Chaos Daemons codex review - added heavy support!

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**Redbeard**

mercer wrote:

I don't think a single god was competitive in the previous codex to be honest.

It all depends on at what point during the last codex's time you're talking about. Mono-Khorne and Mono-Nurgle both did reasonably well before mech-spam started taking over. Mono-tzeentch did especially well after WD dropped.

Chill out, dude. So what I got the word wrong. Come down from your high horse.

When you're writing a review, the wrong word pretty much undermines the point of the review. What's more, it's not just a wrong word, it's an entirely wrong concept, which kind of calls into question the rest of your analysis. If you don't know the difference between a Force Multiplier and a Hammer, what else are you getting wrong?

**labmouse42**

mercer wrote:
Wow, you raged quite because you do not agree with my ratings? I said at the beginning this is MY opinion and maybe different to yours. You shouldn't stop reading just because I gave something a low reading which you do not agree with.

Take it all with a grain of salt man.
If Jesus himself were to post on this forum, people would po-po on him for not showing up earlier.
Nothing happens on the internet without someone saying "that sucks".

Thanks for putting the effort into thinking about the CD codex and bringing forth productive conversation about it.

**ers126**

I did take a long look at the Furies, but I think they wil snuff it to daemonic instability tests. I guess play tests will tell.

Adding a herald should fix that. Instability is a leadership so should use the highest LD in the unit. And gives them some punch.

**Continuity**

How viable is a Lord of Change with the Grimoire as ally? If the grimoire does what I think it does he's getting a 3++ on a 3+ every turn with no penalties if he fails, able to do fly-by divination buffs to friendlies and butchers most units on the ground

**felixcat**

Lord of Change is the big daddy pimp stick beater of the codex. Unfortunately he is also 305 points tricked out. As your own HQ I would use him above any other GD. In an allied detachmemnt? Not sure. Depends who you allying with. CSM have their own DPs. I would use him with IG.

I fully intend to play demons since I own enough models despite all my comments but I'm going to add allies to my list. At this point I'm favoring CSM to get a Heldrake and a large squad of cultists with a dark apostle (Tzeentch). I think they would work with IG as well using a platoon and Vendettas - not original but ...

**keltikhoa**

Continuity wrote:
How viable is a Lord of Change with the Grimoire as ally? If the grimoire does what I think it does he's getting a 3++ on a 3+ every turn with no penalties if he fails, able to do fly-by divination buffs to friendlies and butchers most units on the ground

the grimoire cant be used on the guy holding it, You either buff (chance to debuff) one of your "daemon" units or you debuff an enemy "daemon" unit. If you took a LoC with the grimoire you would only be buffing whatever else you brought in as allies.

**Exergy**

keltikhoa wrote:
Continuity wrote:
How viable is a Lord of Change with the Grimoire as ally? If the grimoire does what I think it does he's getting a 3++ on a 3+ every turn with no penalties if he fails, able to do fly-by divination buffs to friendlies and butchers most units on the ground

the grimoire cant be used on the guy holding it, You either buff (chance to debuff) one of your "daemon" units or you debuff an enemy "daemon" unit. If you took a LoC with the grimoire you would only be buffing whatever else you brought in as allies.

or potentially CSM daemon allies

**Dawnofthedoug**

The LOC is also great because he can take the staff, effecitively making him the only GD with st 8, with rerolls since he should have prescience.

**Continuity**

keltikhoa wrote:
Continuity wrote:
How viable is a Lord of Change with the Grimoire as ally? If the grimoire does what I think it does he's getting a 3++ on a 3+ every turn with no penalties if he fails, able to do fly-by divination buffs to friendlies and butchers most units on the ground

the grimoire cant be used on the guy holding it, You either buff (chance to debuff) one of your "daemon" units or you debuff an enemy "daemon" unit. If you took a LoC with the grimoire you would only be buffing whatever else you brought in as allies.

Balls, I read the first half of the rules and missed the second half.

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

Dawnofthedoug wrote:
The LOC is also great because he can take the staff, effecitively making him the only GD with st 8, with rerolls since he should have prescience.

Not quite, Bloodthrister with Greater Etherblade will also be S8, but only on the charge, Though considering how many attacks he has, that should be more than enough.

**mercer**

Redbeard wrote:

It all depends on at what point during the last codex's time you're talking about. Mono-Khorne and Mono-Nurgle both did reasonably well before mech-spam started taking over. Mono-tzeentch did especially well after WD dropped.

I started Daemons just before the W.D codex dropped. TBH I started Daemons as was looking to use them for Fantasy. I was just told that mono gods builds wasn't that good.

labmouse42 wrote:
mercer wrote:
Wow, you raged quite because you do not agree with my ratings? I said at the beginning this is MY opinion and maybe different to yours. You shouldn't stop reading just because I gave something a low reading which you do not agree with.
Take it all with a grain of salt man.
If Jesus himself were to post on this forum, people would po-po on him for not showing up earlier.
Nothing happens on the internet without someone saying "that sucks". Thanks for putting the effort into thinking about the CD codex and bringing forth productive conversation about it.

I'll be honest, I don't lose sleep over nobodies over the internet

.

Fast attack added, check it out

ers126 wrote:

I did take a long look at the Furies, but I think they wil snuff it to daemonic instability tests. I guess play tests will tell.

Adding a herald should fix that. Instability is a leadership so should use the highest LD in the unit. And gives them some punch.

Fair point

**labmouse42**

I think your selling seekers a little bit short in your review.
While they are much more fragile than Khorne dogs, they are a lot more killy. Having rending attacks means that, unlike the korne dogs, they won't bounce off a 3+ save.

Also, one of the good thing of Khorne dogs is they can be a great delivery system for a herald on a jugg. One or two of those can do a lot of killing.

Edit : I've not tried either yet, so my thoughts are all theoryhammer. Someone who has played them both can prob give more insight.

**mercer**

Fast Attack has been added.

**sudojoe**

From what I gathered on reading the HQ's, Lord of change can't really fire off a 4d6 shot and cast prescience on himself and debuff the enemy as he only has 3 warp charges. You'll have to get additional heralds or something to buff him and debuff the enemy. The way your review has it written it seems like he can get 4d6 and debuff and buff himself which I think is very different in how he's actually played.

Not quite a one man nuke party but does require support.

Any thoughts on the named characters at all? I'm personally really liking skarbrand. I've run him before next to a bunch of slanesh seekers before and they just about evaporate enemy troops/infantry. Skarbrand himself can also wreck vehicles pretty easily so it's been pretty fun to throw around. Biggest problem I have with him now is that it's really hard to keep up with seekers going at top speeds.

**Sasori**

I think taking the banner on the Plague Drones is a bad idea, they are much better off with the Rot Probosces. Mann did the math in another thread, but it pretty much increases their chances to wound MEQ from 50% to something like 89%.

I am also a fan of Screamers, and think you would be better off using your regular attacks on a charge, and using the Lamprey's bite in subsequent combat rounds. They also still have the Slashing attack, which is very useful.

**mercer**

sudojoe wrote:From what I gathered on reading the HQ's, Lord of change can't really fire off a 4d6 shot and cast prescience on himself and debuff the enemy as he only has 3 warp charges. You'll have to get additional heralds or something to buff him and debuff the enemy. The way your review has it written it seems like he can get 4d6 and debuff and buff himself which I think is very different in how he's actually played.

Not quite a one man nuke party but does require support.

Any thoughts on the named characters at all? I'm personally really liking skarbrand. I've run him before next to a bunch of slanesh seekers before and they just about evaporate enemy troops/infantry. Skarbrand himself can also wreck vehicles pretty easily so it's been pretty fun to throw around. Biggest problem I have with him now is that it's really hard to keep up with seekers going at top speeds.

I am not sure where you're getting your info from as I never mentioned anything like that. I just said the powers which can be used and which disciplines from the rulebook.

I will be doing named characters tomorrow.

Sasori wrote:I think taking the banner on the Plague Drones is a bad idea, they are much better off with the Rot Probosces. Mann did the math in another thread, but it pretty much increases their chances to wound MEQ from 50% to something like 89%.

I am also a fan of Screamers, and think you would be better off using your regular attacks on a charge, and using the Lamprey's bite in subsequent combat rounds. They also still have the Slashing attack, which is very useful.

Sounds awesome

.

I would also do the same with the Screamers, use the lamprey bite to finish off the enemy unit in the opponent's assault phase. The slashing attack hasn't changed from the W.D update so I didn't see the point in mentioning something which people would more than likely know about.

**labmouse42**

Pardon the question, but don't plague drones already wound MEQ 75% of the time?
They are STR 4, and have the 4+ poisoned plaguesword.

Provided they are not facing STR 10 weapons, they are extremely tough. At 14 points a wound/attack they are between seekers and khorne dogs in price per wound. They have T5 which makes them tough. What they fall behind is the choppa per point. At 14 points per attack, they are more expensive than khorne dogs, and much more so than seekers (who are 4 points per attack)

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Sasori wrote:
I am also a fan of Screamers, and think you would be better off using your regular attacks on a charge, and using the Lamprey's bite in subsequent combat rounds. They also still have the Slashing attack, which is very useful.

Yea, the slashing attack is awesome. Since it does not need to roll 'to hit' its better than bolters. The only drawback is that you have to go over the unit you want to strike, so you need a safe spot to land.

**Exergy**

mercer wrote:
Screamers of Tzeentch

Like the Flamers, Screamers took the nerf bat hard and were brought all the way down to china town. While they did need reigning in, I feel they have gone from one extreme to the other.

Screamers have a slashing attack rule which works exactly the same as before and like Dark Eldar Reavers slash attack. The lamprey's bite is still S5 AP2 armourbane however you substitute ALL attacks for ONE lamprey's bite attack.

Here's a little mathammer how Screamers will work against Space Marines now:

6 x Screamers charge 10 x Tactical Marines. Marines overwatch with 20 shots - hit with 3 - wound with 2 - 1 failed invulnerable save.

Screamers get 24 attacks - hit with 12 - wound with 6 - 2 dead Tactical Marines.

Marine are I4 so strike at the same time; they will get 11 attacks - hit with 7 - wound with 4 - 3 failed saves

Lets do the same but try lamprey's bite instead:

Screamers get 6 attacks (will they get charge attacks with lamprey's bite?) - hit with 3 - kill 2 Tactical Marines.

So combat with lamprey's bite is the same with normal attacks when fighting against Space Marines. Of course against xenos or anything not in power armour or better is going to be taking the pain. Also Screamers will still chew up vehicles or basic transports, though this is going to be a close call as they will only hit 4 times.

Summary

While Screamers have taken a beating with the nerf bat they are still not that bad; you just need to be more selective with them and they are no longer a point and click unit. What Screamers are best used for is tackling armour without transport ability and decking camping units or small weak troop numbers.

Consider Screamers in support of fast moving HQs, Bloodcrushers, Fiends and Daemonettes.

Rating: 7/10

arent screamers jetbikes and thus entitled to a HoW hits. 6 attacking will get 6 hits 3 wounds and 1 dead marine which helps a little.

**mercer**

Very good point.

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labmouse42 wrote:
Pardon the question, but don't plague drones already wound MEQ 75% of the time?
They are STR 4, and have the 4+ poisoned plaguesword.

Provided they are not facing STR 10 weapons, they are extremely tough. At 14 points a wound/attack they are between seekers and khorne dogs in price per wound. They have T5 which makes them tough. What they fall behind is the choppa per point. At 14 points per attack, they are more expensive than khorne dogs, and much more so than seekers (who are 4 points per attack)

Very good point. I didn't even do some mathshammer in my article, I should really do that and also work it out with the rot.

**pretre**

Thanks for the review! Don't forget the SC...

**mercer**

Special characters have now been added. I will warn you, I am not a fan of special characters in general and my opinion maybe biased.

**pretre**

Fateweaver has dropped in points but is also very different and no longer acts as a Daemon army wide survival tool.

Keep in mind his Warlord Trait. His reroll of one or both dice on the WS table allows you to use it offensively rather than just hoping.

**Exergy**

mercer wrote:
Special characters have now been added. I will warn you, I am not a fan of special characters in general and my opinion maybe biased.

update the formating if you can
add some color to seperate sections

**Watchersinthedark**

Did I miss the part about the Heralds taking 4 models for 1 HQ slot? Don't think that got mentioned, which really kinda makes Heralds way more bad ass. Just being able to put a Herald in pretty much each unit you'd be taking is a massive benefit. Makes guys like Changeling way more comparable.

**Barrywise**

Best use I can think for Skarbrand is to deepstrike him in when your CC army gets up close to your opponent, preferably in combo with a bunch of Slaneesh Daemons who would hit first or in conjunction with some allied Warp Talons. Now stop hold on hear me out. If you multi assault 10 Warp Talons(MoS) into two squads of 10 tac Marines you should be able to make up all your points in one turn and then continue to wreck for the rest of the game. Although unfluffy Slaneesh would do a lot better with some Khorne friends.

Also you mentioned not know what the purpose of Fateweaver was, you can do 2 things with him, both involving his staff. the first is being able to reroll on the warp storm with his staff FIRST to reroll a bad die otherwise if both are bad, use his warlord trait to reroll both of them, then if you get a halfway decent roll with his staff you can stop there or use his trait to try and go for the 11 or 12.
-The other use for him would then be to spray out a considerable amount of damage with his psychic powers and buff him to a 2+ with the grimoire, rerolling if you don't succeed

Just my 2 cents
-Barry

**pretre**

You can only reroll on the table once. You can never reroll a reroll.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can only reroll on the table once. You can never reroll a reroll.

**Azreal13**

Not to mention his staff specifically says you can't reroll any other dice in a batch if you choose to reroll one of them with it.

**DAaddict**

They are costly but there are two ways a Demon Prince can be useful.

IF you take a greater Demon, they become heavy choices... That is okay but more costly than soulgrinders...

The one I looked at was giving it the Eternal Blade.

+1 S +D3 to WS, I and A and AP 2 because it is on a Demon Prince... Add to that mark traits and/or psychic abilities and you could have a flexible or close combat monster. Not cheap but it could serve a purpose.

**Siphen**

Thanks for the in-depth summaries!

I'd still like to argue that Seekers deserve a much higher rating. Consider Screamers, which were rated 7/10 (accurate, imo).

Take a look at 6 Screamers vs 12 Seekers:

- The Seekers are slightly cheaper
- Both units have the same number of wounds with the same save (although the screamers can reroll 1's, that doesn't make a huge difference)

- Against MEQ, the Screamers will kill 3 on average. The Seekers will kill 8.
- Against TEQ, the Screamers will kill 2 on average. The Seekers will kill 5.
- Against GEQ, the Screamers will kill 10. The Seekers will kill 16.

So...slightly cheaper with roughly double the damage output. The Seekers also have Fleet, you can take larger squads, they're about as effective against most vehicles (AV 10). They're not quite as fast as the Screamers, but they're still fast enough to charge anything on turn 2 (move 12", run 10-12", move 12", assault 9"+).
They can strike before MEQ, so they'll take even less damage in combat.
They can easily bring down Toughness 8 and 9 MC's.

**Puscifer**

Finally someone agrees with me on Skarbrand.

Personally I think he is better than a Thirster as he buffs the army to insane levels on some troops... Daemonettes in particular.

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I wouldn't ds him though. The buffs are too good to ignore.