Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Y'know, other than with Luther?

He seems to have been a pretty badass duelist otherwise...

Yes - his record with Curze is something like 2-1 to the lion.

Curze nearly throttled him to death, then the Lion got saved by the DA. Next time they met he slashed curze's throat in about 2 seconds flat. Next time, Curze ran I think.

The Lion beat Luther.
The Lion knocked out Russ with a 'suckerpunch'
Perturabo got one over on him, but they didn't fight.

Remember that Luther would have been a massive force for good had the primarchs not existed, loken describes him as a character with the force of will equal to horus and the emperor.. Thats pretty mad. Add chaos to the mix and the fact that he trained the lion, it's not hard to see why lion lost to him.

PredaKhaine wrote:
Curze nearly throttled him to death, then the Lion got saved by the DA.

The author of that scene meant for that to be a draw. Neither Primarch was definitively winning. So as far as I know, Luther is the only one and he happened to be boosted by the powers of Chaos at the time. The Lion would have been an expert swordsman considering his upbringing.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
Curze nearly throttled him to death, then the Lion got saved by the DA.

The author of that scene meant for that to be a draw. Neither Primarch was definitively winning. So as far as I know, Luther is the only one and he happened to be boosted by the powers of Chaos at the time. The Lion would have been an expert swordsman considering his upbringing.

I agree.

I think there was only one of these fights that The Lion can be flat out stated as 'winning', and that's the (second) one where he slits Curze's throat. But even then, we know very little about this fight.
As said above, the 1st was pretty much a draw, and for the 3rd Curze retreated because of the surrounding circumstances/the Night Lords getting dead'ed.

Supposedly, Lion may be having fisticuffs with Guilliman in the upcoming Unremembered Empire.

A draw? Seriously Dave?
Lion sucker attacked first - had him in melee, and when the fight gone to the brawl, Curze was on top of choking him to the death, then the backstaber saw his father down and did his thing....

Now tell me how this was a draw...What author said after was just to soothe the fanboys... Also it is a dumb argument to quote authors statments later when the book is clearly pointing to one outcome...

 DarthMarko wrote:
A draw? Seriously Dave?
Lion sucker attacked first - had him in melee, and when the fight gone to the brawl, Curze was on top of choking him to the death, then the backstaber saw what was happening and did his thing....

Now tell me how this was a draw...What author said after was just to soothe the fanboys... Also it is a dumb argument to quote authors statments later when the book is clearly pointing to one outcome...

Alternatively, you could tell me how it wasn't a draw?

 Just Dave wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
A draw? Seriously Dave?
Lion sucker attacked first - had him in melee, and when the fight gone to the brawl, Curze was on top of choking him to the death, then the backstaber saw what was happening and did his thing....

Now tell me how this was a draw...What author said after was just to soothe the fanboys... Also it is a dumb argument to quote authors statments later when the book is clearly pointing to one outcome...

Alternatively, you could tell me how it wasn't a draw?

By Curze choking him to death and the backstaber facts...
Do you honestly need more?

 Just Dave wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
A draw? Seriously Dave?
Lion sucker attacked first - had him in melee, and when the fight gone to the brawl, Curze was on top of choking him to the death, then the backstaber saw what was happening and did his thing....

Now tell me how this was a draw...What author said after was just to soothe the fanboys... Also it is a dumb argument to quote authors statments later when the book is clearly pointing to one outcome...

Alternatively, you could tell me how it wasn't a draw?

Sorry Dave, the author may have intended it be a draw but it isn't written that way, lion lost round one, lion totally unequivocally won round 2, round 3 we dont see the result.

And I'm a dark angel fanboy.. So yeah

DarthMarko wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
A draw? Seriously Dave?
Lion sucker attacked first - had him in melee, and when the fight gone to the brawl, Curze was on top of choking him to the death, then the backstaber saw what was happening and did his thing....

Now tell me how this was a draw...What author said after was just to soothe the fanboys... Also it is a dumb argument to quote authors statments later when the book is clearly pointing to one outcome...

Alternatively, you could tell me how it wasn't a draw?

By Curze choking him to death and the backstaber facts...
Do you honestly need more?

Actually, you're right - I agree.

In retrospect, I wasn't really thinking about who had the upper hand/was about to kill the other (Curze). Instead, I was thinking about who was the better fighter (seemingly Lion); but then, it really isn't a good judge to just reduce a fight or a warrior's abilities to just swordsmanship (which, judging from what I've heard about Exterminatus, is a problem Lucius has too).
So yeah, point taken, I agree. So what's that? One-a-piece? Sounds about right and would go with everything that's said regarding Primarch's generally being equal.

Just Dave wrote:Alternatively, you could tell me how it wasn't a draw?

Also, apologies. I realise that this looked dismissive. I wasn't dismissing your opinion (although then didn't agree with it); I was simply otherwise preoccupied so didn't have the time to make my own point, instead preferring to hear yours.

 Formosa wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
A draw? Seriously Dave?
Lion sucker attacked first - had him in melee, and when the fight gone to the brawl, Curze was on top of choking him to the death, then the backstaber saw what was happening and did his thing....

Now tell me how this was a draw...What author said after was just to soothe the fanboys... Also it is a dumb argument to quote authors statments later when the book is clearly pointing to one outcome...

Alternatively, you could tell me how it wasn't a draw?

Sorry Dave, the author may have intended it be a draw but it isn't written that way, lion lost round one, lion totally unequivocally won round 2, round 3 we dont see the result.

And I'm a dark angel fanboy.. So yeah

Ty for being objective...really...it clearly shows that you are not a fanboy...

 DarthMarko wrote:
A draw? Seriously Dave?
Lion sucker attacked first - had him in melee, and when the fight gone to the brawl, Curze was on top of choking him to the death, then the backstaber saw his father down and did his thing....

Now tell me how this was a draw...What author said after was just to soothe the fanboys... Also it is a dumb argument to quote authors statments later when the book is clearly pointing to one outcome...

I believe the point ADB was trying to make was that the fight wasn't over when Corswain interceeded. The Lion wasn't definately going to die until Corswain got involved, just like Curze wasn't definately going to die when he'd been stabbed through the stomach, had blood coming from his mouth and was incapable of fully defending himself against the Lion's attacks. The battle could have changed, as it already had. Assuming that there would have only been those two phases of the fight is, in my opinion, a mistake.

Quoting ADB was to show how he intended it to be viewed, and is at the very least another perspective.

^ If Corswain didn't intervened, on who would you put your money on..? The guy who is choking, or the guy who is getting choked ? Also the role of Corswain totally loses his purpose if the fight wasn't going to Curze...

The author's intentions mean nothing in light of what we actually read in the work, IMHO.

In the work, despite sucker-stabbing Curze through the stomach, Curze still managed to gain the upper hand, and was winning the brawl. The Lion was then bailed out by Corswain stabbing Curze in the spine, and Curze and Lion fought some more, both leaving equally weary and injured, so beaten and bruised they couldn't overpower the Marines under their command.

What this tells us is that Curze managed to do as much damage to Lion as what was dealt to him, despite the Lion starting the fight with a cheap shot, and then being stabbed in the spine and rode like a bull while a Marine tried and failed to garrote him.

This comes across as a win for Curze in my book. Could it have gone another way? Sure, the Lion was clearly the better duelist, but in this particular fight, it didn't go that way.

 DarthMarko wrote:
^ If Corswain didn't intervened, on who would you put your money on..? The guy who is choking, or the guy who is getting choked ? Also the role of Corswain totally loses his purpose if the fight wasn't going to Curze...

All that proves is that Curze held the advantage for a period of time. So did the Lion earlier on. It doesn't guarantee victory. I'd disagree with your second point. It still highlights the differences between the two Legions and how the Primarchs guided them. The Night Lords are selfish and focus on their own survival. They go 2 on 1 because that's how they act. Corswain helps fight an opponent he has almost no chance of actually stopping to try to help his leige. It would still emphasise the nobility of the Dark Angels in comparison to the Night Lords.

@Void - That's the whole point, nobody is even disputing that Lion is the better swordsman, but Curze had him that time - and in that scenario (if Corswain didn't intervened) I guesing he would won...

 DarthMarko wrote:
@Void - That's the whole point, nobody is even disputing that Lion is the better swordsman, but Curze had him that time - and in that scenario (if Corswain didn't intervened) I guesing he would won...

Totally agree, the next scenario lion was prepared so curze went down fast, I honestly think curze was right about the lion, he has a darkness that will always be there

Agree...Like all Primarchs :-) Did someone say he's about to go against Robby in Unremembered Empire ?

Doesn't surprise me.

He seems to believe that Roboute is trying to do the same gak that Horus is doing.

What a friggin' nutty cornball, lol.

He's not nearly as much of a psychotic clown car as Dorn is though.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

He's not nearly as much of a psychotic clown car as Dorn is though.

Whats up with Dorn?

Does the Lion have any flaws? He seems like a mary-sue compared to the rest of the primarchs.

I think the Lion lost his fight with depression.

amudkipz wrote:
Does the Lion have any flaws? He seems like a mary-sue compared to the rest of the primarchs.

The whole so arrogant he didn't realize humiliating his Mentor in front of the legion which caused said mentor to fall to chaos doesn't ring a bell?

amudkipz wrote:
Does the Lion have any flaws? He seems like a mary-sue compared to the rest of the primarchs.

Lion is just as flawed as curze, fulgrim or any other traitor primarch, but he isn't a traitor.

The best way to describe him would be a human shaped creature, it acts human, it looks human and can imitate Han behavior quite well, but its not human, it doesn't quite understand humans so it doesn't react quite the right way, doesn't feel quite the right way, he is deeply flawed and possibly the least human of the primarchs, after all curze is insane.. But it's a human insanity.

Unlike the other Primarchs, The Lion grew up isolated from humanity. He was a fully grown young adult by the time they found him. It would be surprising if he understood anyone he comes in contact with completely. His thinking revolves around logic, reason, and physical acts. I don't think he completely understands emotions, desires, and certain things that motivates people to do things. Maybe that's why he has not been tainted by chaos throughout his life surviving in a chaos infested forest. Because hes been isolated from certain human traits, he does not learn them, so therefore, chaos does not manifest.

 LumenPraebeo wrote:
Unlike the other Primarchs, The Lion grew up isolated from humanity.

Leman Russ


Automatically Appended Next Post:

amudkipz wrote:
Does the Lion have any flaws? He seems like a mary-sue compared to the rest of the primarchs.

Unlike most of the other Primarchs, the Lion is a sociopath. So he does have flaws.

And Curze (in a way)...

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 LumenPraebeo wrote:
Unlike the other Primarchs, The Lion grew up isolated from humanity.

Leman Russ

You said grew up isolated from humanity.

Russ grew up with wolves, lol.

Wolf emotions and human emotions don't perfectly mesh.

Mortarion also spent his youth isolated from humanity, and was in fact raised by foul xenos creatures, far-removed from humanity.

Oh man i came here expecting to see Simba from the lion king.England just got there asses handed to them by the welsh too.Not a good day for Shingouki(time for some more beer).