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So the impaler cannon can shoot without line of sight but if something is behind cover, it still gets a cover save correct?

I would say yes, but to be certain,.. look up the weapon description in the Nids codex,.. might be that it says something about it.. but otherwise, i would say yes,, you get cover.

Though me thinking something doesnt make it true,, i cant find anything about it in the BRB yet.

It can shoot without line of sight. If there is intervening cover, then no cover save is allowed. If the target is inside cover, it gets a cover save, but only for the cover it is inside of.

Note that jink is technically a cover save, so no jink saves against hive guard.

Cheers,

V

Nope! By rule, the model must both normally have gotten a cover save from the terrain, AND be touching it. If something would give cover, but is not being touched by the model, no cover! And, if it's touching but not enough to give cover (less than 25%), no cover! Also, Cover is NOT granted by artificial means! No Jink, no smoke, no displacement pods, no psychic powers and no KFF. And, no night fight!

Basically, area terrain and touching the cover gives saves against Hive Guard, and nothing else.

Impale cannon is one of the few ways to take out flyers if you manadge to hit on a 6. S8 and no jink save. :-)

If you want a save the stand in base contact with the terain.

If you dont have line of sight, you dont see the model, thus enough of the model counts as covered, thus cover? That is how i see it anyways..

Is it a barrage weapon?

Again, i dont have the codex so i dont know what the weapon description says,. but i fight against Nids a lot.. So i want to know

Haha, Grobnub, you think we need line of sight? The hivemind is the ultimate big brother. ^_^

The Impaler cannon basically ignores LoS restrictions and you only get area terrain saves IIRC.

OK, what exactly is considered area terrain? I get confused my terrain.

So, for example, if the target is a vehicle/tank on a hill, in ruins, or behind forest?

Does the same apply to a troop on a hill, in ruins, or behind a forest?

Area Terrain is whatever peices you and your opponent have defined as such.

Forests, the bases of Ruins, a river, an area of rough ground, etc... These are possible examples.

But you have to be in the terrain to get the cover save, otherwise the 25% rule still applies. And vehicles don't get cover from just being in area terrain, they must be 25% covered.

Sooooo,.. basicly, when im outside LOS i am basicly 100% covered yes?

But area terrain is enough for me,.. got lots of that!

Except the Impaler Cannon ignores the 25% concealment due to its special rule.

 Grey Templar wrote:

But you have to be in the terrain to get the cover save, otherwise the 25% rule still applies. And vehicles don't get cover from just being in area terrain, they must be 25% covered.

This is clear as mud to me. But then again I'm slow.

Do vehicles in area terrain not get a cover save?

Is the top of a hill area terrain? I understand LOS and if there is a hill between the impaler and the target, I would understand getting a cover save. But what if the target is on area terrain (hill) and LOS is not blocked?

Here are 4 different examples. #1 and #2 are in a 12"x12" ruined building (No LOS), #3 is on top of a hill (Has LOS), #4 is behind a wall (No LOS), and #5 is partially obscured by a wall (No LOS).

What is the cover save, if any, for each example?

I tried looking at the gw FAQ but it was in polish... As were half of the other PDFs so I have no idea. If you can, look at your FAQ.

In your diagram, only targets 1 and 2 would get a cover save. All other targets would get no cover save.

Regards,

V

 amrogers3 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

But you have to be in the terrain to get the cover save, otherwise the 25% rule still applies. And vehicles don't get cover from just being in area terrain, they must be 25% covered.

This is clear as mud to me. But then again I'm slow.

1) Do vehicles in area terrain not get a cover save?

2) Is the top of a hill area terrain? I understand LOS and if there is a hill between the impaler and the target, I would understand getting a cover save. But what if the target is on area terrain (hill) and LOS is not blocked?

Here are 4 different examples. #1 and #2 are in a 12"x12" ruined building (No LOS), #3 is on top of a hill (Has LOS), #4 is behind a wall (No LOS), and #5 is partially obscured by a wall (No LOS).

What is the cover save, if any, for each example?

1) No, they must be 25% obscured to gain the cover save. Simply being in the terrain does nothing.

2) Only if you have predefined the hill as area terrain with your opponent. Normally hills are not area terrain, only providing LoS cover.


Targets 1 and 2 would get 5+ cover for being in the area terrain and being blocked 25% or more.

The other targets would get no saves at all.

The old "hull down" rule, where you get +1 cover if you can not see the side you shoot at (it is stille pressent under a diferent name) could increase that save.

But you would need to in aria terain with the tank miniumum 25% covered. I do belive that would qualify withouth line of sight if the tank is in aria terain.

Minf you #4 and #5 could get a coversave as long as they where in base to base contact.

Still not getting it.

Dont ruins confer a 4+ save? So would #1 and #2 get a cover save for the ruins or for the hill?

Why does vehicle #4 or #5 need to touch to get a cover save?

So if they are in area terrain, they do not get a cover save? They have to be 25% obscured to get a cover save?

Also, why doesn't #4 get a cover save since it is obscured by the wall?

Yes, ruins give a 4+ save if the LoS is blocked. But the Impaler Cannon ignores that. Thus the only save they can get is for being in the Ruins base(which is 5+ area terrain)

If the vehicle is 100% hidden from the Impaler cannon, the save does improve to 4+ due to the rule that if you can't see the facing a vehicle is in the save is improved by 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 amrogers3 wrote:

Also, why doesn't #4 get a cover save since it is obscured by the wall?

Because Impaler cannons ignore LoS.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 amrogers3 wrote:

Also, why doesn't #4 get a cover save since it is obscured by the wall?

Because Impaler cannons ignore LoS.

It's pretty simple, honestly...

Area terrain is things like a forest, crater, etc - stuff that isn't obscuring you or that you're just plain hiding behind like a ruin, wall, fence, etc. If you're inside of area terrain or touching LOS-blocking terrain, then you get your cover save. However, if the only way you'd be getting cover is because something is obscuring you or a special rule, Impaler Cannons ignore this.

And no, being out of LOS DOES NOT miraculously grant you cover from Impaler Cannons like the one fellow keeps trying to argue. Honestly, they're only 24" range, shouldn't be too difficult to avoid.

Vehicles can only receive cover saves from Impaler Cannons if you satisfy three conditions:
1. You are in or touching a piece of terrain.
2. It lies between the Hive Guard and the vehicle.
3. That piece of terrain obscures 25% of the vehicle, ignoring all other terrain pieces.

Also, while you don't get cover saves from the Stealth or Shrouded special rules while in the open, if you would receive cover saves anyway (satisfying the three conditions above) they do add to the save.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Vehicles can only receive cover saves from Impaler Cannons if you satisfy three conditions:
1. You are in or touching a piece of terrain.
2. It lies between the Hive Guard and the vehicle.
3. That piece of terrain obscures 25% of the vehicle, ignoring all other terrain pieces.

Also, while you don't get cover saves from the Stealth or Shrouded special rules while in the open, if you would receive cover saves anyway (satisfying the three conditions above) they do add to the save.

This helps. Ok, so example #4 would not get a cover save because it would satisfy 2 and 3 but not 1,it is not touching the wall. If it is touching the wall, it would get a 5+ cover save, correct?

I thought area terrain did not provide a cover save to vehicles because they are so big, I do not have the rulebook in front of me so can't verify this. Could have swore I read this in the BRB though.

If area terrain does provide vehicle cover, would a tank in a forest receive cover save? It wouldn't necessarily be 25% obscured (ie, laying the tank on top of a green cloth you designate as forest) but it would be touching and would lie between Hive Guard and vehicle.

Area terrain only gives a cover save to vehicles if they are also 25% obscured.

So being in a forest and 25% obscured gives you a 5+ cover. Being in and not 25% obscured gives you no cover.


All that together is why only 1 and 2 in your example pic get a cover save.

This is easier if you figure out when regular models gets cover saves from impaler cannons.

Then add in the requirement for 25% covered for vehicles.

 Grey Templar wrote:
So being in a forest and 25% obscured gives you a 5+ cover. Being in and not 25% obscured gives you no cover.

Since I cannot see the facing, does that incur a -1 cover save? So does #1 and #2 get a 3++ cover save (4++ for being in Ruins and -1 for not being able to see the facing)?

 amrogers3 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
So being in a forest and 25% obscured gives you a 5+ cover. Being in and not 25% obscured gives you no cover.

Since I cannot see the facing, does that incur a -1 cover save? So does #1 and #2 get a 3++ cover save (4++ for being in Ruins and -1 for not being able to see the facing)?

Yes, it does increase the cover save by 1, but the guys in the ruin only recieve the 5+ save for being in area terrain.

If they were in base contact with a portion of the ruin walls(which is what gives the 4+ cover) thy would get the 4+ for the ruins.

both saves would be improved by 1 if the Hive Guard can't see the facing it is in. So 4+ if not in BtB with a ruin wall and a 3+ if it is in BtB.

This rule is very clear in tyranids faq.
U get cs only if you are in or touching it. And...impaler as well ignore jink.

Illurim, it might be very clear but it can be hard to interpid sometimes. Give him some slack. I think it is a rudamentory understanding of cover rules that is the cause not the impaler cannon.