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I've been playing 40k since just after the Blood Angel codex release in 5th, so not long by any means. However, with my Angels, I went full Assualt Marines, and I had a whole load of fun and success with this in 5th, in 6th it got harder, and harder and then just terrible. Is it time for us Blood Angels to give up on the idea of using Assualt Marines as our core troops? Time for the tactical squad to have their day? What do you guys think, have you found a way to get ASM's to work this Ed? How?

I've not used them in the 6th yet - mainly been playing orks and CSM, not used my normal ones. I think you're probably right about their inclusion as a core troop choice but I still think they have their uses. Most of the disadvantages in the 6th come from overwatch which isn't that effective vs 3+ saves; plus they get a buff with the hammer of wrath attacks, which would cause headaches for genesteelers, eldar and other smallish unit with high iniative. They also remain a good way of taking a few meltaguns in a small unit for taking on armour.

Summary,
Have their uses in a supporting role. No great for a core troop choice.

I was using them in rhinos back before the FAQ completely F'ed that tactic.
Have moved away from my blood angels for a while to concentrate on my eldar and tau but am thinking of trying something different with them soon, thinking I have 30 of em along with priests and such and just hoarding them!

Or taking just the bear minimum of 10 in 2 squads of 5 and maximising everything else. Just a case of play testing different things they are no where near as good as they used to be, just need to find the right configuration.

They're less killy, sure, but scoring jump pack units are still really useful late game in grabbing objectives.

 Compel wrote:
They're less killy, sure, but scoring jump pack units are still really useful late game in grabbing objectives.

It's all well and good saying they are useful grabbing an objective late game, but you need them to be around late game. For them to be of any use up untill that point they need to assualt, at which, they are just not that great anymore. They sure as hell don't have the firepower to stand around shooting things. I think the biggest hurt for them was the removal off +1 initiative to Furious Charge

Yeah... And BA assault marines are still way better than vanilla ones...

I still use Blood Angels Assault Marines to great effect.

If you want something that might be a little more resilient, consider assault marines with transports.

Think about this: BA tacs must be ten man squads and may have a heavy and a special weapon.

BA Assault marines may have a single special weapon at 5 and another at 10. They can also charge to greater effect, getting a further 8 attacks on tactical marines at the cost of medium and long range firepower. This doesn't matter too much, when you can close in with your rhino and shoot meltas with the AV11 hull protecting you. If you really want, combat squad them, have 2 meltaguns and a sergeant go forward in your Rhino and shoot at armour or monsters while your 5-man holds an objective.

Eldercaveman wrote:

 Compel wrote:
They're less killy, sure, but scoring jump pack units are still really useful late game in grabbing objectives.

It's all well and good saying they are useful grabbing an objective late game, but you need them to be around late game. For them to be of any use up untill that point they need to assualt, at which, they are just not that great anymore. They sure as hell don't have the firepower to stand around shooting things. I think the biggest hurt for them was the removal off +1 initiative to Furious Charge

Totally agreed, when I first saw that FC didn't give +1I anymore I knew that BA Assault Marines were in for a world of hurt now. Assault Marines suffer from being an assault-based troop which is really only mediocre in assault, so they're really going to struggle vs an army with decent assault capability (Termie units, Grey Hunters, Daemons especially, etc). The easiest way to Assault Marines to counteract this is probably through weight of numbers or by whittling enemies down with Baals (whilst hiding behind the Baals for cover) before going in for the kill, but I'm not entirely sure.

I like 5 man assault units with a flamer and two hand flamers on the sergeant. Great for killing Eldar or Tau, anything that's t3 and likes to hide in cover. They are cheap too. But don't expect much else from them. I run one 10 man uninwith two meltaguns and a SS /LC on the sergeant. His job is to tie up HQ units. He held eldrad up for 3 turns once.

Hammer of wrath, St 5 on the charge ... what's not to love

 Spyral wrote:
Hammer of wrath, St 5 on the charge ... what's not to love

Good luck getting Hammer of Wrath, I play against Blood Angels quite frequently and I've been hit by it... maybe 3 times, ever?

Hammer of Wrath is not worth it in most cases. You sacrifice 6'' of movement for the Hammer of Wrath attacks and they just don't cut it.

When it comes to the 6 full ten man, DoA squads like I use to run, sadly the answer is yes. 6th seems specifically built to screw over pure assault armies like BA with the furious charge and FNP nerfs Sgt sniping, and overwatch. And now all marines get the Stormraven, which means we lost out biggest ace in the hole! The sad thing is other assault armies got buffed in other ways (nids with psychic powers, flying MCs and rage, Orks with overwatch, daemons now being semi-hordy). BA have received no such bonuses...

I still find them useful, I tend to run 10 man squads with 2 of the same special weapon and a priest. Lately I've combat squading the unit but running them next to each other (almost as one unit) this way if you get charged your opponent either has to do a dis-organised charge (or what ever it'scalled) and sacrifie his additional attacks or face the other half the unit charging in with FC in your turn.

It seems to work quite well as people have so far focused on the priests unit for shooting and charging meaning a full combat squad have been able to join the assault with all the buffs.

Obviously it doesn't solve the problems of the unit, but I've found them to be more efficient this way.

D

They can grab 2 small arms weapons in one unit. That has got to be worth something. Combat squad them and hide one unit behind a transport and the other one as a late game objective grabber? Also, decent of angels is almost as good as a drop pod. Just cheaper.

 Niiai wrote:
They can grab 2 small arms weapons in one unit. That has got to be worth something. Combat squad them and hide one unit behind a transport and the other one as a late game objective grabber? Also, decent of angels is almost as good as a drop pod. Just cheaper.

DoA USED to be as good as a drop pod, but with the new reserve rules at least half of your assault guys must be on the board at the start, meaning they'll spend at least one turn getting all shot to hell waiting for the rest to show up....

The only worthwhile use is in the BA codex. That's a 5 man unit with a melta and a combi-melta on the sergeant. They're pinpoint anti-tank.

I suppose the same could be achieved with flamer/combi-flamer but the points you spend killing a unit that's vulnerable to flamers isn't likely to be near the points your opponent spent on that unit.

Use them to tie up units that aren't dedicated CC and you won't be disappointed.

I think the OP should clarify in his title that he's talking about BA assault marines, not vanilla, which have always been all kinds of useless as far back as I can see...

If you want razorback spam, assault squads get you the transport for less points, with a meltagun, and you're a fast transport.

Codex marines get a razorback with 5 tactical marines for 165 (las/plas razorback).
Blood angels get 5 assault marines with a melta gun, and a fast razorback for 165 (las/plas)
Space Wolves get the las/plas razorback and meltagun for 155.

So for a razorspam, if you want fast razorbacks for 10 points, go blood angel, otherwise go spacewolf.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
If you want razorback spam, assault squads get you the transport for less points, with a meltagun, and you're a fast transport.

Codex marines get a razorback with 5 tactical marines for 165 (las/plas razorback).
Blood angels get 5 assault marines with a melta gun, and a fast razorback for 165 (las/plas)
Space Wolves get the las/plas razorback and meltagun for 155.

So for a razorspam, if you want fast razorbacks for 10 points, go blood angel, otherwise go spacewolf.

-Matt

This can even be expanded for a solid mech list with the up to eight armor 13 vehicles you can take as well, 6 of which are also fast. It it beat aircrons, probably not, but will it do a number to most thinks? I think so.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
When it comes to the 6 full ten man, DoA squads like I use to run, sadly the answer is yes. 6th seems specifically built to screw over pure assault armies like BA with the furious charge and FNP nerfs Sgt sniping, and overwatch. And now all marines get the Stormraven, which means we lost out biggest ace in the hole! The sad thing is other assault armies got buffed in other ways (nids with psychic powers, flying MCs and rage, Orks with overwatch, daemons now being semi-hordy). BA have received no such bonuses...

Honestly BA Assault Marines weren't that great as assault units even in 5th, the +1I for Furious Charge made it so they got the alpha strike vs MEQ though, minimizing losses. In 6th though, their mediocre assault capability really has come to the fore and they're relying on their armour + FNP to mitigate losses.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
When it comes to the 6 full ten man, DoA squads like I use to run, sadly the answer is yes. 6th seems specifically built to screw over pure assault armies like BA with the furious charge and FNP nerfs Sgt sniping, and overwatch. And now all marines get the Stormraven, which means we lost out biggest ace in the hole! The sad thing is other assault armies got buffed in other ways (nids with psychic powers, flying MCs and rage, Orks with overwatch, daemons now being semi-hordy). BA have received no such bonuses...

Honestly BA Assault Marines weren't that great as assault units even in 5th, the +1I for Furious Charge made it so they got the alpha strike vs MEQ though, minimizing losses. In 6th though, their mediocre assault capability really has come to the fore and they're relying on their armour + FNP to mitigate losses.

True it wasn't their assault skills that made them great in 5th (though it was still far better than any non-dedicated assault units). It was DoA + starting the whole army in reserve + being able to take 2 meltaguns that made them so dangerous. DoA were never a good as Razorspam, even in 5th, but playing pure DoA (no vehicles) meant not only was your opponent's anti-vehicle weapons now useless, he had to be EXTREMELY careful where he put his vehicles, and even then, he was going to lose at least a couple once the Assault squads dropped in.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
When it comes to the 6 full ten man, DoA squads like I use to run, sadly the answer is yes. 6th seems specifically built to screw over pure assault armies like BA with the furious charge and FNP nerfs Sgt sniping, and overwatch. And now all marines get the Stormraven, which means we lost out biggest ace in the hole! The sad thing is other assault armies got buffed in other ways (nids with psychic powers, flying MCs and rage, Orks with overwatch, daemons now being semi-hordy). BA have received no such bonuses...

I agree here totally. They are definitely not as cool in a game as the Fluff might suggest, which is a shame. That said, one of the pluses of Space Wolves now is their Devastators' ability to split fire. So...psychotic werewolf Vikings shooting stuff from far away... Fluff might have died.

Anyway, I think that the 5-man squad (which is still pretty inexpensive, given the cost of Jump Packs for DC) is useful only to "kill shooty things" (which will probably shoot you as you try to get close enough to kill them) or as a late-turn objective grabber. So, again, in terms of Fluff, really lame. "My assault marines...hide...until the end of the game, and then go...hide by the Objective."

What about putting 6 of them in a Stormraven and trying to use it as an Assault vehicle to overwhelm an Objective? (This would also have to be later in the game as Stormravens start in reserve)

The BA can have issues getting to "later in the game" against other lists that mean business.

Ok so since starting this thread, I have begun running Tact squads instead of Assualt Marines, and it has lead me to one very blasphemous thought, maybe I should just play Vanilla :(

Eldercaveman wrote:
Ok so since starting this thread, I have begun running Tact squads instead of Assualt Marines, and it has lead me to one very blasphemous thought, maybe I should just play Vanilla :(

They are still good for razorback spam, since its only with Assault Marines that you get a 35 point discount on the Transport, essentially giving you a free weapon upgrade of your choice. Most BA players goes with the Las/Plas Razorback since the new Fast Vehicle rules means you get to fire both weapons even if you move 12"

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
Ok so since starting this thread, I have begun running Tact squads instead of Assualt Marines, and it has lead me to one very blasphemous thought, maybe I should just play Vanilla :(

They are still good for razorback spam, since its only with Assault Marines that you get a 35 point discount on the Transport, essentially giving you a free weapon upgrade of your choice. Most BA players goes with the Las/Plas Razorback since the new Fast Vehicle rules means you get to fire both weapons even if you move 12"

I always steered clear of the Razor spam in 5th, in favour of DoA, maybe I should give it a go, but have no idea how I would even write an effective Razpr list, I've also discovered, writing a Vanilla BA list is incredibly difficult.

I have frequently considered switching to vanilla since discovering that jump marines are a bummer...however, our non-troop choices are, in my opinion, better than vanillas. I both love and fear the TFC, and I'd often rather have a Talkn than a Raven, but Furiosos and Baals are just too good to give up BAs for.

I don't think BA support is really any better than vanilla, either. There's nothing really that special in the scheme of the game about Furiosos or Baals.

Vanilla marines have better HQ choices, a higher body count, and combat tactics. Those are all pretty significant in 6th edition. They don't get divination, but divination is not worth having all your other HQ choices basically suck. Which they do for BA.

The fundamental issue of BA ASM no longer being able to win about 35% of the combats they used to win in 5th is not something that can be readily overcome, imo. Especially in a codex full of overpriced trap units.