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 Rented Tritium wrote:

the weasel king wrote:
Did no one else notice on the pics that the markerlights didn't seem to be limited to increasing bs to a maximum of 5, or that there doesn't seem to be a restriction on using a markerlight for more markerlights? Or did I somehow skip a sentence somewhere?

Yeah, but going over 5 isn't actually good. Each point added over 5 only adds 1/36 chance to hit per shot and if you are already twin-linked, you have to take it at BS5 anyway as you can't reroll twice.

So while it's possible to boost above 5, it will almost never be worth it.

But it's great for those Gets hot! overcharged weapons, no? Also BS5+ is big deal for Blasts.

 Rented Tritium wrote:

the weasel king wrote:
Did no one else notice on the pics that the markerlights didn't seem to be limited to increasing bs to a maximum of 5, or that there doesn't seem to be a restriction on using a markerlight for more markerlights? Or did I somehow skip a sentence somewhere?

Yeah, but going over 5 isn't actually good. Each point added over 5 only adds 1/36 chance to hit per shot and if you are already twin-linked, you have to take it at BS5 anyway as you can't reroll twice.

So while it's possible to boost above 5, it will almost never be worth it.

Boosting the riptide to bs6 allows him to re roll gets hot with his nova charge weapons and the ion overcharge.

Lovepug13 wrote:
They are a hq option with bs5 has a marker light, 3 wounds, 60 points, volley fire which means if you are stationary you can fire an additional shot with rifles and carbines. Seems good but is a hq slot which is a downside imo

What kind of gear options he has?

 Crimson wrote:

Lovepug13 wrote:
They are a hq option with bs5 has a marker light, 3 wounds, 60 points, volley fire which means if you are stationary you can fire an additional shot with rifles and carbines. Seems good but is a hq slot which is a downside imo

What kind of gear options he has?

He can take 2 drones from the drone list.

^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Keep in mind that when the ethereal dies, the whole army doesn't have to make a moral check anymore with chances to flee. Instead, the opponent gets a VP if VPs are used. So it got better, even when competition in the HQ slot is hard.

BTW here the upcoming daft punk bundle:
(this Apocalypse formation gets favored enemy Justin Bieber )
Lead DJ


DJ assistants


Lead Vocals:


Background Vocals:


Lead Guitar


Drums


Keyboards

Lovepug13 wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^^^^

No fancy weapons? Only pulse carbine or rifle, right? And is that overtly complex armour just for show?

 Crimson wrote:

Lovepug13 wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^^^^

No fancy weapons? Only pulse carbine or rifle, right? And is that overtly complex armour just for show?

He's got the 4+ save for that fancy armour, so no better than regular FWs. He's got a pulse rifle with a markerlight, allows his squad to fire 1 more shot if it remains still... That's 60 pts
(He doesn't get the option to swap his rifle for a carbine) He's also got the "split fire" USR which would allow him, if you pass a ld check, to shoot another target instead, maybe to get a missile off on a vehicle?

 B0B MaRlEy wrote:

He's got the 4+ save for that fancy armour, so no better than regular FWs. He's got a pulse rifle with a markerlight, allows his squad to fire 1 more shot if it remains still... That's 60 pts
(He doesn't get the option to swap his rifle for a carbine) He's also got the "split fire" USR which would allow him, if you pass a ld check, to shoot another target instead, maybe to get a missile off on a vehicle?

Ah, OK. Somehow I was expecting more options... Characters usually get to at least choose from few different weapons. Oh well, It's still a nice addition.

To those who bemoan the loss of targeting arrays -

Old suit with TA/plasma/missiles was 67 pts, could only fire 1 weapon system and hit 67% of the time.

New suit with twin linked plasma/regular missiles (or vice versa) is 57 points, hits 75% of the time with the twin linked system PLUS 50% of the time with the auxiliary gun.

How is that worse? It's a buff across the board - even vehicle SMS are twin linked now. Mobility of skimmers aside, suits are definitely more efficient now.

Until I get my codex tomorrow night, I can't say for sure but these are the first impressions that I got.

A lot of things that I have advocated for the Tau made it into the new codex. (Yay!) Just in ways that are overly conservative(read to much balancing that may keep the Tau mediocre.

Seriously, some really good things in this dex and some really?? WTF were they thinking ones too.


The Good:
Markerlights became better(Looks like the limit of the BS to only 5 improvement is gone.) They streamlined the system a little but maybe not enough.

Drones- Increase in variety and uses. Missile Drones(YES!), Marker Drone price drop, Looks like Toughness is now a flat 4 for most drones. Drones gain a Turbo-boost type ability???(Haven't seen confirmation on this one), Orphaned drones are no longer auto destroyed, Etc., Etc....
Only thing that would have made me happier would be if they had made more drone units so that we could run a drone army.

SC's are useful in a synergistic way rather than being stand alone superheroes. Only complaint could be that they seem to push the Tau into being a xenos version of IG.

Fire Warriors are perfect at 9 points WITH photons, 11 points with EMP's

EMP's now straight Haywire

Battlesuits- Price drop, cheap Twin-linked Plasma and new/better options to make them more survivable

Fusion blaster now 18"

Supporting Fire rule


The Bad
No improvement in innate shooting ability with experience. Never wanted BS4 FW's but battlesuits and non-fast vehicles should have been BS 4.

Over reliance on one piece of wargear. Looking at you Markerlights. Where the lists may be more varied, it will still be fire markerlight and then focus fire on the marked target. In old book you had ability to have better BS without the markerlight system and as such you could build lists that played using different synergies. Seems like Markerlights will be a must take in this 'dex. This will make the Tau predictable and easy to neutralize. Tau without markers just seem like they will not be effective.

S9+ weapon scarcity. Not a complaint about the B-sides but about a shooting based army that doesn't get any outside of Heavy support. Wouldn't be bad if we had S8 Lance or rending weapons but I feel that this move may excessively limit viable build options.

Hammerhead and D-fish losing Fire as if Fast hurts. Yes, Markers can now compensate for this but this again just forces a predictable over reliance on one mechanic.

D-fish not getting a price reduction. Yes, their weapons got marginally better but I feel that they lost too much in wargear options. Will have to see if Missle drones can be bought for them and whether that will make them viable.

No new transport option, If any army needs a well armed/shooty transport, it is the Tau...yet no luck. This combined with no heavy weapons in troops will force the Tau into a predictable build strategy
(The last three Make it seem that Mech-Tau mayt not be viable.)

Kroot- Nerfed stats and still only stealth in Woods??WTF? There was no need to nerf the kroot stats just because the can buy Sniper Rounds. The stealth only in the wood thing is idiotic,(Yeah, I am an intelligent species that are stealthy hunters and highly adaptable, but I suddenly forget to walk quietly and to use shadows just because I am in a field/city/ruins. Just chalk it up GW needlessly limiting options for non-Imperial factions



& The Meh
Targeting arrays going away. wouldn't even miss them if GW had even considered that ability improves over time(Vets get better BS)

Pathfinders- Armour reduction was expected and fits the look of the model. Pathfinders not getting stealth sucks. Not having to take transport is good.
The Tau new over-reliance upon markerlights will make them high priority targets that are a little too squishy.

Vespids, Yes they are improved but it sounds like not enough. As full members of the Tau empire, they should have access to Tau wargear.(Grenades anyone?)

XV104- Very meh, It does provide another elite option, question is will it be worth it for the points. Many Tau players run xv8 crisis teams of 92-145pts. Buying a 165pt base that will probably be 200+ fielded for a unit with less shots just sounds very *meh*

Fighter and Bomber- Both more expensive than a Vendetta with lower av, weaker guns, no transport ability and limited to 3 fliers per FOC(Unless bomber is a HS choice). Yes they will be useful, just not as useful as an Imperial ally's fliers will be.

Cadre Fireblade- Sacrifice mobility to get extra pulse weapon shot for squad. As is, This guy and our now slower vehicles just do not fit in a game where they spent the past six years making everything faster and mobile.


To sum up
Yes there is more than what I typed but these were the pertinent things. As to how we Tau players adapt????

Shadowsun in a Drone Squadron of Marker Drones would be a solid start or maybe with a stealth fusion team and some marker drones.

2Crisis Teams of Plas Fusion will almost be a must. Weapon ranges now compliment and we can now get missiles elsewhere. We will need those fusion guns on the board.

Third Elite???Pick any of the 3.

4 x 8-9 man teams of EMP Fire warriors at 11pts ea, FTW. In 5th ed I popped about as many LR's and Monoliths with EMP grenades as with railguns. In this edition, assaulting vehicles is so easy that even Tau can do it. Just remember to find a way to block all of the access points that won't put all of your scoring units at risk if the vehicle explodes.

Maybe a Kroot sniper squad in a Bastion? Or, maybe stretch an ADL through some woods?

1 Gun/Marker drone squad for shadowsun

Pick 2 of either Flier or 2 PF squads


Take one Hammerhead with the Ace in it

Take either 2 skyrays , 2 IonHeads or 2 teams of 2 Broadsides. Unless the Bomber is a HS and then it would be an option also.



This is what the codex suggests to me so far trying to play the Tau.

Thing is, what the codex seems to suggest overall is that the Tau were not designed to be played as an army unto themselves but rather were designed to have to take allies or to provide units for other armies.

Just orderd the limited edition codex before they run out.

Can someone explain the rumor that markerlights can boost overwatch? I'm not seeing how this is possible. You can't have a unit fire the overwatched marker, then use the token to boost the rest of the unit, as the markerlight rules explicitly say a unit cannot benefit from its own lights. Also, unused tokens get removed at the end of the shooting phase, so you can't use spares from there either.

Maybe I missed something?

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Can someone explain the rumor that markerlights can boost overwatch? I'm not seeing how this is possible. You can't have a unit fire the overwatched marker, then use the token to boost the rest of the unit, as the markerlight rules explicitly say a unit cannot benefit from its own lights. Also, unused tokens get removed at the end of the shooting phase, so you can't use spares from there either.

Maybe I missed something?

Nope, I don't think they can.

The tau do apparently get a rule called supporting fire, which allows squads in a certain radius to make overwatch shots as well, and there is a piece of gear that resolves overwatch at BS2

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Can someone explain the rumor that markerlights can boost overwatch? I'm not seeing how this is possible. You can't have a unit fire the overwatched marker, then use the token to boost the rest of the unit, as the markerlight rules explicitly say a unit cannot benefit from its own lights. Also, unused tokens get removed at the end of the shooting phase, so you can't use spares from there either.

Maybe I missed something?

Using the supporting fire rule, a unit with MLs can snap fire at a charging unit if they are the target or near the target. Then other supporting fire units (those within 6") can burn any ML hits and use them to boost their over watch.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Can someone explain the rumor that markerlights can boost overwatch? I'm not seeing how this is possible. You can't have a unit fire the overwatched marker, then use the token to boost the rest of the unit, as the markerlight rules explicitly say a unit cannot benefit from its own lights. Also, unused tokens get removed at the end of the shooting phase, so you can't use spares from there either.

Maybe I missed something?

Using the supporting fire rule, a unit with MLs can snap fire at a charging unit if they are the target or near the target. Then other supporting fire units (those within 6") can burn any ML hits and use them to boost their over watch.

Huh, that makes sense. A bit of a risky tactic though. Those MLs are hitting on 6s after all.

Hold on, there's a thought. Can markerlights improve the chances of more markerlights hitting?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Huh, that makes sense. A bit of a risky tactic though. Those MLs are hitting on 6s after all.

Hold on, there's a thought. Can markerlights improve the chances of more markerlights hitting?

Apparently yes. At least I haven't seen anything to contrary.

Anyone else thinking of using a riptide for their AA needs? Heavy burst cannon, TW fusion blaster, skyfire and interceptor? ^^

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Old suit with TA/plasma/missiles was 67 pts, could only fire 1 weapon system and hit 67% of the time.

Except nobody ever took that setup. It was either MP/PR/MT or MP/PR/TA on a suit with HWMT. So 77 points for shooting both weapons with a 67% chance to hit. Now you save 20 points, but you have one weapon at 75% and one at 50%. In theory that's not a bad trade, but it makes markerlight use really inefficient since the TL gun isn't getting much benefit if you use markerlights to boost the single gun.

How is that worse?

Besides the math reasons it's worse for fluff as well. We're the dedicated shoot-only army with advanced technology and only a handful of HQ models can shoot better than a basic guardsman. This is incredibly stupid, and it's really frustrating that now you can't even compensate for it with TAs on your crisis suits and vehicles.

 Peregrine wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Old suit with TA/plasma/missiles was 67 pts, could only fire 1 weapon system and hit 67% of the time.

Except nobody ever took that setup. It was either MP/PR/MT or MP/PR/TA on a suit with HWMT. So 77 points for shooting both weapons with a 67% chance to hit. Now you save 20 points, but you have one weapon at 75% and one at 50%. In theory that's not a bad trade, but it makes markerlight use really inefficient since the TL gun isn't getting much benefit if you use markerlights to boost the single gun.

How is that worse?

Besides the math reasons it's worse for fluff as well. We're the dedicated shoot-only army with advanced technology and only a handful of HQ models can shoot better than a basic guardsman. This is incredibly stupid, and it's really frustrating that now you can't even compensate for it with TAs on your crisis suits and vehicles.

Let me be frank - I think 'vre ranked tau should be bs4 due to their 8+ years of military service and familiarity with their weapon systems. It makes excellent sense from a fluff standpoint.

We didn't get that, however, unless the codex is RIFE with typos.

So I still love my tau and I do like the direction the codex seems to take *overall*. Now is the time to field it for a few months and dig out the combos and gold nuggets that separate a mediocre player from a fantastic one.

 Akaraut wrote:
Anyone else thinking of using a riptide for their AA needs? Heavy burst cannon, TW fusion blaster, skyfire and interceptor? ^^

What's the range on the heavy burst cannon? To have a reasonable 'interceptor bubble' you'd want 24" atleast but preferably 36" or more. If the interceptor rule costs only 5 points for the Riptide it's a no brainer though even if you'd almost never use it.

 Therion wrote:

 Akaraut wrote:
Anyone else thinking of using a riptide for their AA needs? Heavy burst cannon, TW fusion blaster, skyfire and interceptor? ^^

What's the range on the heavy burst cannon? To have a reasonable 'interceptor bubble' you'd want 24" atleast but preferably 36" or more. If the interceptor rule costs only 5 points for the Riptide it's a no brainer even if you'd almost never use it.

Unless it takes up a hardpoint that could be used for something else... dunno what yet though.

One thing to remember is that you can't power the Nova reactor during the enemy's turn for the upgraded Heavy Burst Cannon profile, and if you already shot during the enemy's turn you won't fire on your own turn so you'd be down to taking the 3+ invulnerable save I guess.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Can someone explain the rumor that markerlights can boost overwatch? I'm not seeing how this is possible. You can't have a unit fire the overwatched marker, then use the token to boost the rest of the unit, as the markerlight rules explicitly say a unit cannot benefit from its own lights. Also, unused tokens get removed at the end of the shooting phase, so you can't use spares from there either.

Maybe I missed something?

Using the supporting fire rule, a unit with MLs can snap fire at a charging unit if they are the target or near the target. Then other supporting fire units (those within 6") can burn any ML hits and use them to boost their over watch.

I had though the same initially, but the order in which you apply modifiers screws it up as it's multiply/divide, then add/subtract, then set modifiers. Let's say you have two markerlights on a unit. You have to first add the markerlights, raising the BS from 3 to 5, then you apply the snap shot rule which is a set modifier. This ignores your +2 from the markerlights and sets the BS at 1.

An interceptor/skyfire riptide would have no access to FNP and forgo shooting with any weapons he used to intercept with in a previous phase. Sometimes countering the alpha strike is worth it if it saves some suits or pathfinders from a heldrakes bale flamer. Sometimes it isn't but its nice to have the option.

Personally i would use the ion weapon for it'd higher strength and blast functionality.

Heavy Burst Cannon is 36".

 Peregrine wrote:

Besides the math reasons it's worse for fluff as well. We're the dedicated shoot-only army with advanced technology and only a handful of HQ models can shoot better than a basic guardsman. This is incredibly stupid, and it's really frustrating that now you can't even compensate for it with TAs on your crisis suits and vehicles.

Yeah, besides, BS progression is really weird. Apparently an experienced Shas'vre with most modern Battlesuit in use still can't shoot higher than BS3, but suddenly HQ's have it jump to BS5?? At least old system had logical progression - up until Shas'vre you were BS3, Shas'El BS4, Shas'O BS5. Talking about that, why there is now only one generic Battlesuit commander?

It's obvious that the basic idea of the new Codex is to make you use Markerlights, since you can't hit anything without them, nor move & shoot with your vehicles. But this just makes the Tau look like one-trick pony who can't do anything without their Magic Lazerpens pointing stuff out to them.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Can someone explain the rumor that markerlights can boost overwatch? I'm not seeing how this is possible. You can't have a unit fire the overwatched marker, then use the token to boost the rest of the unit, as the markerlight rules explicitly say a unit cannot benefit from its own lights. Also, unused tokens get removed at the end of the shooting phase, so you can't use spares from there either.

Maybe I missed something?

Using the supporting fire rule, a unit with MLs can snap fire at a charging unit if they are the target or near the target. Then other supporting fire units (those within 6") can burn any ML hits and use them to boost their over watch.

I had though the same initially, but the order in which you apply modifiers screws it up as it's multiply/divide, then add/subtract, then set modifiers. Let's say you have two markerlights on a unit. You have to first add the markerlights, raising the BS from 3 to 5, then you apply the snap shot rule which is a set modifier. This ignores your +2 from the markerlights and sets the BS at 1.

Markerlight entry specifically mentions raising BS for both over watch and snap fire purposes. I know, shocking they actually explained how a rule contradicts the BRB without waiting 2 months for a FAQ.

Lovepug13 wrote:
Carried by etherals, +2 strength ap4 melee

Not AP4, AP-.

The paired blades are AP4.

And now I want to do a double detachment so I can have the TMNT as ethereals.


Seriously though, I have Aun'shi, but I will probably use him as a normal ethereal. Unless challenges get to be a real issue.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Can someone explain the rumor that markerlights can boost overwatch? I'm not seeing how this is possible. You can't have a unit fire the overwatched marker, then use the token to boost the rest of the unit, as the markerlight rules explicitly say a unit cannot benefit from its own lights. Also, unused tokens get removed at the end of the shooting phase, so you can't use spares from there either.

Maybe I missed something?

Using the supporting fire rule, a unit with MLs can snap fire at a charging unit if they are the target or near the target. Then other supporting fire units (those within 6") can burn any ML hits and use them to boost their over watch.

I had though the same initially, but the order in which you apply modifiers screws it up as it's multiply/divide, then add/subtract, then set modifiers. Let's say you have two markerlights on a unit. You have to first add the markerlights, raising the BS from 3 to 5, then you apply the snap shot rule which is a set modifier. This ignores your +2 from the markerlights and sets the BS at 1.

Markerlight entry specifically mentions raising BS for both over watch and snap fire purposes. I know, shocking they actually explained how a rule contradicts the BRB without waiting 2 months for a FAQ.

Again, I do not see this in any of the Spanish or English scans. The "Target Acquired" Special rules for markerlights don't mention overwatch or snapfire at all.

EDIT: OK nevermind, found it.