Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 mercer wrote:
Meh, not sure why people worry about a single unit in just one army. I know it is badass, but not like a huge changer. I haven't seen any Cruader-Banner armies yet, though I have seen a Banner-Ravenwing - that gak is deadly!

I've faced those. They are a lot less deadly when you have helldrakes.

I think they are a hard counter to daemons, however. That many salvo-4 TL bolter shots will shred large blocks of T3.

 labmouse42 wrote:

I think they are a hard counter to daemons, however. That many salvo-4 TL bolter shots will shred large blocks of T3.

But, you can at least use the scout move of your flesh hounds to counter their scout move. Assuming a standard 24" of separation between forces, his bikes scout 12", you scout forward 11" and turn your dogs sideways. His next turn, his bikes CANNOT move forward (assuming you have a large block of dogs). They can just sit there and shoot at the dogs. They cannot assault either. Any surviving puppies would then get to assault him.

This would only be a 1 turn delaying tactic (and would cost you about 320 points), but it is something that can be done to keep your vehicles alive from those scouting attack bikes with multi-melta.

Green is Best! wrote:

 mercer wrote:
Added elites.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 labmouse42 wrote:
You know, I've not been seeing many marines lately. I occasionally still see the SW drop pod army, but they are less common.

Helldrakes have changed the meta so much that I'm just not seeing many foot based MEQ armies. Those MEQ armies I do see are DA land raider/bolter banners armies.

Meh, not sure why people worry about a single unit in just one army. I know it is badass, but not like a huge changer. I haven't seen any Cruader-Banner armies yet, though I have seen a Banner-Ravenwing - that gak is deadly!

I went up against one that had 30+ bikes and the banner that made all bolters salvo 2/4. That is 4 twin-linked shots per bike. It was pretty mean. It did not help that I rolled snake eyes for my helldrakes on turn 2 reserves. Was a very painful game.

Dude at a club goes to plays a list like that. I also wrote one recently, not sure if he decided to stick the banner in after seeing mine or not, I know he didn't have it before. Always fancied a bike army.

I think that the bolter/landraider is going to be the new standard MEQ build for a while. As long as 'helldrake does as helldrake pleases' anyway. This is simply because the helldrakes are just so darn effective at destroying MEQ. Anything not in a box, and preferably a hard to crack box, needs to have a 2+ or it will fry.

The problem is that the bolter land raiders are a hard counter to the daemon spam. Each land raider will be killing ~12 daemonettes per turn. Spread that out over three land raiders and you will have some problems. The biggest problem, of course, is actually hurting them. What do daemons have that can hurt the land raiders. Sure you can rush your seekers/khonre dogs up there. What do you do to em once your there?

You could run tons of plague bearers. That same land raider will be killing 2.39 plague bearers per turn. If they have a FNP herald with them, they will be losing 1.59 plague bearers a turn. Three land raiders could shoot everything for 6 rounds into one squad of plague bearers and would wipe them out by turn 6. The problem, of course, is that by going with a plague bearer build your making yourself weak to other builds.

40k is a lot more of rock/sissor/paper/lizard/spock game today than it was in 5th edition.

Interesting write up on the Beasts.

I've tested them in big units (5+) and the have done pretty well. The fact they are good charge blockers is a total bonus, but the fact you are rolling 5d6+5 for poisoned attacks is pretty good when that averages out at roughly 30 attacks on the charge with 20 wounds per unit.

Providing moving cover for the rest of the army is always welcomed too.

 labmouse42 wrote:
The problem is that the bolter land raiders are a hard counter to the daemon spam. Each land raider will be killing ~12 daemonettes per turn. Spread that out over three land raiders and you will have some problems. The biggest problem, of course, is actually hurting them. What do daemons have that can hurt the land raiders. Sure you can rush your seekers/khonre dogs up there. What do you do to em once your there?

.

Screamers and plague drones are fast enough to hit a land raider. Screamers still have armourbane and plague drones only need to roll 4 6's. Both units are tough and can be made tougher through grimoire use. FMCs still have smash. A soulgrinder can take heavy bolter shots all day and fire away with tongue backed up with prescience. You can even deep strike an SG off a plague drones unit to get the best positioning and alpha strike.

Screamers have 1 attack each if they want to use lamprey bite.
Being STR 5, they need to roll at least a 9 to glance, and a 10 to penetrate on 2d6.
If the land raider moved, they each screamer has a 18% of stripping a hull point off, and a 11% of penetrating.
Remember the DA land raiders have a 4+ invlun save from their stupid force field, and their venerable so you need to roll a 5+ on a penetrating hit twice to destroy it.
9 screamers are extremely unlikely to destroy the land raider.

Plague drones hit on a 3+ then need a 6 to glance. This means each attack has a .11% of stripping a hull point.
To strip 4 hull points, you will need about 36 attacks to do the job -- or 9 plague drones. If your facing a land radier with a force field you will 2 of those squads.
One squad of those guys sets you back 378 points.

Those DA land raiders are stupidly hard to kill and stupidly good at dealing damage. Last weekend I charged one with a DP wielding the axe of blind fury. Even with 9 attacks, I failed to blow one up. I knocked off 2 hull points and stunned it. The other two land raiders then shot my DP to bits. Smash is great, but it does not give enough hits.

What makes them so hard to kill are the venerable rule, the 4++ force field, and the techmarine fixing them. The fact they get salvo 4 with their bolters, a MM, and an AC mean they can hurt anything. I have a huge respect for the durability and firepower of the DA land raider spam. I think thats going to be the 'sleeper build' for MEQ. It will get knocked out by Tau when the codex is released, I'm sure

They have some hard counters. Melta spam will take them out, due to the number of melta shots. Manticore spam causes them issues. DA beast/witch spam causes big problems. But I don't know a solution that daemons have that's a hard counter aside from plague bearer spam.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Screamers have 1 attack each if they want to use lamprey bite.
Being STR 5, they need to roll at least a 9 to glance, and a 10 to penetrate on 2d6.
If the land raider moved, they each screamer has a 18% of stripping a hull point off, and a 11% of penetrating.
Remember the DA land raiders have a 4+ invlun save from their stupid force field, and their venerable so you need to roll a 5+ on a penetrating hit twice to destroy it.
9 screamers are extremely unlikely to destroy the land raider.

Plague drones hit on a 3+ then need a 6 to glance. This means each attack has a .11% of stripping a hull point.
To strip 4 hull points, you will need about 36 attacks to do the job -- or 9 plague drones. If your facing a land radier with a force field you will 2 of those squads.
One squad of those guys sets you back 378 points.

Those DA land raiders are stupidly hard to kill and stupidly good at dealing damage. Last weekend I charged one with a DP wielding the axe of blind fury. Even with 9 attacks, I failed to blow one up. I knocked off 2 hull points and stunned it. The other two land raiders then shot my DP to bits. Smash is great, but it does not give enough hits.

What makes them so hard to kill are the venerable rule, the 4++ force field, and the techmarine fixing them. The fact they get salvo 4 with their bolters, a MM, and an AC mean they can hurt anything. I have a huge respect for the durability and firepower of the DA land raider spam. I think thats going to be the 'sleeper build' for MEQ. It will get knocked out by Tau when the codex is released, I'm sure

They have some hard counters. Melta spam will take them out, due to the number of melta shots. Manticore spam causes them issues. DA beast/witch spam causes big problems. But I don't know a solution that daemons have that's a hard counter aside from plague bearer spam.

and so a return of DE in at least being an allies option. No codex deals with landraiders like DE.

I'm thinking of DE as Allies too, but they are too fragile imo and you can't bring enough to make a difference.

DE in raiders is key. You need to be able to have protection against that first volley of bolter shots that are incoming. A smart DA player will ignore the beast pack of cheeze and just focus on the wytches.
And yes, the DE wytches with haywire are an excellent counter.

Dark lances are not really all that hot. Each shot has a .166% of stripping off a hull point. You would need such a crap-ton of dark lances to explode 3 land radiers its not even funny.

Now, 3 squads of wytches with hawire gernades though.....

Thanks for the review mercer I found it really informative and an easy read.

Great for those that dont have the codex yet, I really want to try a Slaanesh force now, I was going to do mono khorne but I'm not so sure now after reading your review of the bloodletters.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Screamers have 1 attack each if they want to use lamprey bite.
Being STR 5, they need to roll at least a 9 to glance, and a 10 to penetrate on 2d6.
If the land raider moved, they each screamer has a 18% of stripping a hull point off, and a 11% of penetrating.
Remember the DA land raiders have a 4+ invlun save from their stupid force field, and their venerable so you need to roll a 5+ on a penetrating hit twice to destroy it.
9 screamers are extremely unlikely to destroy the land raider.

Plague drones hit on a 3+ then need a 6 to glance. This means each attack has a .11% of stripping a hull point.
To strip 4 hull points, you will need about 36 attacks to do the job -- or 9 plague drones. If your facing a land radier with a force field you will 2 of those squads.
One squad of those guys sets you back 378 points.

Those DA land raiders are stupidly hard to kill and stupidly good at dealing damage. Last weekend I charged one with a DP wielding the axe of blind fury. Even with 9 attacks, I failed to blow one up. I knocked off 2 hull points and stunned it. The other two land raiders then shot my DP to bits. Smash is great, but it does not give enough hits.

What makes them so hard to kill are the venerable rule, the 4++ force field, and the techmarine fixing them. The fact they get salvo 4 with their bolters, a MM, and an AC mean they can hurt anything. I have a huge respect for the durability and firepower of the DA land raider spam. I think thats going to be the 'sleeper build' for MEQ. It will get knocked out by Tau when the codex is released, I'm sure

They have some hard counters. Melta spam will take them out, due to the number of melta shots. Manticore spam causes them issues. DA beast/witch spam causes big problems. But I don't know a solution that daemons have that's a hard counter aside from plague bearer spam.

I don't put much faith in math hammer. I've actually done it twice now in the game with 9 screamers plus herald on disc with grimoire of true names.

Will I eventually fail my dice rolls...or my opponent roll godly? Math hammer says so, but it won't stop me from throwing my Screamers unit at a landraider or monolith or whatever av14 is across from me. It is one of the best unit/combos in the dex IMO. If they FAQ that Lamprey's Bite still gets the +1 A for charging (crosses fingers) then all the better.

I haven't tried it with plague drones yet. YMMV

Nice review there. But my problem with the new codex is that taking a single God is no longer competitive, as stated all the units interact with each other, my 3000pts of pure Khorne are now pretty weak.

Also could you please confirm that the Bloodcrushers lost T5? I flicked through the other day and thought it was S5 they lost.

 phantommaster wrote:
Nice review there. But my problem with the new codex is that taking a single God is no longer competitive, as stated all the units interact with each other, my 3000pts of pure Khorne are now pretty weak.

Also could you please confirm that the Bloodcrushers lost T5? I flicked through the other day and thought it was S5 they lost.

Crushers are T4
Letters are T3

Sad day for fans of Khorne Flakes everywhere.

Letters are on par with daemonettes and horrors.
Crushers on par with plaguebearers.

 labmouse42 wrote:
DE in raiders is key. You need to be able to have protection against that first volley of bolter shots that are incoming. A smart DA player will ignore the beast pack of cheeze and just focus on the wytches.
And yes, the DE wytches with haywire are an excellent counter.

Dark lances are not really all that hot. Each shot has a .166% of stripping off a hull point. You would need such a crap-ton of dark lances to explode 3 land radiers its not even funny.

Now, 3 squads of wytches with hawire gernades though.....

assuming each radier has a 4++:
certainly, but each shot has of .11 chance of getting a damage result, at +1 on the chart, and while that is only a 1/3 chance of blowing it up and with the reroll worse, when you factor in other results like imobilized or blowing off a weapon it is nice. Add in the fact that DE dark lances are cheap and spammable and you have a recipe for success(1 LR costs the same as 6 dark lances on platforms, and that is before the techmarine with the 4++ field or venerable). Also you are talking about LR spam and by all codexes. All marine codexes do not have 4++ LRs and even DA would be hard pressed to give it too 3 raiders. (can they even?)

I don't think the DA Raider armies are viable all-comers lists-- the Ravenwing variations on the same theme seem much stronger. The problem with the Raider armies is that Dark Eldar and Necrons both rip them apart by simply removing all the Hull Points from the Raiders. Further, LR armies are inherently too luck-based and "swingy" to see true GT competitive play in my opinion. The chances of getting your lynchpin unit killed by a lucky melta, lascannon, lance, or railgun are too high for this type of army to win seven games.

Anyone notice that IG is now -way- better at fighting daemons than, say Grey Knights?

You don't need Nemesis weaponry because they are no longer EW. You don't even need psycannons and other heavy, arcane stuff because the Tougness of everything but a Greater Daemon is way down. And it's actually a bad idea to lug tons of psykers around them as that is just asking to spawn more heralds.

Nah, just fire lasgun volleys into the troops and pump Vendetta lascannons and plasmavet fire into the big stuff, and you'll be fine. Safer, too.

 Sephyr wrote:

Anyone notice that IG is now -way- better at fighting daemons than, say Grey Knights?

You don't need Nemesis weaponry because they are no longer EW. You don't even need psycannons and other heavy, arcane stuff because the Tougness of everything but a Greater Daemon is way down. And it's actually a bad idea to lug tons of psykers around them as that is just asking to spawn more heralds.

Nah, just fire lasgun volleys into the troops and pump Vendetta lascannons and plasmavet fire into the big stuff, and you'll be fine. Safer, too.

mass str 5 storm bolters do pretty well in my mind against daemons now. Not that many GK use them enough, but its an idea.

 mercer wrote:

Bloodthirster

...

Note that the Bloodthirster is a force multiplier and Daemon Princes who have the daemon of khorne upgrade are heavy support instead of HQ choices.

Do you know what a force multiplier is? It doesn't mean he unlocks a different type of selection for a unit. That's unlocking.

A force multiplier is something that makes models around it better. For example, a Blood Angel Sanquinary Priest is a force multiplier - he gives everyone near him FNP. An ork mek with a forcefield grants a 5+ cover save to all units near him. That's a force multiplier. A bloodthirster, as kick-ass as it may be, is not a force multiplier, it's simply a powerful piece.

Really, if you're going to write reviews, do some basic research on terminology.

Thanks mercer for starting the thread. We have diverged a bit onto what armies are good/bad against demons so back to topic - reviewing the new codex.

My 2cents:
Chariots can be mean. Tzeentch chariot (regular or Herald) can take an ap2 etherblade. That makes for nasty sweep attacks.

Furies have potential. So cheap. LD2 can be overcome by adding a Herald (Disc, Steed, or Jugger to keep up).

Demon psychic powers are generally weak compared to the BRB. Kinda surprised there aren't a few gems in here.

Fiends lost Hit & Run.. that makes me sad.

Demons of Slaanesh have Rending. (the demons themselves, not rending claws like before). Does this mean ranged attacks also get Rending?

A few beefs.
GW - if you insist on reusing the names for gifts/power we all know and love from past editions, don't make it completely different and unrelated to said gift/power from before. eg, Pavane, Acquiesence, Lash, Bolt of Change, Soporific Musk, etc. Make up a new name.

Blue Horror tokens that cause S2 AP- hits? Really? Let's all agree to just ignore this waste of time. There's enough special rules/effects/counters to keep track of already. If you wanted to bring back Blue horrors then just make Pink horrors split into 2 blue horrors like they once did. Bonus to GW: We all have to buy more models.

This review is making me want to try a Daemons Undivided list.

Any pointers?

I just love the hilarity of the 11-strong pink horrors. 6 squads of.

A) Amazing, can be very flexible and have large volumes of firepower. Firepower which causes the addition hits and wounds. Similar concept to the melta-cutters and Tesla Destructor's.

B) Too fickle with most games ending with squads shrugging off too much firepower because of 'gifted' FNP.

Only a mere ~600pts. A good troop choice core... or a hilarious but failed concept?

Razerous wrote:
...11-strong pink horrors. 6 squads of...

Too risky, IMO. Against armies that can shut down psychic powers effectively, your troops are rendered 50% reliable. Deny the witch denies their firepower. And horrors will melt away in close combat. (They don't even have overwatch, if I interpret the rules correctly, since their "shooting" is a psychic power.) Against eldar, tyranids, certain SM/Space Wolves armies, this army will struggle mightily. It's a paper army scissors armies will shred to ribbons.

Razerous wrote:
I just love the hilarity of the 11-strong pink horrors. 6 squads of.

A) Amazing, can be very flexible and have large volumes of firepower. Firepower which causes the addition hits and wounds. Similar concept to the melta-cutters and Tesla Destructor's.

B) Too fickle with most games ending with squads shrugging off too much firepower because of 'gifted' FNP.

Only a mere ~600pts. A good troop choice core... or a hilarious but failed concept?

If you think thats fun, in a high point game, 1200 pts for 120 horrors (6x20) is practically trolling your opponent

 tinfoil wrote:

Razerous wrote:
...11-strong pink horrors. 6 squads of...

Too risky, IMO. Against armies that can shut down psychic powers effectively, your troops are rendered 50% reliable. Deny the witch denies their firepower. And horrors will melt away in close combat. (They don't even have overwatch, if I interpret the rules correctly, since their "shooting" is a psychic power.) Against eldar, tyranids, certain SM/Space Wolves armies, this army will struggle mightily. It's a paper army scissors armies will shred to ribbons.

I agree to all of those things. I'm musing on whether or not their firepower is potent enough to balance out the DtW & Casting rolls.

As for overwatch, spot on sir - this is why I reckon they gave them the blue horror rule which, again, is quite amusing, they'll be laughing from their graves!

As for survivability, just-as-good as most of the other troop choices. Doing more upfront damage (hopefully). And, what do you think, if the beam power is rolled, it is serviceable anti-tank - as the beam auto-hit offsets the random D6 damage roll. Thoughts?

mass str 5 storm bolters do pretty well in my mind against daemons now. Not that many GK use them enough, but its an idea.

Here is your problem. Let's look at a GK list. I nsend in my Interceptors and DK with incinerators ... goodbye whole squads. Or I take what a friend likes ... Purgation with incinerators in storm ravens. Goodbye squads. Or I take some rhinos and rush them down your throat blocking your cc squads and then shoot them to bits. Or I simply use Heldrakes and Night Scythes. Maybe A, Barges. Goodbye to everything. FMCs are just not good. I could go on but why. Almost every army out there can hurt demons. Some more than others of course - GK,Necs, DE.

FMCs are a big joke. They will and do get shot down way to easily and they are your anti-flyer. So forget about anti-flyer. Who cares that I get them as heavy support. I don't want them.

Your Soulgrinders are not taking out any AV12+ period. Still, not a bad unit - I would want Khorne for the cheapest mark. Maybe bring them to an icon w/instrument early. Khorne Cannon are overated on the net badly. Already discussed FMCs. Flying Circus never was the best demon build.

Your troops are a joke with their T3 5+. I see some decent units ... deamonettes, 'letters but they are cc units. Good luck getting consistent results at a tournament with these. And you cannot play horde with these troops. Guardsmen have the same stats. Seriously. You take a fantasy codex and convert it to 40K?

Heralds are okay - not too fond of Nurgle, Khorne Juggy is acceptable. It is Tzeentch and Slaanesh that are best methinks. A Slaanesh Herald Exalted, Steed Lvl 2 with some seekers are a very good unit. A juggy Herald with flesh hounds are okay (not as good as seekers).

The codex is just bad. You were better with the old flamer/screamer lists. Now both got the nerf bat and we were not given anything of note in return.

Do you like the gifts and loci and instrument and icon and lash rules? And Warp Storm? ? Pages of nonsense. Oh there are some usuable ones but still ... I don't want to hear that Grimoire is an auto-include anymore. It is not.

And to finish off - how am I going to succeed with demons when they are so random. Yes there is demonic instability. I'm not optimistic.

Do I sound whiney? I'm not really that person. But I see the codex and cannot wonder what GW was thinking. Make Xenos unplayable?

 felixcat wrote:

mass str 5 storm bolters do pretty well in my mind against daemons now. Not that many GK use them enough, but its an idea.

Here is your problem. Let's look at a GK list. I nsend in my Interceptors and DK with incinerators ... goodbye whole squads. Or I take what a friend likes ... Purgation with incinerators in storm ravens. Goodbye squads. Or I take some rhinos and rush them down your throat blocking your cc squads and then shoot them to bits. Or I simply use Heldrakes and Night Scythes. Maybe A, Barges. Goodbye to everything. FMCs are just not good. I could go on but why. Almost every army out there can hurt demons. Some more than others of course - GK,Necs, DE.

FMCs are a big joke. They will and do get shot down way to easily and they are your anti-flyer. So forget about anti-flyer. Who cares that I get them as heavy support. I don't want them.

Your Soulgrinders are not taking out any AV12+ period. Still, not a bad unit - I would want Khorne for the cheapest mark. Maybe bring them to an icon w/instrument early. Khorne Cannon are overated on the net badly. Already discussed FMCs. Flying Circus never was the best demon build.

Your troops are a joke with their T3 5+. I see some decent units ... deamonettes, 'letters but they are cc units. Good luck getting consistent results at a tournament with these. And you cannot play horde with these troops. Guardsmen have the same stats. Seriously. You take a fantasy codex and convert it to 40K?

Heralds are okay - not too fond of Nurgle, Khorne Juggy is acceptable. It is Tzeentch and Slaanesh that are best methinks. A Slaanesh Herald Exalted, Steed Lvl 2 with some seekers are a very good unit. A juggy Herald with flesh hounds are okay (not as good as seekers).

The codex is just bad. You were better with the old flamer/screamer lists. Now both got the nerf bat and we were not given anything of note in return.

Do you like the gifts and loci and instrument and icon and lash rules? And Warp Storm? ? Pages of nonsense. Oh there are some usuable ones but still ... I don't want to hear that Grimoire is an auto-include anymore. It is not.

And to finish off - how am I going to succeed with demons when they are so random. Yes there is demonic instability. I'm not optimistic.

Do I sound whiney? I'm not really that person. But I see the codex and cannot wonder what GW was thinking. Make Xenos unplayable?

I think your selling the codex short and overall your post does come across a bit doom and gloom.
Give them a chance and if you have some daemons already play some games with them and try them out then decide what you think.

Personally Im looking forward to playing a horde daemon army and I think they would be decently competitive.

 felixcat wrote:

mass str 5 storm bolters do pretty well in my mind against daemons now. Not that many GK use them enough, but its an idea.

Here is your problem. Let's look at a GK list. I nsend in my Interceptors and DK with incinerators ... goodbye whole squads. Or I take what a friend likes ... Purgation with incinerators in storm ravens. Goodbye squads. Or I take some rhinos and rush them down your throat blocking your cc squads and then shoot them to bits. Or I simply use Heldrakes and Night Scythes. Maybe A, Barges. Goodbye to everything. FMCs are just not good. I could go on but why. Almost every army out there can hurt demons. Some more than others of course - GK,Necs, DE.

FMCs are a big joke. They will and do get shot down way to easily and they are your anti-flyer. So forget about anti-flyer. Who cares that I get them as heavy support. I don't want them.

Your Soulgrinders are not taking out any AV12+ period. Still, not a bad unit - I would want Khorne for the cheapest mark. Maybe bring them to an icon w/instrument early. Khorne Cannon are overated on the net badly. Already discussed FMCs. Flying Circus never was the best demon build.

Your troops are a joke with their T3 5+. I see some decent units ... deamonettes, 'letters but they are cc units. Good luck getting consistent results at a tournament with these. And you cannot play horde with these troops. Guardsmen have the same stats. Seriously. You take a fantasy codex and convert it to 40K?

Heralds are okay - not too fond of Nurgle, Khorne Juggy is acceptable. It is Tzeentch and Slaanesh that are best methinks. A Slaanesh Herald Exalted, Steed Lvl 2 with some seekers are a very good unit. A juggy Herald with flesh hounds are okay (not as good as seekers).

The codex is just bad. You were better with the old flamer/screamer lists. Now both got the nerf bat and we were not given anything of note in return.

Do you like the gifts and loci and instrument and icon and lash rules? And Warp Storm? ? Pages of nonsense. Oh there are some usuable ones but still ... I don't want to hear that Grimoire is an auto-include anymore. It is not.

And to finish off - how am I going to succeed with demons when they are so random. Yes there is demonic instability. I'm not optimistic.

Do I sound whiney? I'm not really that person. But I see the codex and cannot wonder what GW was thinking. Make Xenos unplayable?

Bloodthirster v. Dreadknight. Tell me how long the DK lasts in CC against 6 S7 AP2 attacks at I9. That one 12" S6 AP2 attack that's basically twin-linked thanks to BS10 is only helping.

Letters have the Banner of Blood once per game for that 6+D6" charge. That's rather helpful.

As for flyers... Sure, it is not hard to ground FMC's. However, a normal Bloodletter has BS5. suddenly, that icarus LC on the ADL seems almost worth it. Even more so with a herald, and god-forbid you have Skulltaker manning the Icarus.

Why waste pts on lascannons when you could get more daemons? :p

I agree with Xeriapt, a lot of people are selling the Daemons book short and disregarding a book with a fair amount of powerful builds.

My friends and I have been testing several builds against many tourney staples and possible powerful fringe builds in hopes of going to tourneys later this year.

The only bad matchups we've had are Heldrake Spam, DA Banner/Land Raider and Dark Eldar. GK are at best 50/50 against us and are close games. Guard can be a hassle too, but only if you don't know how to take them out. Hitting them hard on the flank tends to work well.