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rigeld2 wrote:
So the unit is not bound by the result of the test?

Correct, since the IC tests separately.

rigeld2 wrote:

That's not what NFW says. In 5th it said that because the IC was a separate unit while in combat. In 6th they are always the same unit.

Since they're the same unit and "the unit" is bound by the result...

The unit is bound by the same result when there isn't an exception to that rule. Having an IC in the squad is an explicit exception to that rule.

It's not an explicit exception to the last sentence of NFWs.
They explicitly test separately - but there isn't anything exempting them from where "unit" is mentioned.

rigeld2 wrote:
So the unit is not bound by the result of the test?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Neorealist wrote:

rigeld2 512876 5371522 wrote:Except then you're saying that the unit is not bound to the first test to activate - and yet the NFW rules require that.

That is correct, but only applies to the models with the BoP rule. Any non-BoP psyker casting their own powers do not count for the purposes of wether or not a psyker 'with' the BoP rule has manifested a power this turn or not.

That's not what NFW says. In 5th it said that because the IC was a separate unit while in combat. In 6th they are always the same unit.

Since they're the same unit and "the unit" is bound by the result...

The IC was not a separate unit while in combat in 5th. He was treated as one specifically for the purposes of allocating and resolving attacks only. Not for any other purpose.

And when do NFWs get activated? (Hint - while resolving attacks).

Sure, that's fine; just wanted to be clear about the nature of the IC relationship to the unit in HtH.

Sure - but for the purposes of this argument my statement was correct.

In 5th at the time of activating NFWs he was a separate unit. So the IC must activate separately.
In 6th that is not true. If the IC has a hammer and the unit wounds before he does, he is bound by their roll.

"Any further wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase will be bound by the result of that Psychic test."

The "that" in the sentence is referring to the earlier Psychic test that the unit has taken. You know, the one where you roll one for the IC and one for the Unit...

Which made sense in 5th. In 6th the IC is explicitly part of the unit.
Which means that "Any further wounds caused by (the IC's) NFWs in that phase will be bound by the result of (the squad's) psychic test."

Asserting that isn't a valid interpretation means you're asserting that the IC is not a normal member of the squad. Which of course is breaking the IC rules.

Wow! Some of you guys are like way off on how Nemesis force weapon activation works.

Per pg. 54 of the GK Codex: " ... Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to 'activate' all of its force weapons (although independent charaters must still roll seperately). If the test is passed, all wounds that phase inflict instant death. If a unit is striking at different initiative orders, take the Psychic test to 'activate' the force weapons immediately after the first unsaved wounds are caused ..."

Example: one 10-man squad of GKT with mixed NFW (Halbards, Swords, Hammers), with an attached GM with a Halberd.

Initiative 10: GM casts Hammerhand, suceeds, all models in the unit gain +1 Str.
Initiative 9-8
Initivative 7: GM attacks, hits, scores a wound, no save, wound is assigned. All GK in the unit roll for activation. GM succeeds, GKT roll and succeed. All NFW active.
Intiative 6: GKT with Halberds attack, etc.
Initiative 5
Initiative 4: GK with Swords attack, etc.
Initiative 3-2
Initiative 1: GKT with Hammers attack, etc.

And that's it. If the GKT had a Banner, both of the rolls to activate would have been bypassed as automatic successes.

SJ

rigeld2 wrote:
It's not an explicit exception to the last sentence of NFWs.
They explicitly test separately - but there isn't anything exempting them from where "unit" is mentioned.

The wouldn't need to be exempted from it, they have their own test to pass or fail. In the context of the NSF rules, 'the unit' in the latter part of the rule is referring whichever models have passed their psychic test(s) as defined by the first part of it.

rigeld2 wrote:

Elric Greywolf wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Because in 6th if you take that at face value and the IC rolls first - if he fails, the squad cannot even test because he's part of the unit, and the rest of the unit is "bound by the result of that Psychic test."

This is not how Force weapons work. Force USR, p37:
"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon...." So, each Psyker must pass his own test to activate the Force weapon. An IC is a Psyker, and a unit of GK is one Psyker (per the Brotherhood USR). There are two Psykers, therefore, each of which must pass its own test to use the NFW. Neither is bound by the other's result.

Page 54 C:GK disagrees. The unit is bound by the result, pass or fail. Is the IC a member of the unit?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Per pg. 54 of the GK Codex: " ... Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to 'activate' all of its force weapons (although independent charaters must still roll seperately)."

Here's two different readings of the GK codex. One of them is right. (It's the one that agrees with me.)

rigeld2 wrote:
Which made sense in 5th. In 6th the IC is explicitly part of the unit.
Which means that "Any further wounds caused by (the IC's) NFWs in that phase will be bound by the result of (the squad's) psychic test."

Asserting that isn't a valid interpretation means you're asserting that the IC is not a normal member of the squad. Which of course is breaking the IC rules.

No, really, the rule says that:

"Any further wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase will be bound by the result of that Psychic test."

The bolded that refers to the psychic test that we are told is different from the unit's/IC's. Yes, it's different than how the BRB tells us to do it, but in case of conflict Codex>BRB in 6th edition. If it says to test once for the IC and once for the squad and the sentences are referring to the Psychic test then it stands to reason that the result could be different for the two, since they're not bound by the same test!

So the IC isn't a member of the unit?

It states the UNIT is bound by the result of that test. Who takes the test isn't important, the whole unit is bound by it. In 5th this excluded the ic, in 6th it includes it.

You're ignoring the Force USR,* the Brotherhood of Psykers USR,** and the explicit wording in the GK codex.*** No one is saying the IC isn't a member of the unit. But the rules are carefully worded to allow the IC to be a member of the unit AND pass his own test.

*each individual Psyker must pass his own test
**the GK unit (sans IC) is a single Psyker
***ICs must pass their own Force activation test


Here's an example of an IC being a member and not a member of a unit:
When I count my units for keeping in reserve, up to 50% can stay off the table. If my IC is part of a unit, does that count as only 1 for reserve counting? No, the rules explicitly state that an IC counts by himself, and the unit he might be attached to also counts as 1. He is part of the unit, though, deployed with them and only needing one reserve roll.

Damn you guys. Now I'm confused.

I am leaning towards agreeing with rigeld and Nos, simply because now in 6th ICs are members of the unit 100%

RAW anyway, GW would probably FAQ it the other way.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So the IC isn't a member of the unit?

It states the UNIT is bound by the result of that test. Who takes the test isn't important, the whole unit is bound by it. In 5th this excluded the ic, in 6th it includes it.

I'd argue that the "unit" in that sentence is referring to the unit that took the psychic test.

Since the "Psychic test" obviously refers to the one we were told to take earlier in the rule, the "unit" arguably also refers to the "unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule" that was mentioned in the same sentence, the sentence that explicitly tells us to roll a separate test for Independent Characters. In this case, the Independent Character isn't part of the unit, as "unit" in this rule refers to the Grey Knight unit with Brotherhood of Psykers special rule that is being discussed.

Except there is, now, just a single unit. You cannot split into IC and non-IC, you have no permission to do so in the 6th edition rules, unlike in the 5th edition rules

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except there is, now, just a single unit. You cannot split into IC and non-IC, you have no permission to do so in the 6th edition rules, unlike in the 5th edition rules

You're correct that there's no such permission in the BRB, but that's why the Codex tells us to test separately for the IC. If you're not testing twice you're not following the rule for Nemesis Force Weapons.

There's no way to argue this question.

GK Codex 54: "Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to 'activate' all of its force weapons (although independent charaters must still roll separately)."

Any IC that can join the GK unit--Inquisitor, Libby, Techmarine, Grand Master, Brother Captain--does not have the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule, either from the Codex or the BRB. Neither of these rules is shared with joined ICs (like some USRs are). And the quoted text points out, as clearly as is possible with human communication, that an IC MUST pass his own Force test.

It might work differently for other other powers. But, we're not talking about HH, or Warp Quake, or Prescience, or any other psychic power that could conceivably be cast on the unit. We're talking about this one particular power, which is incontrovertibly phrased in C:GK. Even if there is a possible conflict with the BRB regarding unit composition, codex overrides BRB. Read above quotation again.

Elric - again, you have missed the issue

The IC is bound by the result of the test made, as it states the IC is a normal member of the unit and the *unit* is bound by the result of the test.

If the unit fails, the IC can test separately all he wants - he is still bound by the result that the unit, which includes him, has failed.

Perhaps I have missed YOUR issue, but I haven't missed the issue.

The context of the rule (and I know you like context) is a unit with the Brotherhood of Psykers rule. The IC does not have this rule, and thus is not "part of the unit" for psychic checks. BoP does not get shared with ICs.

If he is part of the unit, then Perils from the unit's HH could go on an IC--which is certainly not the case.

You need to consider the BoP rule. And then you need to make an accounting of the quoted text regarding the explicit exception given for ICs.

"For all rules purposes" an IC is a member of the unit. This is a rules purpose.

But the C:GK's specific instruction in this instance overrules the BRB's general statement.
How do you deal with the explicit instruction in the C:GK? Because, as of now, you seem to be ignoring it.

I am not ignoring it, as I have shown.

The IC is bound by the result of the units test, as the parenthetical note is a reminder of 5th edition rules. It has no place as a reminder in 6th, as an IC is not a separate unit in combat when this rule would activate.

It is a member of the unit for ALL rules purposes. The GK rule ddoes not override this.

You believe that the word "unit" refers to the unit on the table, with whatever composition it happens to have at the time.
This would invalidate the wording of the Force USR, which states that each individual Psyker must take his own test. (A unit with BoP is "one" Psyker; a unit of IC BA Librarians would still have to take individual tests.)

I believe that, taken in context of the sentence (which explicitly makes joined ICs rely on their own tests) the word "unit" refers to the force org unit with the BoP rule.
This still allows for the Force USR to work as stated.

Since there is nothing in the FAQ about this issue, nor has there ever been, I can't agree that the parenthetical note only applied in 5th. If it should have been taken out, there would be an errata. There is not.

"should have" and "GW rules" really dont mix.

The point behind the rule for Nemesis force weapons is that every model in the unit rolls to activate at exact same timeupon the first unsaved wound being dealt. It doesn't matter how the unit is composed. It could have a GM, Libby, 3 Techmarines, and 10 GKT, they all roll for activation at the same time. Further, the rule reminds us that while the ICs still have to roll individually to activate their force weapon, the rest of the models with the BoP special rule only make one roll for all of them, as they are considered a single psyker per BoP.

So, in the example, the GM, Libby, and Techmarines would make their own seperate rolls, while the GKT would make a single role. Lets say the GM libby, and 1 Tech secceed, while the other 2 Techs and the GKT fail, with the GKT rolling 6's. GM's NFW is now active, Libby's NFW is now active, the one Techmarine's NFW is now active, however, the rest of the models' NFW remain inactive while the GKT Justicar sucks up a Perils wound (hopefully it was Thawn), and combat continues on.

SJ

Specific Rule (BoP) overrides USR. For the purposes of their NFWs and related Psychic Tests, the IC is not, actually, part of the unit. For all other intents and purposes, they are (unless those other intents and purposes provide specific wording that precludes having the IC as part of the unit).

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"should have" and "GW rules" really dont mix.

Funny, but still a dodge.

No, actually - the parenthetical statement is strictly a reminder. In 5th the ICs could not be bound by this, as they were separate units. Nothing about the context of the statement has changed, so "Unit" still means "unit"

"For all rules purposes". Is BoP a rule? Yes or No.