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2013/03/14 02:06:13
Subject: 2500pts The New Bump-N-Grind Grab-Bag-o-Daemons vs Space Wolves
This is my first foray into the new daemons and I am really excited. This is what I call my Bump-N-Grind daemons. The bumps (dual-thirsters) are the 2 HQ's that I am thinking of running in my lists. The grind (dual-soulgrinders) is most likely going to be a mainstay in my regular daemon army. The rest of my army is just an experiment to see how the different units perform. Other than the Bump-N-Grind units, I avoided spamming any units and forced myself to try out units that I probably wouldn't run in my actual army. Also, I played at a 2500-pts in order to be able to try out more of the daemon units.
My opponent for the game, CJ, was the one to answer my call to arms. He brought out his Logan space wolves. I have never played against CJ before, but judging from his army, I believe that my opponent is not really a competitive player. He told me that he has been practicing against some of the guys in our LGS who were going to the BAO and that his wolves did alright against them. In any case, how competitive my opponent is isn't really all that important to me. This is just a game for me to get a feel for the new daemons.
I will later explain why I chose the units that I chose. My only stipulation was that I didn't want to proxy my units.
Bloodthirster - Greater Gift, Exalted Gift
Bloodthirster - Greater Gift, Exalted Gift
Herald of Tzeentch - Level 3 Psyker, Loci of Conjuration (+1 S to psychic shooting)
5x Beasts of Nurgle
5x Bloodcrusher - 1x Sergeant w/Lesser Gift
6x Fiends of Slaanesh
I'm excited to see the new Daemons in action! I'm very curious to see how Tzeentch Grinders work, it seems to me that Nurgle would almost always be better... Quite a nice mixed-god list though!
2013/03/14 04:25:56
Subject: Re:2500pts The New Bump-N-Grind Grab-Bag-o-Daemons vs Space Wolves
First of all, I'd like to give you a little more insight as to what I am trying to do with my daemons. I will start off my battle report with my....
Army Analysis: I think what I will be running in the future is Maximum Threat Overload daemons. As such, my future MTO daemons will have to be fast and hard hitting. What are the characteristics of a MTO army?
- They need to be fast. The tactics of a MTO build is to put a lot of pressure on your opponent and to make target prioritization a problem. If you throw just 1 or 2 fast, dangerous units at your opponent, then their target priority is very simple. Just shoot down those 1 or 2 units first and then focus on the next fastest units. However, if you throw 5-6 fast units at your opponent, then target priority becomes a much bigger problem for them. Thus, in a MTO assault list, you need to have multiple-fast-units (MFU, anyone?).
- Each unit needs to be about equal in threat status. That is what makes target prioritization hard. If you throw 9 fiends and 3 seekers at your opponent, target priority is quite easy. They need to deal with the much more dangerous fiends first. However, if you throw a Bloodthirster, 9 fiends and 20 seekers at your opponent, then your opponent is going to have a much tougher time deciding which unit to deal with first. Now some units may be more dangerous than others (i.e. your Bloodthirster would be more dangerous than a unit of 10 flesh hounds, for example). However, you can make target prioritization just as difficult by making 1 unit much harder to kill (i.e. swoop with your thirster and hide him in terrain to deny shooting from most of the enemy or dump some psychic buffs/greater + exalted gifts on him to make him much tougher to kill). In such a case, there is more incentive to go after the flesh hounds just because it would take an inefficient use of firepower to deal with the bloodthirster.
- The MFU units must be able to deal with different types of targets. That means your units must be able to take on infantry, hordes, mech and elite infantry. If not, then it makes target prioritization much easier. For example, if all you bring are bloodcrushers and you opponent is running several dreadnoughts, then it negates the threat of the bloodcrushers as they can't reliably handle the dreads (as a matter of fact, the dreads can insta-kill them and cause them to die via Daemonic Instability). Not all units in the daemon codex can handle everything so therefore, it is usually a better idea to have a variety of different units.
- You do not necessarily have to beat your opponent by killing their units. In an objectives-based scenario, MTO armies can win by a principle which I refer to as Positional Dominance. That is, you throw enough toys at your opponent to keep him distracted. Then you get into position to take objectives. Even if your opponent is able somehow to kill all your MFU units, he will by that time be grossly out of position to go after your objectives. This tactic works against most armies. Only a very few - other fast armies like Necron scythes, Eldar/Dark Eldar jetbike troops, outflanking armies, etc. - have the mobility to escape your MFU's. Otherwise, your goal is to box them into their own "corner", thus preventing them from going after objectives.
Bloodthirster: These are the main go-to guys in my list. They are a perfect mix of mobility and deadly combat prowess. For now, I am thinking of using these guys as fixtures in my competitive MTO daemon list. However, they are rather expensive and I may be forced to drop 1 at 1750 or less. You need to play the thirsters with a little finesse. March them directly towards your opponent and they will die. You need to protect them until Turn 2, when the rest of your army is ready to pounce.
Tzeentch Herald: I am mainly using him to test out the firepower of the Tzeentch troops. He is a force multiplier unit that makes a good pink horror unit great. He also gives you another solution versus flyer armies. Massed S6 shooting with Prescience can handle flyers.
Bloodcrushers: While their improved mobility is awesome, their lack of 3+ armor and the reduction to T4 makes them less resilient than before. Factor in their rather expensive cost and I don't really see them making the cut to my final list. However, I would still like to try them out.
Fiends of Slaanesh: This is probably my favorite Elite unit. I love the mobility of Slaaneshi daemons. Their costs are reasonable and although they've lost a little on the offense (-1 Attack), they have gotten more resilient with +1 Wound. I can definitely see this unit making the final cut to my MTO daemon army.
Beasts of Nurgle: On paper, this unit looks like a stud. They are fast. They hit hard with poisoned attacks. They are ultra-resilient with T5, 4W, It Will Not Die! and Shroud. Finally, they've got some nifty special rules - being able to charge in your opponent's assault phase and also negating your opponents charge bonuses. They are quite expensive, but I think we will definitely see a lot of these guys.
Bloodletters: While these guys are quite dangerous in assault, their lack of speed makes them a less-than-ideal candidate for my MTO daemons. It's going to be an uphill climb for them to make it into my competitive daemon army.
Daemonettes: I must admit, I love the daemonettes. They are quite dangerous, can deal with an assortment of enemy units thanks to their rending and are quite fast with Fleet and the ability to run an extra +3". Now with the bloodletters reduced to T3, the daemonettes are just as survivable as them. I think this is the perfect troop for my MTO daemons.
Pink Horrors: While not especially fast nor scary in assault, the horrors do fill a niche in my army. They provide some much needed shooting which can actually be quite dangerous. This therefore makes them a threat even though they are slow. Moreover, they can provide some anti-air firepower, though it would take a combination of horrors and the Tzeentch Herald to make this work. I can definitely see my balanced MTO list using one unit of these guys.
Plaguebearers: Every army needs a "grot" squad. My MTO army is no exception. A 10-man plaguebearer unit gives you a cheap and durable objective-holder that can reach any objective almost anywhere with their ability to deepstrike. Put the objective in cover and now you have a cheap unit with a 3+ cover save that can become a 2+ cover if they go-to-ground. I can see my army using either the plaguebearers or a unit of pink horrors as my "grot" squad.
Screamers: These guys are fast and cheap. They can threaten both vehicles and infantry. Although they aren't quite as scary as the previous edition's screamers, most people are still psychologically scared as heck about them. Seekers of Slaanesh would be my first choice for Fast Attack, but as I don't own any of the models, I am not going to use them in this game.
Soulgrinders: These are probably the only units that will be a permanent fixture in my lists. They can be fast if you give them the Mark of Slaanesh. But even though they are slow, they are still a threat. They are a threat to flyers with their skyfire shooting. They are a threat to infantry with their battle cannon blasts (their phlegm). And they are a threat in assault with their S10 dreadnought close combat weapons. I just love the flexibility of these guys. These guys are to the daemon codex as the heldrakes have become to the CSM codex. Moreover, these guys are damn tough to kill. 4 hull points, AV13, ability to ignore stunned and shaken results and a 5+ invuln (which you can re-roll 1's if you give them the Mark of Tzeentch) - the only chaos vehicle more resilient is probably the heldrake or land raiders. And these guys are cheap also! There are no better jack-of-all-trades daemon unit in the Heavy Support selections. These brutes can almost do it all.
I looked at my opponent's list and I just knew that he was going to be in for a thrashing, even against a hodge-podge army like my daemons. I believe he is mainly a Fantasy player first and a 40K player second. When I explained to him what Bolt of Tzeentch did, he was like, "oh, so it's a bolt thrower." Then while we were in combat, he was asking about Overkill adding to combat resolution. Lol. I'm not saying one can't adapt to the other, just that the rules differences between the two may lead to some bad strategies. In any case, I think my opponent is more of a casual player than a competitive one. Oh well, all will learn to fear my daemons.
He makes the mistake of advancing his thunderwolves just a little too far forwards. Somewhat uncharacteristic of a Fantasy player. Then again, he probably just doesn't realize how fast and far my units can go.
For his somewhat limited shooting, he does alright, killing 4 bloodletters, 1 fiend, 2 screamers and putting a couple of wounds on a couple of other models.
His lascannons actually hit and pens my soulgrinder. However, I fail my Invuln on a but because my grinders are Tzeentch, I get to re-roll the 1 and make my save the 2nd time.
Daemons 1
Spoiler:
Herald casts Prescience on his own unit. Both thirsters swoop forwards 24".
The rest of my army advances.
My right flank.
Nothing special happens with the Warpstorm.
Pink horrors fire at his TWC and kill 2 (the 2 storm shields!) as well as put 1W on another. Soulgrinder kills 2 grey hunters with its phlegm.
The other grinder (my right grinder) only manages to kill 1 plasma long fang with his pie plate.
The crushers then assault his rhino, blowing it up and killing 2 blood claws in the explosion. They also give me First Blood.
Daemons: 1, Space Wolves: 0
Finally, both my fiends and beasts of Nurgle make it into combat with his thunderwolves.
My opponent does really well with his saves and end up losing only 2 thunderwolves.
Space Wolves 2
Spoiler:
Logan and friends come out to play.
His infantry moves.
The dread and blood claws shoot down 1 and put a couple of wounds on 2 other crushers.
Shooting by the other dread, the long fangs and the LRC kills 2 bloodletters and takes off 2 HP's from the grinder....
Left grey hunters kill 2 screamers.
Middle grey hunters kill 2 daemonettes.
Then it's off to the mega-combat we go.
His dread charges my helpless crushers. Fortunately for the crushers, the dread whiffs completely. The crushers are unable to harm it in return.
Note - Walkers can lock down many of the daemonic units. However, because they are not fearless, I believe technically, your units can fall back from the combat with the dread if they cannot hurt it.
The wolves win combat by quite a bit as I am unable to finish off his thunderwolf. Fortunately for me, I roll low for Daemonic Instability for both units (I believe I roll 5's for the LD test for both my fiends and beasts). The result of combat, after Daemonic Instability, is 2 dead fiends, 3 dead beasts and a several wounds throughout. On the space wolf side, he loses 2 wolfguards and Logan takes 1W.
Note - As a daemon player, you have to be careful when you do any type of multi-charge. If you lose combat, Daemonic Instability can potentially wipe out your multiple units involved in the multi-charge!
Daemons 2
Spoiler:
The screamers flee (turbo-boost away) to deny my opponent a Victory Point.
Daemons advance.
My Warlord prepares to assault his hunters.
The other "Bump" (the thirster) goes to bail out the crushers. My grinder goes after his dread.
In the beginning of my Shooting Phase, Warpstorm strikes and turns his Rune Priest into a Herald of Tzeentch!!!
Daemons: 2, Space Wolves: 0
Pink horrors only shoot down 2 hunters (his other Rune Priest nullifies the horror shooting and Prescience, only the Herald was able to shoot...I also only rolled 2D6 for shots instead of 3D6 for having 2 warp charges). My Warlord shoots down 1 hunter.
The thirster then assault and kill 5. He also takes 2W from Overwatch on the way in! In any case, the thirster wins and catches them in a sweeping advance but because of ATSKNF, his hunters just remain locked in combat instead.
The other thirster joins in the battle. Too bad this is not the thirster with armourbane so I have to resort to Smashing. I take off 2 HP's and immobilize his dread. He whiffs against my crushers with only 1 attack.
The grinder charges and takes off 2 HP' from his dread, stunning it as well. His dread whiffs against my grinder.
The other grinder make it into combat as well. I still cannot kill his thunderwolf, though I believe the grinder puts another 2W on Logan himself. However, space wolves win combat and wipe out the beasts of Nurgle after Daemonic Instability.
Daemons: 2, Space Wolves: 1
Space Wolves 3
Spoiler:
His blood claws go after the crushers.
This can be very dangerous for my daemons. If his blood claws can do enough damage to my crushers in assault, they could potentially wipe out my thirster as well (via Daemonic Instability) without even having to fight him!
Hunters move away. His LRC prepares to shoot my daemonettes.
1 lascannon from his long fangs split fire and insta-gibs my Herald.
Daemons: 2, Space Wolves: 2
A combination of his hunters and LRC take down 10 daemonettes!
I have nothing to worry about as I win combat easily, taking out his dread and 5 blood claws after they whiff big time in combat. They do, however, manage to kill 1 crusher.
My thirster, because he cannot pile into combat, consolidates instead.
Daemons: 3, Space Wolves: 2
The grinder takes 1 HP of damage from his stunned dread before reducing it to scrap metal.
Daemons: 4, Space Wolves: 2
My Warlord finish off the hunters.
Daemons: 5, Space Wolves: 2
Finally, the wolves wipe out my fiends. My grinder takes out 1 wolf guard via Look-Out-Sir from Logan.
His TWC then consolidate out of combat due to not being able to pile-in to my grinder.
Daemons: 5, Space Wolves: 3
Daemons 3
Spoiler:
The plagues come in. I give his long fangs and hunters an opportunity to get a VP by deepstriking into his deployment zone.
The beginning of the end. Thirsters go after his long fangs and grey hunters. Soulgrinder after his LRC.
Daemonettes and pink horrors advance. Bloodletters are not needed and so they hide.
Thirster shoots down 1 long fang.
Horrors easily shoot down his lone TWC.
Daemons: 6, Space Wolves: 3
My almighty thirster fails his charge through terrain.
As a matter of fact, both of them fail their charges.
But not the grinder. Daemonettes also make the charge against his wolf guards.
Crushers whiff badly and only kill 1 blood claw.
My grinder takes off 3 HP's from the LRC and immobilize it as well.
In combat, I wipe out the wolf guards and his librarian, only losing 2 daemonettes. The grinder cannot pile into combat so is free to do as he pleases next turn.
Daemons: 8, Space Wolves: 3
Space Wolves 4
Spoiler:
Overview of what will most likely be the last turn. If my opponent survives this turn, there is no need to go on.
Hunters go for the glory...after my Warlord.
A combinaton of shooting from the hunters, my LRC and the long fangs manage to kill my Warlord on the ground.
However, he isn't really dead due to his exalted gift - Warp Tether!
The LRC uses its multi-melta to finally kill off the soulgrinder.
Daemons: 8, Space Wolves: 4
My crushers finish off his blood claw.
Daemons: 9, Space Wolves: 4
Finally, Logan finishes off the daemonettes with combat and then Daemonic Instability.
Daemons: 9, Space Wolves: 5
That was actually a really good turn for the wolves.
Daemons 4
Spoiler:
My Warlord comes back into play with just 1W remaining thanks to his Exalted Gift, Warp Tether.
I go in for the kill.
Plague bearers go after his hunters.
Pink Horrors shoot down Logan. Poor bastard....never really stood a chance.
Daemons: 10, Space Wolves: 5
Again, nothing eventful for Warpstorm.
My grinder fires his large blast at the LRC. It would scatter and land directly on his hunters. Only 1 hunter survives.
Then it's off to assault we go.
My thirster wipes out his long fangs.
Daemons: 11, Space Wolves: 5
Plagues kill off his last hunter and the grinder finishes off the LRC.
My opponent is tabled.
Complete Annihilation by Chaos Daemons!!!
This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2013/03/16 14:56:23
jifel wrote: I'm excited to see the new Daemons in action! I'm very curious to see how Tzeentch Grinders work, it seems to me that Nurgle would almost always be better... Quite a nice mixed-god list though!
I love the grinders. I think they are going to be a staple of any balanced daemon army. They are just so flexible.
BTW, don't go Nurgle for them. You want your opponents to waste their firepower on the grinders rather than on the rest of your army. Giving them Mark of Nurgle will only discourage your opponent from shooting at them. I actually like Slaanesh grinders the most for the speed. However, if points is an issue, go Tzeentch or even Khorne.
Wow, that is...not very many models for 2,500 points!
Very much looking forward to reading this report.
Well, it isn't supposed to be a horde army. This army is supposed to be a testbed for the various fast daemon units, most of which are quite expensive (bloodthirsters, bloodcrushers and beasts of Nurgle). I may go for a horde daemon build in the future, but I am also currently limited by the models that I have.
It definitely sounds like you'll be looking to use a lot of Slaanesh for the MTO principle, I've been following with interest the new Daemons and looking for batreps everywhere to see how they go.
It looks like Tzeentch heralds and horrors for a solid shooting baseline (used beautifully in this report ) and mostly slaanesh with a few bloodthirsters for speedy death seems like the 'go to' options, but it'll be interesting to see how the meta turns out. I for one love the random charts, they don't seem any more unbalanced for a mid-sized game than the rewards system in the CSM codex, and are very, very Chaotic.
I could imagine in 1k or less they might be too unbalancing, but that's exactly the kind of silly game I like on that scale
Run a whole lot of wfrp and other rpg's, play The Woods and Kill Team, gather and look mournfully at imperial guard knowing I'll never finish enough to use them on the tabletop
2013/03/14 14:09:08
Subject: 2500pts The New Bump-N-Grind Grab-Bag-o-Daemons vs Space Wolves
- Bloodthirsters: what exalted gift are you going to use ? tried to figure out what would be best and ended up going for double major gift.
- BT again: I'm hesitating; BT or LoC (with mijor + double major gift) ? the LoC goes up to S8 with the minor gift weapon which makes him quite interesting.
Also can hunt flyers a bit more effectively than BT.
- No herald of Slaanesh ? The challenge loci seems quite powerful to me and you have a big unit of daemonettes to go with.
- Why Tz grinders ? Nurgle seems so much better...(depends on the tables you're playing on though)
Overall, If I were to try such a list, i would probably go with a FMC spam; I'm not impressed by the elite slots of the codex...
waiting for the report; will probably be interesting !
2013/03/14 16:20:43
Subject: 2500pts The New Bump-N-Grind Grab-Bag-o-Daemons vs Space Wolves
Captain Roderick wrote: It definitely sounds like you'll be looking to use a lot of Slaanesh for the MTO principle, I've been following with interest the new Daemons and looking for batreps everywhere to see how they go.
It looks like Tzeentch heralds and horrors for a solid shooting baseline (used beautifully in this report ) and mostly slaanesh with a few bloodthirsters for speedy death seems like the 'go to' options, but it'll be interesting to see how the meta turns out. I for one love the random charts, they don't seem any more unbalanced for a mid-sized game than the rewards system in the CSM codex, and are very, very Chaotic.
I could imagine in 1k or less they might be too unbalancing, but that's exactly the kind of silly game I like on that scale
Yeah, I like Slaanesh for its speed. Both Khorne and Slaanesh have dangerous troops. However, Slaanesh has the faster troops, so they get the edge against the bloodletters.
I really like the Tzeentch Herald with pink horrors as well. The trick is how to fit them into my army and to still maximize on the number of fast threats. At 2500, it is no problem but when you scale down (to say 1750 or even 1500), it becomes more of an issue. The bloodthirsters share this same issue. You can easily fit 2 in at 2500, but when you scale down to 1750 and especially at 1500, they actually unbalance your list. They take up a good chunk of your points, thus allowing you less points to build a balanced army. At 1750, I may just have to let one of my BT's go.
Right now it's too early to see where the competitive meta will go, but 2 units I think you will find in future daemon armies will be Seekers of Slaanesh and Soulgrinders.
- Bloodthirsters: what exalted gift are you going to use ? tried to figure out what would be best and ended up going for double major gift.
- BT again: I'm hesitating; BT or LoC (with mijor + double major gift) ? the LoC goes up to S8 with the minor gift weapon which makes him quite interesting.
Also can hunt flyers a bit more effectively than BT.
- No herald of Slaanesh ? The challenge loci seems quite powerful to me and you have a big unit of daemonettes to go with.
- Why Tz grinders ? Nurgle seems so much better...(depends on the tables you're playing on though)
Overall, If I were to try such a list, i would probably go with a FMC spam; I'm not impressed by the elite slots of the codex...
waiting for the report; will probably be interesting !
That's fine. This is not a list that I am pushing. Rather, it is a list for me to just get a feel of the different units in the codex.
For the BT's, exalted gifts are awesome. In this game, I got Warp Tether and the gain-1W-on-a-2+ gifts, both of which are really useful. However, if you don't like them, trade for the Grimoire to try to give your BT a 3++ invuln. Then if you happen to get the Greater gift that allows him to re-roll invuln's, he becomes quite resilient. I think overall, both Exalted and Greater Gifts are both really good.
The LoC definitely looks like a good unit. I may give him a try in a future daemon list. I'm also looking to give Fateweaver a go as well.
I really don't see the need for a Herald of Slaanesh. I want to keep my troops cheap because the good, fast units are in the Elites and Fast Attacks. The Herald only takes away from that. The only Herald I will consider is Tzeentch. I think he is worth it for the boost to the Pink Horrors.
I am against Nurgle grinders. People look at Nurgle and they think, "Oh, shrouding on my grinders....awesome!" But in my MTO build, I want you to shoot at my grinder as opposed to my other fast & deadly units. You make him too hard to kill (i.e. Shrouded) and your opponents won't shoot at him. Thus, I'd rather leave him with Khorne or the very cheap Tzeentch marks.
FMC-spam is not a viable competitive build IMO. They are just too expensive and no where near as resilient as 5th Ed. daemons with Fateweaver. You will be lacking in troops if you go with FMC-spam.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/14 16:22:30
Thank you for the quick response/input,
I did not mean to be offensive on the list; I understood that it was a test list.
I agree on the lack of troops; though 5 FMC rushing fowards draws attention from plaguebearers lurking in backfield and horrors which remain at a reasonable distance.
Makes sense on the grinders; I did not consider it this way.
It will be interesting to see how crushers perform; mines are about to shift to a WoC army unless I find them some good use.
2013/03/14 17:12:27
Subject: 2500pts The New Bump-N-Grind Grab-Bag-o-Daemons vs Space Wolves
Hmm. What is up with that SW list? I anticipate a crushing victory for jy2.
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2013/03/14 17:19:55
Subject: 2500pts The New Bump-N-Grind Grab-Bag-o-Daemons vs Space Wolves
jy2 wrote:Their costs are reasonable and although they've lost a little on the offense (-1 Attack), they have gotten more resilient with +1 Wound. I can definitely see this unit making the final cut to my MTO daemon army.
I like the new Fiends quite a bit myself, but don't understate what they've lost! It's -2A, -1S, and -Hit & Run (boooo!) Fiends' once-impressive damage output has been cut almost in half (for +5pts). So now, they're basically 6-legged assault grenades...but hey, that's pretty neat too. My thinking is that they'll be better off as one or two small (3-4 man) units rather than the expensive 6-man unit you've got here. Besides keeping their cost down, a smaller footprint keeps the Fiends maneuverable and prevents them from blocking your own infantry/cavalry units off in an assault. Since Fiends aren't really killers by themselves, what I think you're really paying for is that -5I that allows your other units to get to work. 105-140pts still seems a bit steep for a few S4 rending hits and pseudo assault grenades, but with Daemonic Instability combat resolution is the name of the game. Daemons need to win that first round of combat and Fiends should help a lot there.
Strongly agree with the Tzeentch Soulgrinders. Besides not wanting to make them an impossible target, you're going to want Grinders moving up, presenting a shooting and assault threat to everything on the table. They can't do that so well while hiding in a ruin or behind an Aegis. When you've got AV13, 4HP, 5++ there isn't a whole lot of shooting worth hiding from anyway. So I say save 10 pts, reroll 1's, and enjoy not constantly having to argue whether this or that actually covers 25% of your Soulgrinder.
Looking forward to the batrep. I'm really curious to see how those Beasts of Nurgle work out. Attention Seeker/being nearly unkillable makes them a very interesting unit, but I have a hard time getting excited about their damage output. To me they seem too weak to be a counter-assault unit and too pricey to be a tarpit...very interested to see how you plan to use them!
2013/03/14 21:53:33
Subject: Re:2500pts The New Bump-N-Grind Grab-Bag-o-Daemons vs Space Wolves
Well, since you have each god represented it will be interesting to see what impact the warp storm table has on you.
It looks the the early lists are going in 2 directions, one with massed FMC, and the other Slaanesh horde so it will be interesting to see what the skittle army does.
2013/03/14 22:24:14
Subject: Re:2500pts The New Bump-N-Grind Grab-Bag-o-Daemons vs Space Wolves
Blackmoor wrote: Well, since you have each god represented it will be interesting to see what impact the warp storm table has on you.
It looks the the early lists are going in 2 directions, one with massed FMC, and the other Slaanesh horde so it will be interesting to see what the skittle army does.
I think that while in any particular game the Warp Storm table can theoretically deal crippling damage to a skittles CD army, the reality is that on average it shouldn't. Given that, first off, you have about a 45% percent chance each turn of NOT rolling a 5,6,8 or 9 for your Warp Storm roll, and then if you do roll one of those results you're only rolling to affect (in this particular army) at most 5 units on a roll of a '6', it shouldn't happen that often. And with two of those results YOU get to place the big blast centered over a model in your unit, so as long as you keep your guys spread out, you should be able to seriously minimize the damage of those results should they occur (and not scatter).
Funnily enough, since the results that attack Tzeentch and Khorne are on the 6 & 8 results (and those are also the attacks that don't use a blast too), those are the two types of Daemons you would want to avoid having for this reason (and are the two types he actually has the MOST of in this force, with 4 for Khorne and 5 for Tzeentch). Of course, 2 of those Tzeentch units are Soulgrinders, who cannot possibly be damaged by the S4 poisoned attacks of the '6' result anyway.
Whereas for the opponent's army, you're rolling for EVERY unit on any of those results...so from my thinking I don't think worrying about the Warp Storm table even with a skittles Daemon army should be a real consideration and certainly not worth taking an instrument of Chaos about (unless you want the Deep Strike reserve bonus anyway).
I think the reserve bonus is more useful on an instrument than the Warp Storm result.
I also completely agree on the likely damage from a Warp Storm - you could lose a bunch of models but the odds of rolling up 3 or 4 6's on the table are less than half a percent. That said, the odds to grab at least one six are about 50%
Edit: I agree on the grinders - now they can start on the table and their Phlegm has become Ordinance they are - rightfully - terrifying. The fact that you can Deep Strike them too is just gravy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/14 22:47:36
The instrument reroll seems unnecessary, right up until the time your Warlord would take a Khornate boot to the head without it. But yes, the Reserves-manipulation is far more interesting on a regular basis.
I, too, am looking forward to this game. Jim & I have some slightly divergent opinions on some of the Daemons, but in these early days, it's all about gaining experience through practice.
Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes?
2013/03/14 23:04:47
Subject: Re:2500pts The New Bump-N-Grind Grab-Bag-o-Daemons vs Space Wolves
I was just trying to get a handle on how much CD units actually cost (points-wise), so I was working through this army myself. I suck at math, so I may be totally off, but I'm coming up with a grand total of 2,513 points for this army.
Was this just kind of a loosey-goosey test game where you guys were okay going over a few points, or did I (or you) screw up the math?
Also, how the hell is anyone supposed to run WYSIWYG with Daemons? Some of those reward rolls are going to end up giving your model an additional weapon and other results are clearly unmodelable (made up that word). Are you really supposed to run around with a magnetized weapon for each model taking a reward roll just in case? Its preposterous!
Yeah, I like Slaanesh for its speed. Both Khorne and Slaanesh have dangerous troops. However, Slaanesh has the faster troops, so they get the edge against the bloodletters.
I really like the Tzeentch Herald with pink horrors as well. The trick is how to fit them into my army and to still maximize on the number of fast threats. At 2500, it is no problem but when you scale down (to say 1750 or even 1500), it becomes more of an issue. The bloodthirsters share this same issue. You can easily fit 2 in at 2500, but when you scale down to 1750 and especially at 1500, they actually unbalance your list. They take up a good chunk of your points, thus allowing you less points to build a balanced army. At 1750, I may just have to let one of my BT's go.
Right now it's too early to see where the competitive meta will go, but 2 units I think you will find in future daemon armies will be Seekers of Slaanesh and Soulgrinders.
Yeah you're probably right on the Soul Grinder/Seekers focus, I mean, what's not to like with either unit? As for the scaling down, I got a strong feeling just from people reviewing the codex, that people would be leaning towards 1 Greater Daemon, a couple of heralds in the other HQ slot, troops to compliment the heralds (or vice versa), and the rest as you so choose. It seems to be built in such a way that a 'pyramid scheme' is the most balanced and effective way to run things, especially at normal game levels (1500-1999), and I suppose it's quite nice that you're steered towards being relatively fluffy to make your army effective - you've got senior management, middle management, proles and consultants.
Certainly, it doesn't feel like this book has any glaring 'dual lash' formulas screaming to be used, and minmaxing doesn't seem on the cards yet. While I know you'll miss your bloodthirsters/dual flyrants, there's so many other options and synergies to compensate. I think it's a good thing that the army will play differently from the nids, and screaming, gibbering hordes of daemons with multi-layered subtle synergies, none of which is overpowering, actually seems pretty sweet.
Plus, you know, it's a frikkin Bloodthirster. They should be the most terrifying thing on the field; bringing two in a mid-sized game does feel a little wrong, and if your army works better when you've only got the one, well, hey, the army works better.
/possibly had some beer
Anyway looking forward to the rep!
Run a whole lot of wfrp and other rpg's, play The Woods and Kill Team, gather and look mournfully at imperial guard knowing I'll never finish enough to use them on the tabletop
2013/03/14 23:54:46
Subject: 2500pts The New Bump-N-Grind Grab-Bag-o-Daemons vs Space Wolves
I was just trying to get a handle on how much CD units actually cost (points-wise), so I was working through this army myself. I suck at math, so I may be totally off, but I'm coming up with a grand total of 2,513 points for this army.
Was this just kind of a loosey-goosey test game where you guys were okay going over a few points, or did I (or you) screw up the math?
Also, how the hell is anyone supposed to run WYSIWYG with Daemons? Some of those reward rolls are going to end up giving your model an additional weapon and other results are clearly unmodelable (made up that word). Are you really supposed to run around with a magnetized weapon for each model taking a reward roll just in case? Its preposterous!
Let's see my math:
Bloodthirster - Greater Gift, Exalted Gift - 300
Bloodthirster - Greater Gift, Exalted Gift - 300
Herald of Tzeentch - Level 3 Psyker, Loci of Conjuration (+1 S to psychic shooting) - 120
5x Beasts of Nurgle - 260
5x Bloodcrusher - 1x Sergeant w/Lesser Gift - 240
6x Fiends of Slaanesh - 210
Whoops! You are right. It was bad math on my part. The Herald was a last minute addition and I had to drop some other stuff to fit him in. I guess I messed up with the recalculations.
I think for the randomly generated wargear, it's ok for it not to be WYSIWYG because you don't know if you will be getting it or not. As long as you roll in front of your opponent and let him know what you got. It just doesn't make sense that you have to model a wargear on a mini that you don't even know if you are going to get or not.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/15 00:02:01
I plan to throw together a spreadsheet to mark up psychic powers, and gifts for heralds.
I am interested to see what you reserve - I think the ability to deep strike some units that normally cannot is a huge boon - protecting them for a turn from enemy fire. It also provides some interesting flexibility when deep striking.
One unit that I am not quite sold on are the Beasts of Nurgle - they are much improved but the are not actually as fast as they seem since they cannot run. I know they are tough and in 5+ cover have some huge benefits with shroud but I can almost see a CSM squad holding them up.
I am not sold on Thirsters - I do not think they do enough on their own but with the Artifacts from the Exalted Rewards I could be mistaken. I would rather see a GUO with 3x Biomancy in that slot I think.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/15 00:10:11
Now that you mention it, Beasts of Nurgle seem like an excellent candidate to Deep Strike because of the fact that they can't run and they have that free charge ability.
So you put them in reserve and then drop them near one of your units that is fairly close to the enemy but potentially vulnerable to being charged themselves and now all of a sudden not only do you dissuade the enemy from assaulting your other unit, but your Beasts are now definitely going to be set up for a charge in their next turn as well.
Before you dismiss the blood crushers, I suggest trying to hit them with the Grimoire of True Names for a 3++ on a 3+ die roll. Move up 12" than run. Turn2, DS a 20man letter squad who also brings a 20man letter sqaud in with the instrument.
Run Letters
Assault with crushers
???
Profit.
^It won't always work out this way but you save 40 letters from bullets for a turn while still getting them very far upfield without a scatter, and increase the durability of the "weak" crushers. It can be devestating to see this crash into the enemy ranks.
I need to return some video tapes. Skulls for the Skull Throne
2013/03/15 13:04:01
Subject: Re:2500pts The New Bump-N-Grind Grab-Bag-o-Daemons vs Space Wolves
Goat wrote:Before you dismiss the blood crushers, I suggest trying to hit them with the Grimoire of True Names for a 3++ on a 3+ die roll.
Better yet, hit them with Forewarning from your Tz. Herald, then Grimoire for a 2++. Even if Grimoire goes off backward, at least you're back where you started with a 5++!
2013/03/15 15:51:27
Subject: Re:2500pts The New Bump-N-Grind Grab-Bag-o-Daemons vs Space Wolves
Now that you mention it, Beasts of Nurgle seem like an excellent candidate to Deep Strike because of the fact that they can't run and they have that free charge ability.
So you put them in reserve and then drop them near one of your units that is fairly close to the enemy but potentially vulnerable to being charged themselves and now all of a sudden not only do you dissuade the enemy from assaulting your other unit, but your Beasts are now definitely going to be set up for a charge in their next turn as well.
This brings up an interesting point - I think determining how to adjust what you deep strike against opponents is going to be a huge differentiating factor between average-good-outstanding daemon players.
I also completely agree on Deep Striking the beasts - this is the only reason overall I can see to take a Icon on the Plague Drones.
The more I think about it, I think the Beasts might be a bit of a trap. While the bonus charge is nice - as is Slime Trail, if they are trying to protect a more vulnerable unit and I was playing against Daemons my instinct is going to be annihilate the other unit in CC, force a huge instability check and not worry about T5 as those wounds just get ripped way into the warp.
The thing that annoys me about Deep Striking Nurgle units is the inability to run after arriving. Now that Eternal Warrior is gone, I worry about getting pasted by Str:8 blasts. I suppose with the Beasts it'll need to be Str:10, but those are out there. I would be really annoyed to lose a whole squad to that.
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2013/03/15 17:24:02
Subject: 2500pts The New Bump-N-Grind Grab-Bag-o-Daemons vs Space Wolves
The Grimoire will be key in competitve builds, offensively and defensively.
You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things
And we shall do so again.
4500 pts
2013/03/15 17:49:59
Subject: 2500pts The New Bump-N-Grind Grab-Bag-o-Daemons vs Space Wolves
Valek wrote: The Grimoire will be key in competitve builds, offensively and defensively.
I agree. I'm going to try to make Fateweaver work with it, with the ability to reroll the 3+ to grant the bonus. He'll have a rerollable 2++ if it works. You use it in the movement phase, so depending on if it goes off or not, I can then move Kairos to take advantage or hide for a turn.
The first time I tried this I put the Grimoire on a DP, which my son shot out of the sky in one turn with his dual Flyrants (these are a massive PITA, by the way). I'm going to start putting it on a Herald of Nurgle for my next game and hide them in a ruin close to the center of the board.
I loved the old Fateweaver, and I want to give the new one a few chances to earn a spot in my lists.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/15 17:50:27
Check out my list building app for 40K and Fantasy:
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2013/03/15 18:18:58
Subject: Re:2500pts The New Bump-N-Grind Grab-Bag-o-Daemons vs Space Wolves
calypso2ts wrote: I also completely agree on Deep Striking the beasts - this is the only reason overall I can see to take a Icon on the Plague Drones.
Only reason? What about dropping the GUO with pin-point accuracy right on top of the enemy deployment zone on turn 2? He's hard to ignore.
Evolution of strategy will be interesting. I think I'm going to have to start playing with a few min-sized Troops choices (of appropriate god) w/Musicians in any list where I expect to Deep Strike - essentially, it gives you 2 chances to make your Reserves roll for the unit you want to arrive.
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
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but because my grinders are Tzeentch, I get to re-roll the 1 and make my save the 2nd time. 
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