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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/13 07:23:21
Subject: Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Fireknife Shas'el
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Hi Everybody,
I don't know if any of you read the Escapist magazine, but I saw the article below today and thought "my my, that sounds just like a popular miniature war gaming company we all know and love." I thought it might be of interest and I'd like to hear other people's opinions.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/10226-Not-Greedy-Just-Clueless
Not Greedy, Just Clueless
SHAMUS YOUNG | 12 MARCH 2013 1:00 PM
Experienced Points - RSS 2.0
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Question: "Why does publisher X have such greedy business practices?"
Answer: "Companies exist to make money!"
I see this exchange a lot, and the sad thing is that both the question and the answer are misguided. Jim Sterling touched on this a few weeks ago, but I thought I'd dig a little deeper and talk about why the problem is cluelessness, not greed.
When people accuse a company of being "greedy", they make it sound like they think the company ought to make less money out of the kindness of their hearts. But this isn't really about money, or companies making too much. EA has been doing layoffs and struggling in various ways for years, and that doesn't make their behavior any less annoying to consumers. Apple and Starbucks are notorious for selling things with massive markups, yet both companies have rabid fans who can't wait to hand over their cash for the Next Delicious Thing. Meanwhile, people are becoming enraged at one-dollar items for sale in Dead Space 3. This isn't because people are mindless sheeple, or irrationally biased against EA, or because people are bad at math. It's because the most important aspect of these transactions isn't the price, but the consumer experience.
About twenty-five years ago, fast food places invented the idea of the value meal, combo meal, or whatever you call it when you order one item to get several. Before this, you had to order your burger, fries, and a drink individually. With a combo meal, you could just order a single item for a single price. Sure, maybe you used to get a small drink and now you get a medium and you didn't usually get fries and now you do, but by gathering up the items under a single price point the restaurant can make things more convenient, get you to buy more food, and leave you with the impression that you somehow saved money. This was smart. This was a system devised by people who understood what consumers wanted and how they behaved.
The stupid way around would be to make more money by charging people for small items. Charge for napkins. Charge for condiments. Charge for the cup, the ice, the tray, and the utensils. Charge people to enter the store, charge them to talk with other patrons, charge them for the bathroom, for window seats, for privacy, and for access to WiFi. This is how EA has been selling their games.
People will call the second idea "greedy", even if it makes less money than the combo meal idea. This isn't about greed, it's about customers feeling respected and not being unduly hassled over trivial things. Even more importantly, this is about convenience.
When someone is contemplating spending sixty USD, the last thing you want is for them to hesitate over concerns with side transactions: Microsoft points, online passes, account creation, activation keys, privacy concerns, server availability, pay-to-win items, DRM, or any of the other stupid crap that creates stress and keeps games from being fun. It's not about the ten bucks or about the quality of the item being offered. In the end, it's about the customer feeling like they are going to get a whole and complete product when they put their money down. They don't want to worry about buying DLC (or not) on day one and wondering how much of this extra content will be missed or how it fits into the product as a whole.
This is also why the whole "online games broken at launch" issue is so powerful. The botched launch of SimCity is just the latest in a long line of similar debacles. Sure, these outages are "temporary" and "only impact some users", but these are incredibly inconvenient. Not just inconvenient for the people who can't play, but for people considering buying and game and worrying if they will face similar problems. Online, your company can live or die on the convenience of your service.
People will pay for convenience. This is doubly true of digital transactions. This is what makes EA businesses practices so awful. They're not just making the product more expensive, but also making it far less convenient to use. This is a brain-dead and tone-deaf way to engage with their audience, and it helps explain why EA is so reviled by their own customers. They're trying to turn games from a product to a service, and their service is so bad it borders on sabotage.
Valve's Steam sales are the videogame equivalent of a combo meal: A system designed to get you to spend more, while somehow leaving you with the impression that you saved money. I have an embarrassing number of games that I've never even installed, but I bought them because the price was low and I didn't want to miss out. I allow the Steam update window to appear at launch, so that I can see if more deals show up. I know from reading what others have said that I am not alone in this behavior. Steam has not only sold us games we never intended to buy, but they've trained us to treat their advertisements like a reward. Steam didn't do this by accident. They did it because it makes money. And people love them for it. .
The problem isn't greed. Valve is "greedy", but they're good at it. After handing over my money I feel like I've won. EA isn't more greedy than Valve, they're just inept and clueless. When I buy from EA (or heck, even when I get something free from Origin) I walk away with the feeling like I've been unduly hassled and disrespected.
Shamus Young is a programmer, a novelist, and he HATES typing in activation codes. You have no idea.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/13 07:23:56
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/13 12:52:58
Subject: Re:Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets
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Interesting read, that is.
The whole concept of video games being sold as service is rather daft and does leave a bitter thought in my head that I'm being shafted by the Publisher. In a way the biggest culprits of games as a service are MMORPGs with subscription models, as they really are just services and you rarely get a physical copy. Actually this probably also explains why people don't enjoy always-online DRM. It's a cluttered mess that gets in the way and prevents you from playing the game you invested in. And what's worse is that it isn't you who is in control of your playing hours - it's the Publisher's. You want to play at 7pm? Well, best hope you've got good internet and they have reliable systems up and running. And if they can't cater to supporting the game then screw you customer, you can't play. At which point the game is not a product, it's a service.
As for EA, well, the Internet has a ball whenever they do something stupid. Origin being unusable, the ME3 ending mess, SimCity borked servers, micro-transactions in singleplayer games, to name a few recent ones. The guys at EA aren't very conscious of their playerbase it seems - if they were, they wouldn't be all over the headlines with such silly ideas they want to put out with the next big title. And the customers only see it as greed - it can be seen as incompetence from someone who takes a different look at the situation but most would see the face value as pure greed; a desire to empty your bank account with mediocre "services" and BS business ideas & practises that make sure you walk away with a sore rectum.
EDIT: And I just realised I missed the point of the thread  Go me. OK, so how to relate to GW? Well, they provide products of decent value but with questionable business practises, lack of respect for their players and dictates how a person experiences the game. You have irregular updates and every-changing rules with inconsistent balance. The products go up in price with little change in quality to justify the pricetag and more expensive items that you must buy to get a better experience...
I can kinda see a comparison now. Kinda
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/13 12:58:41
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/13 19:26:44
Subject: Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Fireknife Shas'el
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Yes, it was the fundamental idea of "respect your customers and they will like you, regardless of how much many you take off of them" that struck home. I just thought the article put it forward in a very clear and eloquent way and was worth sharing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/13 19:30:00
Subject: Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Badass "Sister Sin"
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Interesting article. Thanks!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/14 00:59:23
Subject: Re:Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Mysterious Techpriest
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This is what I've always said; it's a not a matter of greed or exploitative practices, but of bumbling attempts at such. It's like they mistook a caricature of corporate culture for a how-to guide. The most galling thing is they don't even try to put a positive spin on their behavior, they just sit silent while constantly raising their prices and providing continued employment to Mat Ward.
What can we do about it? Switch to their competitors' products (I mean really, at the end of the day Warhammer wins in the fluff department, but the game's a mess, particularly with this latest edition, and most of the model ranges are rubbish (except for vehicles, most of which are still gorgeous)) and GW will either have to adapt (by excising its leadership as sacrifices to its shareholders) or will collapse, meaning someone competent could wind up owning their IP. You can buy a playable, competitive Malifaux crew for less than any 40k vehicle or a box of marines costs these days, and unlike 40k everything is pretty much balanced and competitive.
I would say "oh look, it's this thread again," but this actually seems rooted around a clear point other than just griping about the constant, ridiculous price increases and the all-around contemp GW has (and does not even try to hide) for its customers.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/14 01:03:06
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/14 02:10:48
Subject: Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Screaming Shining Spear
Pittsburgh, PA
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This was a great article! I agree, it wouldn't seem so bad if they changed a few simple things. For one, stop offering packaged "deals" that cost exactly the same as the individual components. I get that they think it's convenient, but it's really just insulting.
Second, the yearly price hike have got to go. Everyone knows that inflation isn't that high and they are only doing it for the shareholders, not for any real reason and with no increase in the quality of the products we're paying for.
Third, bring back some of the content they took away from us! All the painting and modeling articles on the website? Was it costing them money to keep them up? Instead they just took them away, getting rid of valuable content that they had previously been offering. If they say they're a modeling company first, then they should at least do a good job of offering modeling content, since they sure as hell aren't offering much for the game.
Be more receptive to the community! Listen to what we are saying so you can update FAQ's and address the issues your customers are having. I'm not saying bow to our every whim, but at least make us feel like we have a voice.
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Eldar shenanigans are the best shenanigans!
DQ:90S++G+M--B+IPw40k09#+D++A++/areWD-R++T(T)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/14 02:31:37
Subject: Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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What the article is basically saying is that if you package things together in such a way where customers get fewer options they'll have a better experience? So GW should start only selling battleforces and not individual kits?
Apple treats its customers like garbage, and people line up to give them they're money because owning apple products is a conspicuous luxury item that you can use to impress your friends. The Toyota Prius is one of the worst cars in existence, being two to three times as expensive, just for parts that break more easily, yet people will gladly pay it, and go on a waiting list if they can't get one. If you don't offer people a product that makes them feel cool, or allows them to feel superior to other people, then they're going to turn that desire to feel superior against the company.
GW doesn't provide a method for people to stroke their egos, and therefore some people decide to take it out on GW. It's nothing new, really. Any time you have nerds, you have nerd rage.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/14 03:20:39
Subject: Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine
Iowa
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Ailaros wrote:
GW doesn't provide a method for people to stroke their egos, and therefore some people decide to take it out on GW. It's nothing new, really. Any time you have nerds, you have nerd rage.
^This
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/14 04:17:24
Subject: Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Mysterious Techpriest
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Ailaros wrote:What the article is basically saying is that if you package things together in such a way where customers get fewer options they'll have a better experience? So GW should start only selling battleforces and not individual kits?
Apple treats its customers like garbage, and people line up to give them they're money because owning apple products is a conspicuous luxury item that you can use to impress your friends. The Toyota Prius is one of the worst cars in existence, being two to three times as expensive, just for parts that break more easily, yet people will gladly pay it, and go on a waiting list if they can't get one. If you don't offer people a product that makes them feel cool, or allows them to feel superior to other people, then they're going to turn that desire to feel superior against the company.
GW doesn't provide a method for people to stroke their egos, and therefore some people decide to take it out on GW. It's nothing new, really. Any time you have nerds, you have nerd rage.
Are you just deliberately missing the point, or do you really not get the issues here? Apple and the Prius are terrible points of comparison, as the success of both is predicated on peerless spin and pr, and aside from their small, enthralled following are pretty widely derided for their many failings. GW on the other hand, can't even be bothered to try to pretend it doesn't despise its customers, or that its decisions make any economic sense to anyone who isn't a coked-up 80s businessman caricature. It acts in an erratic, though consistently subpar, manner, cuts quality while jacking up its prices, hasn't produced a decent model range in two years (and hadn't really done all that many prior to that either), and employs Mat Ward (although, in his defense, he seems to be less grossly incompetent and more just a giant troll), who amounts to the single most destructive influence to the quality of the game. Literally the only good thing GW has are the Warhammer Fantasy and 40k settings.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/14 04:24:17
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/14 04:28:55
Subject: Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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So, you're saying that GW should double the price on its products, move production to places in china so bad that the workers kill themselves and then spend that huge wad of gouged cash on a massive PR campaign to make themselves look like good companies with cool products?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/14 04:34:57
Subject: Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Screaming Shining Spear
Pittsburgh, PA
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That's not what he's saying at all. He's saying that GW doesn't even do anything to hide the fact that they treat their customers like trash. He isn't defending Apple's or Toyota's business models, just saying that their PR is why people like them (I personally love Apple products, but besides the point). GW's every move, while I'm sure it's not, looks like it's being done solely to screw the customer, and it would be nice to see them at least try to make this look like not the case.
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Eldar shenanigans are the best shenanigans!
DQ:90S++G+M--B+IPw40k09#+D++A++/areWD-R++T(T)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/14 04:37:37
Subject: Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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The first step for Games Workshop to improve themselves is to realize they have competitors. EA can take the "We don't have to worry about people musclin' in" attitude cause it doesn't really have to. People will buy CoD in copious amounts because of reasons. 40k has plenty of alternatives. You can drop the game and use the fluff. Warmachine rules with 40k fluff anyone?
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Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/14 04:45:43
Subject: Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Executing Exarch
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I'd post this on GWs facebook page but yeah.....
TheCustomLime wrote:The first step for Games Workshop to improve themselves is to realize they have competitors. EA can take the "We don't have to worry about people musclin' in" attitude cause it doesn't really have to. People will buy CoD in copious amounts because of reasons. 40k has plenty of alternatives. You can drop the game and use the fluff. Warmachine rules with 40k fluff anyone?
Exactly, and with GW chasing out people from their stores to do at home or club gaming it just really introduces them to all their competitors.
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Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/14 04:50:14
Subject: Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Mysterious Techpriest
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Ailaros wrote:So, you're saying that GW should double the price on its products, move production to places in china so bad that the workers kill themselves and then spend that huge wad of gouged cash on a massive PR campaign to make themselves look like good companies with cool products?
Honest question: did you just read the first one and a half sentences before stopping and thinking "how can I most egregiously misrepresent this statement?"?
Valve, mentioned in the article, is a perfect example of good PR. They do a whole lot of scary, sleazy, and manipulative things, and yet still manage to come across as benevolent because their whole business model is based on PR, while making money hand over fist. GW just jacks up the prices and sits silently, while allowing rather egregious problems to go unaddressed in their game. They might not be suffering economically, but I'd bet their growth is disproportionately small compared to the industry as a whole.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/14 04:52:48
Subject: Re:Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Krazed Killa Kan
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Businesses should not abstain from making money out of the kindness of their hearts - this is ridiculous.
You, however, as the consumer, should buy without regard for price and you should always toe the line with public relations. Out of the kindness of your heart, you should support GW no matter what, like a good corporate trooper. Whatever you do, do not reflect upon cost, complain, or cost any aspersions on the good corporate name of Company X. And whatever you do, DO NOT BOYCOTT ANYTHING. Buy buy buy. Consume consume consume. No matter what.
That's what a free market means. It only works when one side of the economic equation absolutely fails to use good judgment.
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Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/14 05:03:22
Subject: Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Executing Exarch
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Ailaros wrote:What the article is basically saying is that if you package things together in such a way where customers get fewer options they'll have a better experience? So GW should start only selling battleforces and not individual kits?
No, what he is saying is you can make a box like space hulk with beautiful sculpts and good value and people wont have a problem paying for it. Look at dark vengence as well, thats good value for the amount you get. No one even blinks at the price on that box. Make bundles for each army that are a massive deal to make going into the hobby an experience that isnt like buying a car from a sleaze ball salesman, and lastly, have a goddamn sale.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/14 05:09:35
Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/14 05:12:44
Subject: Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Fanatic with Madcap Mushrooms
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These threads are literally less than a dime a dozen.
Like the product? Buy it. You don't need to pay retail for it, you don't need to buy it new, but if you like it and want it, then by all means, buy it.
Don't like the product? Whether you dislike the company's practices, or simply the product itself, no one forces you to buy it. Boycott it, call it out, etc.
That's about it. If GW's business practices were honestly driving them into the dirt as deeply as people claim, they wouldn't be around. Like it or not, it's a popular company, 40k is easily one of the most popular IPs and the recent survey on which game people prefer the most has 40k in the lead.
I'm not here to defend their practices, they're subjective as it is and I have no control over the ones I don't like. Honestly threads like these are just blind conjecture and eventual flame war/negative commenting.
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Some people play to win, some people play for fun. Me? I play to kill toy soldiers.
DR:90S++GMB++IPwh40k206#+D++A++/hWD350R+++T(S)DM+
WHFB, AoS, 40k, WM/H, Starship Troopers Miniatures, FoW
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/14 05:36:59
Subject: Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Mysterious Techpriest
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But this one is centered on a cogent copy/pasted article that quite articulately explains how loathesome business practices aren't bad because they're mean, they're bad because they're stupid caricatures of how businesses act, instead of just miscellaneous rage at GW for its transgressions.
Don't like the product? Whether you dislike the company's practices, or simply the product itself, no one forces you to buy it. Boycott it, call it out, etc.
And what are we doing if not calling it out?
That's about it. If GW's business practices were honestly driving them into the dirt as deeply as people claim, they wouldn't be around. Like it or not, it's a popular company, 40k is easily one of the most popular IPs and the recent survey on which game people prefer the most has 40k in the lead.
It's the biggest and most established player in the industry, but its response to a rise in competition has been to degrade its quality, jack up the prices, and just clam up. It holds its consumer base in such contempt it doesn't even attempt any of the extremely prevalent and tested methods of retaining or expanding its consumer base. It's less business savvy than a drug dealing highschool dropout.
Honestly threads like these are just blind conjecture and eventual flame war/negative commenting.
For what it's worth, a thread like this in Dakka Discussions was the tipping point that led to me jumping ship for Malifaux, so at least some good can come of them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/14 07:12:04
Subject: Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Fireknife Shas'el
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For m personally one of the most relevant examples is the recent flier rules debacle. For ages the only way to get the rules was to own an iPad and be willing to pay a micro transaction; now you also have the option of buying a £20 book.
The point the article makes is that not only is this very annoying to the customer base but also probably isn't actually a good way to make money.
The better way to make money would be to put a free PDF up on the website with links to bundles of 3 flyers that actually have a 10% discount in them (and big red letters saying "10% discount, for a limited time only!") and watch them sell, sell, sell! And at the end of the day they'd make more profits off that than they will charging us for every little step of the way, but we'd feel like they'd actually done something to support the game and help us out.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/14 12:35:29
Subject: Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Executing Exarch
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Like the psychic powers app, they want $12 for the start and $6 for each additional army.
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Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/14 13:05:19
Subject: Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets
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@Alairos: I won't lie, I can't tell if you're using sarcasm or not.
Anyway I believe the point of the article is that if you are a business providing a product or service, your reputation MATTERS. You can pull all kinds of shenanigans that could be seen as robbery but hey, if your customers think you're the best company in town, you'll get away with it hand over fist. If they hate your guts then you might as well close up shop because your market will only shrink.
For GW to succeed, using this thought process, they should try and engage the customers more. More support for the game, more feedback to queries and complaints, better tips and tutorials for players, lighter prices for products across the board and a visible effort to try and improve the customer experience. When you get the customers unanimously on your side, you can then start doing some BS stuff because hey, they'll put up with it. For a while, anyway.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/14 13:38:33
Subject: Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Dakka Veteran
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Jadenim wrote:
Valve's Steam sales are the videogame equivalent of a combo meal: A system designed to get you to spend more, while somehow leaving you with the impression that you saved money. I have an embarrassing number of games that I've never even installed, but I bought them because the price was low and I didn't want to miss out. I allow the Steam update window to appear at launch, so that I can see if more deals show up. I know from reading what others have said that I am not alone in this behavior. Steam has not only sold us games we never intended to buy, but they've trained us to treat their advertisements like a reward. Steam didn't do this by accident. They did it because it makes money. And people love them for it. .
The problem isn't greed. Valve is "greedy", but they're good at it. After handing over my money I feel like I've won. EA isn't more greedy than Valve, they're just inept and clueless. When I buy from EA (or heck, even when I get something free from Origin) I walk away with the feeling like I've been unduly hassled and disrespected.
Shamus Young is a programmer, a novelist, and he HATES typing in activation codes. You have no idea.
Yeah I kind of don't get this. I use to spend $200-300 a year on games at a retail store compared to $80-100 AT MOST I spend now on steam a year. So this guy just buys every shiny that shows up with out ever thinking it through?
As for making 40k cheaper, just buy online and get your stuff for 25% off (new) or eBay it.
*snipped*
Please don't post things like this on Dakka. Thanks
reds8n .
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/14 14:11:34
"I LIEK CHOCOLATE MILK" - Batman
"It exist because it needs to. Because its not the tank the imperium deserve but the one it needs right now . So it wont complain because it can take it. Because they're not our normal tank. It is a silent guardian, a watchful protector . A leman russ!" - Ilove40k
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/14 14:19:28
Subject: Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Executing Exarch
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Juvieus Kaine wrote:
Anyway I believe the point of the article is that if you are a business providing a product or service, your reputation MATTERS. You can pull all kinds of shenanigans that could be seen as robbery but hey, if your customers think you're the best company in town, you'll get away with it hand over fist. If they hate your guts then you might as well close up shop because your market will only shrink.
Like GW sales volume over the last 10 years.
Juvieus Kaine wrote:
For GW to succeed, using this thought process, they should try and engage the customers more. More support for the game, more feedback to queries and complaints, better tips and tutorials for players, lighter prices for products across the board and a visible effort to try and improve the customer experience. When you get the customers unanimously on your side, you can then start doing some BS stuff because hey, they'll put up with it. For a while, anyway.
They are pretty much doing the exact opposite of this, they have a complete lock down on feedback and are limiting avenues to use their product.
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Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/14 14:26:45
Subject: Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Why is no one understanding what the op is saying??
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/14 14:31:28
Subject: Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Badass "Sister Sin"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/14 19:56:52
Subject: Re:Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Regular Dakkanaut
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But I don't want to play Malifaux, or WH\Hordes, or any of that other crap. They don't hold a candle to 40K, and GW knows it.
Sure you can buy a cheap Malifaux army, but so what? It is not a massive battle in a sci-fi universe with vehicles, super human soldiers
in power armour, hordes of space orks, massive guns, and hordes of daemons.
There is no real competition for 40K, and that is GW's saving grace. I honestly don't see there being real competition within the next 10 years either.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/14 20:20:25
Subject: Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Dakka Veteran
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eh the next 10 years will see the further development of using 3d printers for a home market so their competion will end. People will be able to make their own minitures using exisitng 3d images. Pretty much GW couldn't do anything to stop you as long as you don't sell em.
homemade 3d printers are pretty cool now, a guy is working on resin assault rifles and has a working lower receiver for his AR-15, soon you will be able to DL the CAD designs of a ar-15 and print your own gun out  (if you have the printer and resin)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/14 20:23:26
"I LIEK CHOCOLATE MILK" - Batman
"It exist because it needs to. Because its not the tank the imperium deserve but the one it needs right now . So it wont complain because it can take it. Because they're not our normal tank. It is a silent guardian, a watchful protector . A leman russ!" - Ilove40k
3k
2k
/ 1k
1k |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/14 22:27:24
Subject: Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Disguised Speculo
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You know what I hate? Buying a game and then being able to install it once only on a single computer.
But I don't want to play Malifaux, or WH\Hordes, or any of that other crap. They don't hold a candle to 40K, and GW knows it.
I disagree. The saving grace of GW is the 'first mover' principle. They got big first, now everyone has GW and not everyone has anything else. That means guarenteed players - in my area in particular, only Flames of War can match them and thats because I live half an hour's drive from their HQ
The rest is just gravy - who gives a gak what the fluff or the rules are like if noone else in your area plays the game?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/14 23:31:10
Subject: Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Krazed Killa Kan
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Cryonicleech wrote:These threads are literally less than a dime a dozen.
Like the product? Buy it. You don't need to pay retail for it, you don't need to buy it new, but if you like it and want it, then by all means, buy it.
Don't like the product? Whether you dislike the company's practices, or simply the product itself, no one forces you to buy it. Boycott it, call it out, etc.
That's about it. If GW's business practices were honestly driving them into the dirt as deeply as people claim, they wouldn't be around. Like it or not, it's a popular company, 40k is easily one of the most popular IPs and the recent survey on which game people prefer the most has 40k in the lead.
I'm not here to defend their practices, they're subjective as it is and I have no control over the ones I don't like. Honestly threads like these are just blind conjecture and eventual flame war/negative commenting.
You are so right. People should never review any products or ever reflect on their value in a public forum. Public discussion about business practices is entirely counterproductive and we should all isolate ourselves completely from each other and only ever make individual purchasing decisions.
The next time I see someone reading a video game review or a restaurant review in a magazine, I'm going to slap it out of their hand!
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Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/15 00:27:51
Subject: Re:Why we hate GW, and some ideas on what they can do about it...
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Apprehensive Inquisitorial Apprentice
Washington
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I have to say i agree completely with the feeling of the topic. The reasons cited in the article is the main reason I have given up playing any of the latest video games except now buying them used two years later or via Steam on holiday sales (though I have to admit they got me to at the games I have bought but never installed). I hate the whole micro transaction system that has been implemented and I agree that it basically makes me feel like they think we are stupid. I loved Bioshock, but I am not pre-purchasing the $60 game and all 4 planned expansions over the next year so I get the bonus material. I'll wait a year and buy a complete game for $20. Here is a perfect example of the problem with their approach to sales: I was in a GW some time ago thinking of applying, I talked to a local manager about my history in the hobby (stretching back to blood bowl 2nd edition) and my love of the fluff of all armies and how many of the books I have read and some of my best conversions and paint jobs, to which he said that would be a hindrance of me getting hired. He said that they can train a monkey to paint and play the game, but they want someone they can mold into their system to sell it and being excited about it hinders your ability to sell it objectively. Now, I have studied human behavior and interaction to a fair amount acquiring my mostly useless communications degree, as a logistics coordinator I dealt with some of the most rediculous and ineffectual lying salesmen I could have imagined, in my time selling as a 3rd party for companies like Comcast and Cutco and time share I learned the true deviousness of the psychological approach to sales, but I have never encountered such a fundamentally flawed perspective of how to sell a product and relate to customers as I do at my local GW; it reflects so completely on their view of their consumers. It seems like they have become so focused on how to sell that they no longer even care if it is fun, they literally think it is too big to fail and if they lose a few fans and enthusiasts on the way more will be grown to replace them as consumers who don't know any better. I have to say that it is this lack of enjoyment in every aspect of their approach to sales from, "So, what have you been working on?" I mean really you ask me the same question every time I come in, the incessant hovering has driven away my desire to even browse and look for inspiration for my next HQ (not that they ever have the models I am looking for and no, I don't want to Fing order it online! If I did, I wouldn't be here!), to their bundles which just use the word in pure definition instead of a sales approach, to the fact that everyone I know looks to ebay first when looking to buy, that has kept me from buying anything from GW unless I have to. I haven't bought a plastic kit from a GW in over two years, and I grudge the fact that I have to go in there to buy the resin models and deal with the same Fing sales pitch over and over again by someone who doesn't even care about their consumer's experience. Two of my friends have already given the hobby up, I haven't bought anything in two months and I haven't had a battle in over a month. For the first time I am seriously considering selling everything and looking for the next best thing, send my money to some kick starter to help a company that is run by people who enjoy and play the game they sell. I love the fluff and their audio dramas are amazing, but I seriously think that GW is now run completely by salesmen who give input on the rules specifically to sell more product and it is so (http://pinsofwar.com/retailers-outraged-over-death-from-the-skies/) blatantly (http://theback40k.blogspot.com/2012/06/gw-goes-digital-and-blows-it.html) obvious! (http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2012/04/15/network-news-gws-actual-statements-about-finecast/) . I don't want to play that game, I want to play a balanced tactics game that is enjoyable to collect for me and my friends. I honestly don't know if it is even possible for them to repair the damage done to their image at this point, but what's worse is that they have no intention of fixing it. Starting off would be a big sale that is actually a sale for once, maybe an annual sale, or every now and again a coupon for GW account users who have purchased through their system. Even if it is something trivial sent out by an automated system (Seriously, Think Geek and Amazon both do this and even though I rarely take part in Audible's "Flash Sales" I generally browse them and when I am given a $5 credit, I generally use it towards a $50+ purchase). There was a brilliant book written on the subject, http://www.amazon.com/Predictably-Irrational-Revised-Expanded-Edition/dp/0061353248 that if just one of the higher ups in GW marketing read could completely change their marketing strategy and understanding of how to relate & sell to people; but like EA, they are doomed to be carried forward by their initial growth inertia until one by one their best people drop off and go Kick Starter or get picked up by the small companies that get big by making games for the people who like to play them... Kind of the way GW used to be.
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This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2013/03/15 00:53:24
Hive Fleet Sorginak - 6,225 pts
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-Taking on all comers. |
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