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Well, lets say you had two librarians attached to a standard squad one is rank 1 and the other rank 2. . The opponent is Tyranids and has Deathleaper on the board which has targeted the rank 2 reducing his Ldr from 10 to 7. You would certainly not allow the lvl 2 psyker to use the Ldr value of the other psycher to make his tests to activate his powers. That is bold faced not allowed, pg 67, right hand column, under the psychic test rule.

Force weapons are activated in the exact same manner as psychic powers, you expend a warp charge, declare the target (whatever just failed its save), then take the psychic test. The rule book even calls it a psychic test. Nemesis force weapons require an unsaved wound before they can be activated. The Grey Knight codex calls activating a NFW a psychic test. NFW are just force weapons with a different name to let you distinguish when the model gains an additional advantage for weilding a weapon of that type, such as the +1 to invunrable saves in close combat for using a NFW sword.

Brotherhood of Psykers trait specifically says the unit can never use the leadership value of on independant character for making psychic tests, which would include activating any kind of force weapon. This is in both the Grey Knight codex and the 6th ed rulebook. Therefore it would be against the rules for an independant character to activate his NFW to trigger the unit's NFW.

It would seem the rule about once a GK has activated his NFW all the members of the unit's force weapons being activated is there because otherwise the unit would have to expend a warp charge (and make a seperate test) for each member that caused an unsaved wound. That would have greatly reduced the effectiveness of NFW against groups of multiwound opponents. It also helps with the different initiatives in a group problem.

Finally, if all of a Brotherhood's NFW activated from an IC making a psychic test, then the Brotherhood members wouldn't have to expend a warp point to activate their weapons, as the cost is paid before the psychic test is made.

I do wonder if a psyker with 2 warp points could make a second attempt to activate a force weapon if the first one failed. I didn't see any rule this in the standard FAQ or GK FAQ. I would make the argument that since activating a force weapon is so similar to activating a psychic power that you could not since you can only attempt to activate a force power once per turn, even if you fail the first time.

The point I am making is *not* to exempt ICs from making the test, just that as they are a mmeber of the unit they ARE bound by the BoP result - because it states the whole unit is bound by it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The point I am making is *not* to exempt ICs from making the test, just that as they are a mmeber of the unit they ARE bound by the BoP result - because it states the whole unit is bound by it.

This. The IC is still required to test and expend charges separately, but if the BoP models roll first he's bound by that roll - pass or fail.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The point I am making is *not* to exempt ICs from making the test, just that as they are a mmeber of the unit they ARE bound by the BoP result - because it states the whole unit is bound by it.

You've misread. Models in the 'unit' are not bound by the results of the activation roll. The rule states that "wounds" caused by models in the unit are bound by the result of the activation roll. As in, if the roll is passed, then all wounds cause by that unit will be ID, while if the roll is failed then all wounds caused by that unit will be treated as having come from normal power weapons.

To reoterate the example: baseline GM and unit of GKT with mixed NFW

Assault Phase Starts: GM rolls for Hammerhand, succeeds
Initiative 10-7
Initiative 6: Halberds strike, unsaved wound is dealt, all GK in the unit roll to activate NFW, all unsaved wounds dealt by the activated weapons will ID
Initiative 5
Initiative 4: Swords strike, all unsaved wounds dealt by the activated weapons will ID
Initiative 3-2
Initiative 1: Hammers Strike, all unsaved wounds dealt will ID pretty much anything left standing

Here is an example of how activation would work with some failed rolls: Mordrak and 4 ghosts with Halberds, 1 with Sword (from a wound)

Assault Phase Starts: Mordrak rolls for Hammerhand, succeeds
Initiative 10-7
Initiative 6: Halberds strike, unsaved wound is dealt, all Ghosts roll to activate NFW per BoP, succeed, all unsaved wounds dealt by Ghosts will ID, Mordrak is ML1 and has not Warp Charges left
Initiative 5
Initiative 4: Sword strikes, any unsaved wounds dealt by the activated weapons wound ID
Initiative 3-2
Initiative 1: Hammers Strike, all unsaved wounds dealt to T5 models will ID, only unsaved wounds dealt by the Ghost would ID T6+ models

Mordrak in the above example does not have an activated NFW, because he expended his Warp Charge on Hammerhand. Not really and issue as he has a Hammer. Also, Mordrak was not bound to the BoP roll because he does not have the BoP special rule, yet he is not an IC. Since Mordrak has Mastery Level 1, he does have a Warp Charge in his own right, which is in addition to the single Warp Charge his Ghost Knights have due to BoP (Although technically the Ghost are using Mordrak's LD since he is their "Justicar", even though both Mordrak and his Ghosts have LD10).

Here is an example of the similar unit with a Challenge Mode Librarian (Staff, Warp Rift, Sanctuary)

Movement Phase Starts: Mordrak rolls for Psychic Communion, succeeeds
Assault Phase Starts: Libby rolls for Hammerhand, succeeds
Initiative 10-7
Initiative 6: Halberds strike, unsaved wound is dealt, all Ghosts and the Libby roll to activate NFW per BoP, succeed, all unsaved wounds dealt by Ghosts and Libby will ID
Initiative 5
Initiative 4: Sword and Staff strike, any unsaved wounds dealt by the activated weapons wound ID
Initiative 3-2
Initiative 1: Hammers Strike, all unsaved wounds dealt to T5 models will ID, only unsaved wounds dealt by the Ghost would ID T6+ models

In the above example, Mordrak used Psychic Communion in the movement phase, denying himself a Warp Charge for the Assault Phase (Libby had him cover ... this time).

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The point I am making is *not* to exempt ICs from making the test, just that as they are a mmeber of the unit they ARE bound by the BoP result - because it states the whole unit is bound by it.

You've misread. Models in the 'unit' are not bound by the results of the activation roll. The rule states that "wounds" caused by models in the unit are bound by the result of the activation roll. As in, if the roll is passed, then all wounds cause by that unit will be ID, while if the roll is failed then all wounds caused by that unit will be treated as having come from normal power weapons.

You're right, I did misread.

So is the NFW text a rule?
If so, why is the IC not a member of the unit for those purposes? He's causing wounds and is part of the unit for all rules purposes.

Jeffersonian - so wounds caused by members of the unit are bound by the result. Transitive.

The IC is, for ALL RULES PURPOSES, a member of the unit.

Ignoring yoru example, as youa re still failing to answer or address the argument at all in any substantive manner.

Is the IC a member of the unit for all rules purposes? Yes, or no

Is BoP a rule? Yes, or no

Is NFW activation a rule? Yes, or no

If you can answer those, directly, you may possibly understand the argument.

Yes, BoP is a rule.

Does any IC in the Grey Knight codex have that rule? Yes or No.
Is BoP transferable to a joined IC? Yes or No.

Elric Greywolf wrote:
Yes, BoP is a rule.

Does any IC in the Grey Knight codex have that rule? Yes or No.
Is BoP transferable to a joined IC? Yes or No.

Both questions are irrelevant. Read the NFW rules.

Jeffersonian, I would like to point out that your Mordrak example is flawed. Mordrak is not an IC, but a character in the ghost knight unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Jeffersonian - so wounds caused by members of the unit are bound by the result. Transitive.

The IC is, for ALL RULES PURPOSES, a member of the unit.

Ignoring yoru example, as youa re still failing to answer or address the argument at all in any substantive manner.

Is the IC a member of the unit for all rules purposes? Yes, or no

Is BoP a rule? Yes, or no

Is NFW activation a rule? Yes, or no

If you can answer those, directly, you may possibly understand the argument.

The answer to all three of your questions is "yes, as long as there's not an exception". The parenthesis that you treat as a reminder is still worded in such a manner that it still works as a rule; Normally, the IC wouldn't have to test on his own, but in this case he still does, despite the general rules saying he doesn't, because thefe's a specific exception to the rule.

Elric Greywolf wrote:
Yes, BoP is a rule.

So, for the purposes of that rule the IC is treated as a normal member of the unit? YEs, or no

Elric Greywolf wrote:
Does any IC in the Grey Knight codex have that rule? Yes or No.

Irrelevant

Elric Greywolf wrote:
Is BoP transferable to a joined IC? Yes or No.

No, but then you have yet again not been anywhere near precise enough in terminology. Stealth is not transferred to an IC if he joins a unit with the rule, but he benefits from it just the same.
If you are going to ask questions actually be precise in terminology, otherwise you end up not actually asking the question you shoudl be asking (I do this for a living as an auditor, btw )


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AW - it states he must test separately, but thsi deos not (because in 5th it COULD not) alter his status as a member of the unit, and does NOT exempt him from being bound by the result

Nos, Nos, Nos, what can be said?

The 'unit' in question is the legal body of models group per the rules. In my recent example, the 'unit' would be Mordrak, his Ghost Knights, and a Librarian (1 IC, 1 BoP, 1 ML1 non-IC, for a total of 3 activation rolls on the first unsaved wound). In my first example several posts back, we had a 'unit' composed of 1 GM, 1 Libby, 3 Techmarines, and 10 GKT (5 ICs, 1 BoP, for a total of 6 activation rolls on the first unsaved wound).

Per the Force Weapon rules on pg. 37 of the BRB: each Psyker is responsible for the activation of their own Force weapon upon the first unsaved wound dealt by that specific Psyker his or her Force weapon.

Per the Nemesis Force Weapons rules on pg. 54 of the GK Codex, if a unit with the BoP special rule inflicts an unsaved wound, everyone in the unit activates their Force weapons, yet reminds us that ICs still roll on their own while those with BoP roll a single attempt. What is interesting about this rule is that if a unit of GK does not have the BoP special rule, such as a GM, Libby, and 3 Techmarines attached to each other, each individual IC has to inflict an unsaved wound on their own in order to trigger an activation attempt. It is only when a BoP is present that all the GK models roll on the first unsaved wound. In the case of Mordrak and his Ghost Knights, the Ghost have BoP, Mordrak doesn't, yet Mordrak is also no an IC, so his activation would be on a single roll with the Knights (he'd still expend his Warp Charge along with their Warp Charge).

So, yes, an IC is a member of the unit for all rule purposes, per the rules for ICs joining other units.

Yes, BoP is a special rule, because the BoP rule tells us it is a special rule.

Yes, NFW activation is a rule, because rules are printed for NFW activation in the GK Codex.

I understand the argument, however, several of this thread's posters do not seem to understand the rules involved in the argument despite the number of quotes and examples.

To restate: if BoP is not present, all Force weapon wielders are on their own for activating their Force weapons per the rules on pg. 37 of the BRB. If BoP is present, all Force weapon wielders in the same unit have the ability to activate their Force weapons immediately upon the first inflicted unsaved wound regardless on who in the unit inflicted the wound as long as it was done by a Psyker with a Nemesis Force Weapon. All the rules for the actual activation are followed per the BRB, with the exception that those with BoP roll once for all BoP models (because they are considered to be a single Psyker for all purposes).

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
To restate: if BoP is not present, all Force weapon wielders are on their own for activating their Force weapons per the rules on pg. 37 of the BRB. If BoP is present, all Force weapon wielders in the same unit have the ability to activate their Force weapons immediately upon the first inflicted unsaved wound regardless on who in the unit inflicted the wound as long as it was done by a Psyker with a Nemesis Force Weapon. All the rules for the actual activation are followed per the BRB, with the exception that those with BoP roll once for all BoP models (because they are considered to be a single Psyker for all purposes).

And if the NFW rules referred to BoP every time there'd be no issue.

As it stands the *unit's* wounds are bound to a single roll.

Jeff, Jeff, Jeff. Or how about you drop the condescension, for once?

The UNITS wounds are bound by the result. The IC is a normal member of the unit for ALL rules purposes.

So how is the IC not bound by the result? Page and para, as you have so far entirely missed the mark with your examples.,

On a second readthrough, I suppose you're right.

Rigel, I'm not sure if that was an agreement or a disagreement.

Nos, again, not sure if that was an agreement or a disagreement.

Could either of you clarify your statements, please?

SJ

It was disagreement, as you have fundamentally missed the point. The Ic, as a normal member of the unit for ALL rules purposes, is bound to the result of the unit - pass or fail.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It was disagreement, as you have fundamentally missed the point. The Ic, as a normal member of the unit for ALL rules purposes, is bound to the result of the unit - pass or fail.

I'd suggest you re-read the rule in question. Your conclusion is incorrect.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It was disagreement, as you have fundamentally missed the point. The Ic, as a normal member of the unit for ALL rules purposes, is bound to the result of the unit - pass or fail.

I'd suggest you re-read the rule in question. Your conclusion is incorrect.

You mean the NFW rule that says exactly that the units wounds are bound by the first result?

Is the IC not part of the unit?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It was disagreement, as you have fundamentally missed the point. The Ic, as a normal member of the unit for ALL rules purposes, is bound to the result of the unit - pass or fail.

I'd suggest you re-read the rule in question. Your conclusion is incorrect.

SJ

]


What, the rule that says that all members of the unit are bound by the result? That rule? You HAVE read that part, yes?

I suggest you reread it, reread the IC rule stating they are a normal member of the unit for all rules purposes and then try to actually answer the argument directly. You ha ve yet to do so, just made yet more baseless assertions. Some rules would be helpful, and are also part of the tenets of this forum

It seems that the two sides are split by an understanding of the word "unit" in the NFW rule.

The belligerent side believe that the word "unit" refers to the unit on the table, with whatever composition it happens to have at the time.
This would invalidate the wording of the Force USR, which states that each individual Psyker must take his own test. (A unit with BoP is "one" Psyker; a unit of two Librarians would still have to take two individual tests, and would gain or not gain ID based on the result of each respective test.)

The other belligerent side believes that, taken in context of the sentence (which explicitly makes joined ICs rely on their own tests) the word "unit" refers to the force org unit with the BoP rule, such as a GKSS sans IC.
This still allows for the Force USR to work as stated.

Elric Greywolf wrote:
The belligerent side believe that the word "unit" refers to the unit on the table, with whatever composition it happens to have at the time.
This would invalidate the wording of the Force USR, which states that each individual Psyker must take his own test. (A unit with BoP is "one" Psyker; a unit of two Librarians would still have to take two individual tests, and would gain or not gain ID based on the result of each respective test.)

The Force USR is modified by the NFW rule. Nothing is broken whatsoever.
If we were to take the Force rule at face value there'd be no requirement for NFW whatsoever.

Two Librarians (that don't have NFW) test separately and aren't bound by each other's results because they aren't using the NFW rules.
Nothing is broken or invalidated - codex overrides rulebook when there's a conflict and in the case of you thinking the rule is "invalidated" that's a clear conflict.

And I'm not being belligerent.

Well, we don't need to go to the dictionary to define simple words and conclude whether or not behaviour is belligerent (like mine probably is). And I didn't point out any particular person with the adjective, I included everyone in the thread (which also implicates myself); but it's good to know that you do not think you are being belligerent.

Niceties aside, could Nos and/or Rig say whether this sequence is correct, according to their reading:
GKGM strkes at I5, before Termies I4, and hits.
Both IC and Termies take separate Force tests (since ICs must take separate test).
GM fails, but Termies pass. GM and Termies all gain ID, since GM is part of unit.

Elric Greywolf wrote:
Niceties aside, could Nos and/or Rig say whether this sequence is correct, according to their reading:
GKGM strkes at I5, before Termies I4, and hits.
Both IC and Termies take separate Force tests (since ICs must take separate test).
GM fails, but Termies pass. GM and Termies all gain ID, since GM is part of unit.

No. The "ICs must take separate tests" is a reminder from 5th edition when ICs were considered separate units while resolving attacks.
If they all have NFW it's a single test for all.

To bounce off of that answer, which leadership is used for the test? The character or the squad?

Or do you use the Leadership of which ever model is triggering the psychic test? So if you had a Grandmaster with a sword in a unit of Halberd purifiers, when the halberds caused the first wound you would us the purifiers leadership for the test. While if the grandmaster had a Halberd(I7) you would use his leadership.

rigeld2 wrote:
The "ICs must take separate tests" is a reminder from 5th edition when ICs were considered separate units while resolving attacks.
If they all have NFW it's a single test for all.

So then, we are allowed to ignore clauses in the codex. How can I tell which parts of codices are defunct leftovers from old editions, and which are still viable? I'm not always going to trust people to have clear reasoning and good thinking, and not many people are as dedicated to hashing out rules as YMDC. How can I know whether people are ignoring things that should be ignored, or just ignoring what they feel like ignoring?

Who is condescending now, Nos?

The rules in question are:

Independent Character (pg. 39, BRB)

While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

Brotherhood of Psykers (pg. 21, GK Codex)

Units of Grey Knights are psykers and use their mental might to enhance their abilities or unleash psychic attacks.
A Grey Knight unit can use one psychic power each turn. The unit counts as a single psyker and follows all the normal rules for psykers, with the following clarifications:
• A Grey Knight unit uses the Leadership of its Justicar or Knight of the Flame (if he is alive), or the unit (if he is dead) for Psychic tests.
• If the Grey Knight unit suffers Perils of the Warp, or any attack the specifically targets psykers, it is resolved against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame (if he is alive), or against a random non-character model in the squad if the Justicar or Knight of the Flame is dead.

Psyker Mastery Levels (pg. 21, GK Codex)

Codex: Grey Knights uses Mastery Levels, shown in brackets after the Psyker special rule, to determine how many psychic powers a character can use each turn. For each Mastery Level a character has, he use one psychic power per turn.

Nemesis Force Weapons (pg. 54, GK Codex)

Force Weapons: All Nemesis force weapons are force weapons, as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to ‘activate’ all of its force weapons (although independent characters must still roll separately). If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit’s Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict instant death. If a unit is striking at different initiative orders, take the Psychic test to ‘activate’ the force weapons immediately after the first unsaved wounds are caused. Any further wounds are caused by the unit’s Nemesis force weapons that phase will be bound by the result of the Psychic test.

So, what about these rules causes an issue? The specific part where it states that is the unit has the Brotherhood of Psykers special rules, only one roll to activate is made, with the exception of Independent Characters which must make their own rolls. Also, there is the part the states that all unsaved wounds dealt after the activation are bound by the results of that roll.

Why is this an issue? Because Independent Characters are for all intents and purposes count as members of whatever unit they join for all unit rules. This means that ICs count as having the BoP special rule while they are joined to a BoP unit. Which would also means that ICs would be counted in with the other BoP models in their unit, if it wasn’t for their Psyker Mastery Level and the following Q and A:

6th edition GK FAQ 1.3

Q: If a unit with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule, a unit of Inquisitorial Henchmen with one or more Psykers in it, or any other similar unit containing multiple Psykers is within 12” of a Culexus
Assassin, does the presence of that unit add +1 to the Animus Speculum’s Assault value or +1 for each Psychic model present in the unit? (p53)
A: Such a unit contributes +1 to the Animus Speculum’s assault value no matter how many Psykers it consist of, unless those Psykers have the Independent Character special rule in which case each such Psyker contributes a +1.

Per the precedent set above, Independent Characters, while counted as part of a unit for all rules purposes, stands on their own for psyker related rules. This creates an interesting interaction between the Nemesis Force Weapon rules, the Brotherhood of Psykers rules, and Mastery Level rule.

If we have a unit with the BoP special rules, say a squad of GKT, the NFW and BoP rules allow that unit to activate their NFW on a single Psychic test roll immediately after the first unsaved wound is caused. If we add a character with a Mastery Level to that squad, such as Justicar Thawn, Thawn would follow all rules for BoP with the exception that he has 2 Warp Charges and may use 2 powers each turn where the rest of his unit has 1 Warp Charge and can only use 1 power per turn. On their first unsaved wound caused, the entire unit can activate their NFW on a single Psychic test roll using Thawn’s Leadership, with all further unsaved wounds inflicting Instant Death.

Another example of a similar situation is Grand Master Mordrak and his Ghost Knights. As the Ghost Knights have BoP, and Mordrak counts as the unit’s upgrade character while also not being an Independent Character, Mordrak also falls under the BoP rule for NFW activation. Yet, if we add an IC to Thawn’s or Mordrak’s units, the BoP rule interaction with NFW activation becomes more complex. A Librarian added to Mordrak’s Ghost Knights or Thawn’s GKT squad would have to roll separately for their own NFW activation (per the NFW rules). Once the Libby’s NFW is active, any further wounds inflicted by the Libby with his NFW wound cause Instant Death just like the rest of the BoP unit.

Example: Librarian join a GKT squad with Thawn. Thawn comes equipped with a Halberd, while the Librarian has a Staff, and the GKT have Swords and Hammers. If Thawn scores an unsaved wound, he and his squad (including the Libby) immediately roll a Psychic test to activated their NFW. Thawn rolls for his squad per the BoP rule, while the Libby roles on his own per the BoP rule. Once the two rolls are completed, and if both pass, all of the wounds inflicted by the unit’s NFW with cause ID from that point on. Note that the Libby has yet to swing his Staff in combat, yet his NFW is already activated when his initiative step is reached. Any wounds he causes with his NFW that round are bound by the results of that activation roll.

Let’s say the Libby passed his check while Thawn failed his with a double 6. Thawn dies on initiative step 6, and his remaining GKT go without NFW activation, yet the Libby’s Staff is fully active when
initiative step 4 is reached. In this case, only the Libby’s inflicted unsaved wounds will ID, as the remaining GKT are bound by their failed activation roll.

Nos, Rigel, please inform the rest of us how you think the activation sequence works, with examples and citations. That is, only if you feel that I am wrong.

SJ

*edit for spacing, spelling, Dyslexia

Op- yes, you are correct

nosferatu1001 wrote:

What, the rule that says that all members of the unit are bound by the result? That rule? You HAVE read that part, yes?

spam deleted.
reds8n

Jeffersonian - except the IC is bound to the units result, as he is a member of the unit. While he passed his roll the unit failed (thanks to thawn) and so his weapon is NOT active.

This alone tells you that the *reminder* text in parens is just that - reminder of an old rule.

You also made an unsupported leap in your claim that "for psychic purposes" an IC is considered differently to the unit - *just* for Animus Speculum, as that is the full context AND answer to the question raised do they add +1. You cannot leap and make the claim that this is somehow true for all psychic purposes.