster would be stronger), though doesn't has as good WS, BS, I and A. It does cost 20 points less though.

You can also have daemonic rewards, which the greater rewards are probably best considering the LoC only has a 5+ inv, though can re-roll 1's when saving as it is a daemon of tzeentch. In addition the daemon if tzeentch rules gives +3 when using psychic powers, though the giant daemon bird is LD9 anyway.

The LoC (Lord of Change) is a flying monstrous creature and is a mastery level 2 psyker, you can pay 25 points and make it a mastery level 3. LoC can use divination and change disciplines. The change discipline is unique for Tzeentch Daemons and as you can guess is all shooting based. The bad news about these shooting powers is all have this silly warpflame rule; if the enemy unit suffers an unsaved wound, then the unit must take a toughness test, if it passes it gains feel no pain (this stacks)!If failed the unit suffers D3 wounds no armour or cover saves.

Here's the powers:

Flickering Fire of Tzeentch - 24" S5 AP4 assault 2D6, soul blaze - you can use 1,2 or 3 warp charge points to use this power, for each warp charge point you use you add an extra D6 - so 3 warp charge points would fire 4D6 shots! Add in prescience and that re-roll armour save one from divination and you're laughing.

Tzeentch's Firestorm - 24" SD6+1 AP- assault 1, blast

Bolt of Tzeentch - 24" SD6+4 AP2 assault 1

Infernal Gateweay - 18" SD6+4 AP1 assault 1, blast

Like the Bloodthirster, Lord of Changes makes Princes with the daemon of tzeentch upgrade heavy support choices.

Summary

Personally I do not think the standard Tzeentch powers are that good and find them very unreliable. Taking a big ass Daemon with a 5+ inv save costing 255 points just to fire a crap load of S5 shots is a bit much. Sure there's some good divination powers i.e prescience and some other powers, though you are hoping you get good luck. If you add in greater rewards this Daemon-Chicken gets more survivable, but costs a lot more points - you're talking close to 300 points!

Rating: 5/10

Seriously, in my oppinion he is much better than any other GD, he can twinlink himself or other units, sure shooting is not that good, but with a lesser gift giving him S8 ap2 he is a force to reckon with. Add two defensive rewards extra he will be extremely good, he is however 305 points. And he flies, that means that he will add his powers where needed and can kill units or characters.

**Razerous**

Sgt. Salt wrote:
. Buy them in 11 so you roll twice and you're bound to get a decent anti tank weapon. Bolt is cool because even at str 6 (Herald) if you hit several tanks you'll get one of them.

You only roll once. Generating rolls on the tables is solely linked to ones Psychic Mastery Level.

11 is still great for the extra warp charge & additional shots.

I'm not sure if the herald is worth using with the beam power. THey aren't cheap/free, they buff horrors and will buff horrors best by improving volume of shooting. Single beam attacks, best go for smaller squads (x11).

Edit: A LoC, as a FMC, is astoundingly good. Divination rolls alone allow him to wreck face in CC. The fragility of FMC is offset entirely by T6 6W 5++ and the middle-rewards being very geared towards improving staying power. I agree (any) good shooting power is valuble for a FMC, which the LoC has atleast partially.

**Sephyr**

Sgt. Salt wrote:

What other army has the ability to tweek it's list before every game to suit its needs? I've been playing a flying circus with fateweaver and between all of the gifts and powers I usually end up with some shooting ability or a defense boost and what I don't get from gifts I make up for in psychic powers. It costs more but troops cost less.

And as for Pink Horrors (admittedly the only troops I run) as long as one is alive they still have the same damage output as at 10 strong which should not be overlooked. Buy them in 11 so you roll twice and you're bound to get a decent anti tank weapon. Bolt is cool because even at str 6 (Herald) if you hit several tanks you'll get one of them.

Except now all of those powers are subject to Shadow inthe Warp, Eldar Runes, Rune Priest cancelling then on a 4+, Deny the Witch, Perils. And good luck finding shooting that is not psychic in nature. I doubt you'll run out of fingers of one hand.

Horrors are just...weird, and not in the cool Tzentchian way. Even rolling well their volume of fire is aggressively mediocre and weak, I can sort of picture granting FNP to an enemy that survives a strong attack, like an eldritch melta blast, in a save-or-prosper mindset. "Phew! you avoided a gruesome attack, so now you get a little boon". But after lame S4 bolter-equivalent? It'll be fun watching guard blobs going about with 2+ FNP, and by fun I mean sad.

Having the same volume of fire with 1 or 10 models in the aquad is not that big of an advantage when the number was not great in the first place and the unit is so fragile that it's reasonably easy to wipe it completely with regular fire from 1-2 regular units.

**lordofthegophers**

I stopped reading after you gave the Lord of Change 5/10.

**McNinja**

Sephyr wrote:
Sgt. Salt wrote:

What other army has the ability to tweek it's list before every game to suit its needs? I've been playing a flying circus with fateweaver and between all of the gifts and powers I usually end up with some shooting ability or a defense boost and what I don't get from gifts I make up for in psychic powers. It costs more but troops cost less.

And as for Pink Horrors (admittedly the only troops I run) as long as one is alive they still have the same damage output as at 10 strong which should not be overlooked. Buy them in 11 so you roll twice and you're bound to get a decent anti tank weapon. Bolt is cool because even at str 6 (Herald) if you hit several tanks you'll get one of them.

Except now all of those powers are subject to Shadow inthe Warp, Eldar Runes, Rune Priest cancelling then on a 4+, Deny the Witch, Perils. And good luck finding shooting that is not psychic in nature. I doubt you'll run out of fingers of one hand.

Horrors are just...weird, and not in the cool Tzentchian way. Even rolling well their volume of fire is aggressively mediocre and weak, I can sort of picture granting FNP to an enemy that survives a strong attack, like an eldritch melta blast, in a save-or-prosper mindset. "Phew! you avoided a gruesome attack, so now you get a little boon". But after lame S4 bolter-equivalent? It'll be fun watching guard blobs going about with 2+ FNP, and by fun I mean sad.

Having the same volume of fire with 1 or 10 models in the aquad is not that big of an advantage when the number was not great in the first place and the unit is so fragile that it's reasonably easy to wipe it completely with regular fire from 1-2 regular units.

I was startled by the Pink Horrors shooting abilities, or lack thereof. 3 warp charges isn't bad, but it sure isn't good. Why they are forced to use psychic shooting attacks instead of normal attacks, and only three of them at that.

I'm concerned about the T3, but I'm not entirely put off by it. I hoping that a single blob of 20 BLs with 2 smaller 10 man units that DS in later or even just bring up the rear can survive long enough to assault turn 2.

Also, I feel like that because the developers don't playtest or make rules with tournaments or competitions in mind, they don't think about how long the games actually take or how the Warp Storm/Instability charts actually affect the game, since their job is to play games all day. When you have all day every day to just sit around and play 40k, you lose a bit of perspective that those of us with jobs and girl/boyfriends and school have.

**Puscifer**

Ok...

So after four of my friends and I have tested Daemons for just over a week of solid games, we have found them to be an army that is powerful, but needs a very subtle hand to control them.

Every unit must be used together. Army synergy is needed more in this army than any other due to the fragility of it's rank and vile.

GD are the games best mc. They can turn games around in one fell swoop, but they cost a fortune for this power and they bring little else to the army.

In testing we each took 1850 point Mono forces and an 1850 point mixed force against some tourney staple armies - Imperial Guard Mech, DE Venom Spam, Heldrake spam CSM, GK and Cron Air.

We found the Mono lists to be very underpowered in some areas and overpowered in others. Mono Nurgle was best vs gunline armies, due to cover saves, but useless against cc armies.

The mixed list had the best results against all comers, with only Heldrake spam, Cron Air and Venom Spam giving them trouble.

We came to a decision that they are the most subtle army to control and that out of five of us, only one would try them in a competitive environment.

Has anyone else managed to get results that confirm this or have an opinion?

Please note that we rate the codex highly and that the armies we played were very fun to play.

**labmouse42**

Redbeard wrote:
labmouse42 wrote:

That's funny. I was just listening to the 11th company podcast and every one on the podcast was saying that Xenos are the only armies to play right now. They also all said the daemon codex was very good.

And what have they done that I should respect their opinion? Bought a microphone?

* Attend national tourneys on a regular basis
* Win national tourneys
* Win tourneys with lists that become 'net lists'.
* Built the 40k community

What have you done? Bought a keyboard?

**XT-1984**

felixcat wrote:

The codex is just bad. You were better with the old flamer/screamer lists. Now both got the nerf bat and we were not given anything of note in return.

Hang on, those lists were awful. I have 27 Screamers and 9 Flamers in my old 1500 point White Dwarf Update list. Because it looked good on paper.

In the sheer overpoweredness of that army was more of a curse than a gift though. I couldn't lose with it, and when there's no risk of losing whats the fun in playing.

Overall I really like the codex. So many options in it.

And I think Soulgrinders are awesome. They don't suffer from Daemonic Instability but get their 5++. They're immune to small arms fire. With 5 S10 Attacks when Assaulting. And of course, Armor 13.

To top it off you can give them a Battle Cannon (half range but thats not a problem).

**Tarrasq**

Sephyr wrote:

But after lame S4 bolter-equivalent?

Its S5 AP 4 a heavy bolter equivalent and they can be buffed to S6 with a cheap HQ that brings prescience to the party.

**Redbeard**

labmouse42 wrote:

* Attend national tourneys on a regular basis

so they're giving prizes for showing up now?

* Win national tourneys
* Win tourneys with lists that become 'net lists'.

Which ones?

* Built the 40k community

"The 40k community" - really? That's kind of funny.

What have you done? Bought a keyboard?

I used to have some of that in my sig, but it got too long. I've placed in the top ten of multiple GTs since 2007, and have a shelf full of trophies from both local tourneys and GTs. But really, that's not important, as I'm not the one professing to be an expert. If you throw down someone's opinion as authoritative on a subject, you should be prepared to explain why they're the authority.

**felixcat**

The mixed list had the best results against all comers, with only Heldrake spam, Cron Air and Venom Spam giving them trouble.

We came to a decision that they are the most subtle army to control and that out of five of us, only one would try them in a competitive environment.

Three relatively prevalent builds. I'm not surprised only one of you is taking them to a tournament. They are not 'subtle'. They are random. You cannot plan for random. There are powerful units. I did say that there were a few. The problem is cost for those powerful units as opposed to the results achieved form them and the inherent risks fielding such expensive units. Honestly, i would play demons if they gave warp flame skyfire. A simple fix to alleviate the worst pressure somewhat the worst scenarios we can face as demons.

**calypso2ts**

felixcat wrote:

Three relatively prevalent builds. I'm not surprised only one of you is taking them to a tournament. They are not 'subtle'. They are random. You cannot plan for random.

You can plan for random. Gamers do it all the time. Okay, I have 24 S6 shots into their Dakka Jet - it should die, but if it does not, where do I position the rest of my units? (man it would be so...so...RANDOM if it did not go down) Where do I position the rest of my army so they can have a good target if it does/does not die, how do I plan for casualties so my assaulting unit can make it in, how do I plan for poor terrain rolls - those are all planning mechanisms to deal with randomness. The best players position themselves to take advantage of good luck while avoiding the worst impact of the bad.

Sometimes you just straight up get hosed - but that is any army. I do not think Daemons are any more random than the chance to fail 5 of 6 terminator saves - I saw this happen yesterday - and lose 200+ points in models from some sluggas.

For Daemons - I get -1 to my invulnerable save, where do I position my units - in the wide open away from cover since hey, cover is as good as my invuln? What is hard to plan for - but not impossible - is for 'tail effects' that occur when you hit the extreme side of the probability spectrum. That is why I think it is a bit silly to say, bring all Khorne so that only one warp storm result hurts you. Instead, make sure to minimize the maximum for extreme events.

In list design you can play all MSU - but on that snake eyes, do not be surprised if you lose far more models than a players with a few larger units on leadership tests - more importantly, somehow those 18 Seekers are still effective in combat after losing 2 models to instability.

felixcat wrote:

Honestly, i would play demons if they gave warp flame skyfire. A simple fix to alleviate the worst pressure somewhat the worst scenarios we can face as demons.

With Divination Warpfire hits 11/36 of the time (which is basically BS 2 shots). You achieve about 50% more hits at their base BS 3 - but I am not sure if you really need it. It does not help against a Raven or Drake Front Armor - but those flyers cannot deny the with so you are guaranteed to get the shots. Too bad there is not a good way to grab divination in a Tzeetch dedicated unit.

**labmouse42**

Redbeard wrote:
Which ones?

I'm not going to google for you. Look up the names Blackmoor, Paul Murphy, and Neil Gilstrap. Mike Brandt has also been on the show on multiple occasions.
Before you go slamming popular 40k podcasts, I would suggest looking before you leap

Redbeard wrote:
"The 40k community" - really? That's kind of funny.

Yes, community. The 40k community is a group of gamers who like to play with little painted toy figures on a board. Most of the people I meet at events become friends. Even people I debate on this forum Ill buy a beer if I see them at an event. If your at adepticon Ill even buy you a beer.

40k is not a big hobby. You see the same people again and again at big events. That is "The 40k community".

**Redbeard**

labmouse42 wrote:
Redbeard wrote:
Which ones?
I'm not going to google for you. Look up the names Blackmoor, Paul Murphy, and Neil Gilstrap. Mike Brandt has also been on the show on multiple occasions.
Before you go slamming popular 40k podcasts, I would suggest looking before you leap

Would you believe I did look? Why don't you check out their website (http://www.tangtwo.com/11thcompany/index.cfm, and find where it lists who they are? Hint: it doesn't. There's no "about" page, no "who we are" page. As such, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask who they are or what they've done, because their site sure doesn't make it clear. I've played (and beat) Blackmoor at Adepticon a few years back, and lost to Brandt's mech guard in the team tournament a few years later, so I have an idea who these people are. I also see no evidence on the 11th company website that they're affiliated with it. Maybe they're just bad at web design though.

Redbeard wrote:
"The 40k community" - really? That's kind of funny.
Yes, community. The 40k community is a group of gamers who like to play with little painted toy figures on a board. Most of the people I meet at events become friends. Even people I debate on this forum Ill buy a beer if I see them at an event. If your at adepticon Ill even buy you a beer.

40k is not a big hobby. You see the same people again and again at big events. That is "The 40k community".

Right. And you claimed that the 11th company guys built it. That's a stretch. I'd say that Legoburner and Yakface did more to build the 40k community than any podcasters, but even dakka's not the entire 40k community.

I'll be at adepticon, and I'm not one to pass up a free beer, so I'll have to find you and take you up on that

I'll be playing Bloodbowl all day Sat and Sun though, because it's the only GW game that's remotely balanced anymore.

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

Redbeard wrote:

I used to have some of that in my sig, but it got too long. I've placed in the top ten of multiple GTs since 2007, and have a shelf full of trophies from both local tourneys and GTs. But really, that's not important, as I'm not the one professing to be an expert. If you throw down someone's opinion as authoritative on a subject, you should be prepared to explain why they're the authority.

Uh.huh sure you have. Forgive me for being incredulous since I can say and claim the exact same thing and you'd wouldn't be able to disprove it any more than I can prove/disprove your "shelf of trophies.

**Azreal13**

Redbeard wrote:
labmouse42 wrote:
Redbeard wrote:
Which ones?
I'm not going to google for you. Look up the names Blackmoor, Paul Murphy, and Neil Gilstrap. Mike Brandt has also been on the show on multiple occasions.
Before you go slamming popular 40k podcasts, I would suggest looking before you leap

Would you believe I did look? Why don't you check out their website (http://www.tangtwo.com/11thcompany/index.cfm, and find where it lists who they are? Hint: it doesn't. There's no "about" page, no "who we are" page. As such, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask who they are or what they've done, because their site sure doesn't make it clear. I've played (and beat) Blackmoor at Adepticon a few years back, and lost to Brandt's mech guard in the team tournament a few years later, so I have an idea who these people are. I also see no evidence on the 11th company website that they're affiliated with it. Maybe they're just bad at web design though.

Redbeard wrote:
"The 40k community" - really? That's kind of funny.
Yes, community. The 40k community is a group of gamers who like to play with little painted toy figures on a board. Most of the people I meet at events become friends. Even people I debate on this forum Ill buy a beer if I see them at an event. If your at adepticon Ill even buy you a beer.

40k is not a big hobby. You see the same people again and again at big events. That is "The 40k community".

Right. And you claimed that the 11th company guys built it. That's a stretch. I'd say that Legoburner and Yakface did more to build the 40k community than any podcasters, but even dakka's not the entire 40k community.

I'll be at adepticon, and I'm not one to pass up a free beer, so I'll have to find you and take you up on that I'll be playing Bloodbowl all day Sat and Sun though, because it's the only GW game that's remotely balanced anymore.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Redbeard wrote:

I used to have some of that in my sig, but it got too long. I've placed in the top ten of multiple GTs since 2007, and have a shelf full of trophies from both local tourneys and GTs. But really, that's not important, as I'm not the one professing to be an expert. If you throw down someone's opinion as authoritative on a subject, you should be prepared to explain why they're the authority.

Uh.huh sure you have. Forgive me for being incredulous since I can say and claim the exact same thing and you'd wouldn't be able to disprove it any more than I can prove/disprove your "shelf of trophies.

Erm.. Guys... Topic?

**Razerous**

(Mathhammer averages)

What is better? One Tzeechnian herald, exalted gift & lvl 2 psyker + 16 pink horrors;

Or two Soul Grinders (stock);

@ taking out AV12 flyers?

(My mathhammer says they are near dead equal. Granted a pair of AV13 walkers > 17 T3 troops. But I think it puts things in perceptive).

**Sasori**

I'm honestly not quite sure of the place for the LOC. Perhaps I'm not seeing it, but he just doesn't seem all that useful. His shooting is Medicore for a MC, and you really want precog, which is only a 1/6 chance to get. He also needs to be loaded up with 50 points of gifts. He just doesn't seem to do anything well, that the other GDs can't do better.

I'd rather spend the points on a GUO myself. Between two greater gifts, and three levels of biomancy, you up his viability quite a bit, and with all of that, he comes in cheaper than a lvl 3 LOC with two gifts. Yes, he is the slowest of the GDs, but he is incredibly hard to shift. So far, he has been incredible in my games against him, even against poison weapons.

**TzeentchNet**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Uh.huh sure you have. Forgive me for being incredulous since I can say and claim the exact same thing and you'd wouldn't be able to disprove it any more than I can prove/disprove your "shelf of trophies.

You'll forgive us if few people care about a handful of hardcore 40k players want to argue over who has the most pointless trophies for moving plastic army men around. Can you guys stick to the topic at hand?

**Puscifer**

calypso2ts wrote:
felixcat wrote:

Three relatively prevalent builds. I'm not surprised only one of you is taking them to a tournament. They are not 'subtle'. They are random. You cannot plan for random.

You can plan for random. Gamers do it all the time. Okay, I have 24 S6 shots into their Dakka Jet - it should die, but if it does not, where do I position the rest of my units? (man it would be so...so...RANDOM if it did not go down) Where do I position the rest of my army so they can have a good target if it does/does not die, how do I plan for casualties so my assaulting unit can make it in, how do I plan for poor terrain rolls - those are all planning mechanisms to deal with randomness. The best players position themselves to take advantage of good luck while avoiding the worst impact of the bad.

Sometimes you just straight up get hosed - but that is any army. I do not think Daemons are any more random than the chance to fail 5 of 6 terminator saves - I saw this happen yesterday - and lose 200+ points in models from some sluggas.

For Daemons - I get -1 to my invulnerable save, where do I position my units - in the wide open away from cover since hey, cover is as good as my invuln? What is hard to plan for - but not impossible - is for 'tail effects' that occur when you hit the extreme side of the probability spectrum. That is why I think it is a bit silly to say, bring all Khorne so that only one warp storm result hurts you. Instead, make sure to minimize the maximum for extreme events.

In list design you can play all MSU - but on that snake eyes, do not be surprised if you lose far more models than a players with a few larger units on leadership tests - more importantly, somehow those 18 Seekers are still effective in combat after losing 2 models to instability.

felixcat wrote:

Honestly, i would play demons if they gave warp flame skyfire. A simple fix to alleviate the worst pressure somewhat the worst scenarios we can face as demons.

With Divination Warpfire hits 11/36 of the time (which is basically BS 2 shots). You achieve about 50% more hits at their base BS 3 - but I am not sure if you really need it. It does not help against a Raven or Drake Front Armor - but those flyers cannot deny the with so you are guaranteed to get the shots. Too bad there is not a good way to grab divination in a Tzeetch dedicated unit.

I see exactly where Felix is coming from when he says you cannot prepare for random.

It's like the CSM but on a much more random scale.

You see I would be tempted to tourney them, but I'm not sure I'd be good at it. I've won two out of the three 40k I've entered and came 4th at a gt, but that was 11 years ago.

I'm starting daemons because I like the Nurgle models and I think they'll be fun to paint. I already know that they are fun to play as I tested the Nurgle force. Probably the most fun I've had in 40k for a long time.

**mercer**

Puscifer wrote:Interesting write up on the Beasts.

I've tested them in big units (5+) and the have done pretty well. The fact they are good charge blockers is a total bonus, but the fact you are rolling 5d6+5 for poisoned attacks is pretty good when that averages out at roughly 30 attacks on the charge with 20 wounds per unit.

Providing moving cover for the rest of the army is always welcomed too.

I am looking to use some Beasts. How they been doing over all?

GiraffeX wrote:Thanks for the review mercer I found it really informative and an easy read.

Great for those that dont have the codex yet, I really want to try a Slaanesh force now, I was going to do mono khorne but I'm not so sure now after reading your review of the bloodletters.

Glad you enjoyed it. Still got more to add yet.

phantommaster wrote:Nice review there. But my problem with the new codex is that taking a single God is no longer competitive, as stated all the units interact with each other, my 3000pts of pure Khorne are now pretty weak.

Also could you please confirm that the Bloodcrushers lost T5? I flicked through the other day and thought it was S5 they lost.

I don't think a single god was competitive in the previous codex to be honest.

Redbeard wrote:

Do you know what a force multiplier is? It doesn't mean he unlocks a different type of selection for a unit. That's unlocking.

A force multiplier is something that makes models around it better. For example, a Blood Angel Sanquinary Priest is a force multiplier - he gives everyone near him FNP. An ork mek with a forcefield grants a 5+ cover save to all units near him. That's a force multiplier. A bloodthirster, as kick-ass as it may be, is not a force multiplier, it's simply a powerful piece.

Really, if you're going to write reviews, do some basic research on terminology.

Chill out, dude. So what I got the word wrong. Come down from your high horse.

ers126 wrote:Thanks mercer for starting the thread. We have diverged a bit onto what armies are good/bad against demons so back to topic - reviewing the new codex.

My 2cents:
Chariots can be mean. Tzeentch chariot (regular or Herald) can take an ap2 etherblade. That makes for nasty sweep attacks.

Furies have potential. So cheap. LD2 can be overcome by adding a Herald (Disc, Steed, or Jugger to keep up).

Demon psychic powers are generally weak compared to the BRB. Kinda surprised there aren't a few gems in here.

Fiends lost Hit & Run.. that makes me sad.

Demons of Slaanesh have Rending. (the demons themselves, not rending claws like before). Does this mean ranged attacks also get Rending?

A few beefs.
GW - if you insist on reusing the names for gifts/power we all know and love from past editions, don't make it completely different and unrelated to said gift/power from before. eg, Pavane, Acquiesence, Lash, Bolt of Change, Soporific Musk, etc. Make up a new name.

Blue Horror tokens that cause S2 AP- hits? Really? Let's all agree to just ignore this waste of time. There's enough special rules/effects/counters to keep track of already. If you wanted to bring back Blue horrors then just make Pink horrors split into 2 blue horrors like they once did. Bonus to GW: We all have to buy more models.

I have been thinking of a greater blade on a Herald but I am not sure. I cannot remember their profile, but are they better in combat now compared to previously? Sweep attacks indeed.

I did take a long look at the Furies, but I think they wil snuff it to daemonic instability tests. I guess play tests will tell.

Rending only works with close combat attacks as per brb.

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labmouse42 wrote:
felixcat wrote:
Do I sound whiney? I'm not really that person. But I see the codex and cannot wonder what GW was thinking. Make Xenos unplayable?
That's funny. I was just listening to the 11th company podcast and every one on the podcast was saying that Xenos are the only armies to play right now. They also all said the daemon codex was very good.

Isn't it funny how the grass is always greener under the other armies boots?

I am also loving xenos at the moment too. Refreshing from Imperium/power armour armies.

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lordofthegophers wrote:
I stopped reading after you gave the Lord of Change 5/10.

Wow, you raged quite because you do not agree with my ratings? I said at the beginning this is MY opinion and maybe different to yours. You shouldn't stop reading just because I gave something a low reading which you do not agree with.