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Not sure if this has been discussed before but would a herald be able to buff the useless Mutilators/Warptalons/Possessed or even buff the heldrake with the grimoire of true names.

If paid with MoT you are alooking at 2++ warp talons/possessed, or 3++ MoN mutilators (because who would let the T5 pass?), if there are many interceptors on the table you can give the heldrake a 3++ as well just to make sure he burns as much as he can.

A herald of tzeentch with divination primaris and an exalted reward wouldn't cost much and would make a lot more durable any of the units mentioned above, but could the 2++ or 3++ be enough to field them?

Also, if Deep striking a herald of tzeentch with a unit of horrors the instrument of chaos would automatically get the Warptalons/Mutilators in (sadly they aren't daemons of tzeentch so no beenfit for the banner to stop the scatter)

Ha wow, Warptalons suddenly might useful, especially if combined with chaos instrument and the reduced scatter.

Sure seems like that is valid. Any friendly or enemy model with the Daemon special rule within 24". This includes Possessed, Mutilators, Obliterators, CSM Demon Princes, Warp Talons, Heldrakes, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, and Defilers.

I think that may actually have been planned. Most of the demons from CSM are underpowered, but taking buffs from Demons makes some of them WTF strong. Helldrake excluded (you would have a hard time getting it consistently near the book wielder) that seems pretty nice synergy. Cav Herald+ Warp Talons may actually be useful now.

ers126 wrote:
Sure seems like that is valid. Any friendly or enemy model with the Daemon special rule within 24". This includes Possessed, Mutilators, Obliterators, CSM Demon Princes, Warp Talons, Heldrakes, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, and Defilers.

and 4 of those can have MoT, improving their save further


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zephoid wrote:
I think that may actually have been planned. Most of the demons from CSM are underpowered, but taking buffs from Demons makes some of them WTF strong. Helldrake excluded (you would have a hard time getting it consistently near the book wielder) that seems pretty nice synergy. Cav Herald+ Warp Talons may actually be useful now.

yes only oblits are even ok.

That's pretty nutty if it's valid, opens up a whole lot of options for both books.

Also, if you go CSM as your primary, you don't roll on the crazy warp-table correct?

 Lord Yayula wrote:

A herald of tzeentch with divination primaris and an exalted reward wouldn't cost much and would make a lot more durable any of the units mentioned above, but could the 2++ or 3++ be enough to field them?

So a combo of 400+ points what has "only" a 66% chance to actually succeed... And if it does, it buffs the durability of a unit that sucks in its role most of the time (you need 9 Warp Talons to kill a single Tactical Squad for crying out loud), so it can have an extra turn of miserable existence.

Pfffffff.... Just take your Heldrakes already and use the allies selection to bring a Vendetta. A million times better buy.

Also, bringing Tzeentch for Codex: Nurgle? Shame on you !

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:

A herald of tzeentch with divination primaris and an exalted reward wouldn't cost much and would make a lot more durable any of the units mentioned above, but could the 2++ or 3++ be enough to field them?

So a combo of 400+ points what has "only" a 66% chance to actually succeed... And if it does, it buffs the durability of a unit that sucks in its role most of the time (you need 9 Warp Talons to kill a single Tactical Squad for crying out loud), so it can have an extra turn of miserable existence.

Pfffffff.... Just take your Heldrakes already and use the allies selection to bring a Vendetta. A million times better buy.

Also, bringing Tzeentch for Codex: Nurgle? Shame on you !

I think going the other way is the idea. Take a unit of possessed, oblits and warp talons in a Daemon primary army. The daemon's problem is that they are vulnerable to small arms fire, which is the same thing that daemonic CSM units have problems with so you are overloading your enemy with things that require small arms fire to kill but that laugh off high strength low AP attacks.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:

A herald of tzeentch with divination primaris and an exalted reward wouldn't cost much and would make a lot more durable any of the units mentioned above, but could the 2++ or 3++ be enough to field them?

So a combo of 400+ points what has "only" a 66% chance to actually succeed... And if it does, it buffs the durability of a unit that sucks in its role most of the time (you need 9 Warp Talons to kill a single Tactical Squad for crying out loud), so it can have an extra turn of miserable existence.

Pfffffff.... Just take your Heldrakes already and use the allies selection to bring a Vendetta. A million times better buy.

Also, bringing Tzeentch for Codex: Nurgle? Shame on you !

I know they are all pretty bad units on their own, and that it has a chance of 2/6 attached of not working but that is kinda the point, to discuss if it might be able to make them viable. Oh and MoN is a must in both oblies and mutilators it is simply not an option.

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:

A herald of tzeentch with divination primaris and an exalted reward wouldn't cost much and would make a lot more durable any of the units mentioned above, but could the 2++ or 3++ be enough to field them?

So a combo of 400+ points what has "only" a 66% chance to actually succeed... And if it does, it buffs the durability of a unit that sucks in its role most of the time (you need 9 Warp Talons to kill a single Tactical Squad for crying out loud), so it can have an extra turn of miserable existence.

Pfffffff.... Just take your Heldrakes already and use the allies selection to bring a Vendetta. A million times better buy.

Also, bringing Tzeentch for Codex: Nurgle? Shame on you !

I know they are all pretty bad units on their own, and that it has a chance of 2/6 attached of not working but that is kinda the point, to discuss if it might be able to make them viable. Oh and MoN is a must in both oblies and mutilators it is simply not an option.

even with a 3++ or 2++ mutialtors suck. Possessed on the other hand become pretty good with the additional save.

Whats bad about people thinking how to liven up this bland codex named CSM? Seriously, what the? Making pathetic units into usable units is a good deed in itself.

Now rather than dismissing progressive ideas, lets think about actual tactics with grimoire and divination. I have seen what it does on daemons, on their chariots and troops (makes expensive weapons ineffective), I would consider making my defiler 3++ IWND 4 HP, or my Tzeetch obliterators 2+ 2++... And I don't looks at fighting units as a somekind of tax, I prefer to look at them as a fighting force.

I think the only problem with going 2+ 2++ on Oblits is that a lot of people (myself included) use small arms to take them out anyways, so the 1's are going to hurt just as much. The T5 makes them much more resilient to this.

Is there a way to use DoN stuff to buff Oblits with MoN?

 More Dakka wrote:
I think the only problem with going 2+ 2++ on Oblits is that a lot of people (myself included) use small arms to take them out anyways, so the 1's are going to hurt just as much. The T5 makes them much more resilient to this.

Is there a way to use DoN stuff to buff Oblits with MoN?

it works, but it makes them 2+/3++ T5.

I think possessed and warptalons gain a lot more out of a 2++ than oblits or mutes.

I'll have to re-read both dexes but I like the idea of it, gotta find some use for the 2 DV boxes I bought, might turn the Chosen into either/or Warp Talons or Possessed.

A good plan would be to go Daemon primary, take a Herald with True Names, take fatewevaer (he gives you a reroll once per turn).

Then take a huge blob of something like possesed with MoT.

Then take Huron to infiltrate them.

What about any of the dinobots? I'm thinking of a Maulerfiend. 12 AV with a 3++.

 L0rdF1end wrote:
A good plan would be to go Daemon primary, take a Herald with True Names, take fatewevaer (he gives you a reroll once per turn).

Then take a huge blob of something like possesed with MoT.

Then take Huron to infiltrate them.

Huron can only infiltrate units with his warlord trait, but if he is allied in then he can't be your warlord. You would have to go with CSM primary.

Best I can think of is taking possesed or talons with herald of nurgle to give FnP maybe with a Herald of Tzneetch in a chariot giving out some cover saves, or you could swap the HoN for a MoK to give them hatred then they'd each be wrecking 2 marines each turn or just go with possesed and give them hatred

Edit: forgot about shrouded from HoN, factor that in too with divination

Remember that the Heralds can't join units without Daemonic Instability and vice-versa, so combos dependent on joining units from the other codex won't work. Radius or other effects which affect friendly units with the Daemon rule are fair game, though.

Oh that would be correct, my bad I totally forgot about that

No point in FNP.

You just want a huge unit with multiwound which has the daemon dpecial rule.
Fate weaver is quite privitol to the list for the reroll.
He's also important to reroll Warp Storm as that table can be quite horrid at times.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Remember that the Heralds can't join units without Daemonic Instability and vice-versa, so combos dependent on joining units from the other codex won't work. Radius or other effects which affect friendly units with the Daemon rule are fair game, though.

Instability, once again, only states that units without it cannon join units with it. It does NOT say the reverse.

Fair point, but Daemonic Alignment, on the same page, states that "Daemons can only join units that are composed entirely of Daemons of the same alignment of themselves (i.e. a Herald of Slaanesh may not join a unit of Plaguebearers)."

Since the only unit with a Daemonic Alignment in the CSM codex is the Daemon Prince, and since the IC rules forbid joining a unit that's always comprised of one model, there are no units in the CSM codex that any Herald is eligible to join.

What if the DP joins a unit. Could you then have a herald join the DP who's leading that unit & get the buff?

 RedAngel wrote:
What if the DP joins a unit. Could you then have a herald join the DP who's leading that unit & get the buff?

DPs cannot join units

The DP can't join a unit because he isn't an IC.

Ahhh, ty. I don't have the demon codex, as I'm not a demon player. I do play against them though. Ill be watching the FAQs all the same, as I'm sure we all wil lbe.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Fair point, but Daemonic Alignment, on the same page, states that "Daemons can only join units that are composed entirely of Daemons of the same alignment of themselves (i.e. a Herald of Slaanesh may not join a unit of Plaguebearers)."

Since the only unit with a Daemonic Alignment in the CSM codex is the Daemon Prince, and since the IC rules forbid joining a unit that's always comprised of one model, there are no units in the CSM codex that any Herald is eligible to join.

Dumb series of questions as I have been curious about this idea.

1. Is it safe to assume that any unit that has the daemon rule is considered a daemon?
2. Is there a standard definition or rule for determining alignment? Wouldn't the mark of a god constitute them being aligned to that given god?

Daemonic Alignment (“Daemon of [Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch, Slaanesh]”) is a special rule in the CSM and Daemons codices. It covers four different special rules which each convey a specific list of benefits to models which have it. These are different benefits to having the Marks of the different gods. Marks of the Gods and Daemonic Alignment are (nowadays) two different concepts, each covering four different special rules.

Note that to allow the CSM Daemon Prince to take the Axe of Blind Fury (which as printed in the codex requires you to have the Mark of Khorne), they didn’t do a FAQ saying “Daemon of Khorne counts as Mark of Khorne”, equating the two. They instead made an errata to the Axe, saying you can either have the Mark OR be a Daemon of Khorne to take it. This reinforces the conclusion that GW does indeed mean the two to be distinct and different things.