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Why are people taking Darmon Princes? Everytime I see these guys in games and play with them, they just get shot down in the middle of the board and die to bolter lasgun shurikan etc. Why not just bring soul grinders or heavy weapons? Just always see them as huge point sinks.

Daemon Princes are big points investments, that is true. The justification would be that, if they are played correctly, and you get a little bit lucky, they'll slaughter most anything. CSM often takes them with the Black Mace, which basically ensures that if the DP gets into combat with a large squad, it will win. They're definitely a gamble, and I personally don't really like them, unless you're taking like 3 of them with 2 LoC as a Tzeentch Daemon Flying Circus, but they can do nasty things if they're in the right list and not just thrown around. FMC's can get shot up pretty easily, but they're nasty if kept alive long enough.

I would say one way to run them in the daemon codex would be semi-cheap:

Daemon Prince
-Mark of Nurgle
-Wings
-Power Armour
-Greater Reward (balesword)

So now you have a deadly unit that can take on pretty much any other monstrous creatures or big things, and he get to re-roll wounds. For only 240 points, and his scary insta-death weapon, he will surely be the scapegoat for fire for one to two turns.

The problem with DPs is that for Daemons at least, you should always take more than one, or at least have another Flying MC for your opponent to worry about.

Nenya97 wrote:
Why are people taking Darmon Princes? Everytime I see these guys in games and play with them, they just get shot down in the middle of the board and die to bolter lasgun shurikan etc. Why not just bring soul grinders or heavy weapons? Just always see them as huge point sinks.

I think there are several reasons to take daemon princes.

1. Their high initiative and number of attacks will grind most things into a pulp in close combat. Taking the CSM one with a black mace makes him a terror against even big infantry squads.

2. Distraction. I think they excel at this role. For example, I've been experimenting with a winged prince with the black mace supporting a biker unit with an axe of blind fury lord. Both units draw fire away from each other. If either one makes it into combat they're going on a rampage.

As pointed out earlier, you can't take just one and then send him on his merry way at your opponent. Despite the wings, they will get shot and due to T5 and only a 3+ 5++ they will take wounds. The hope is of course to be in combat, go first due to the high initiative and then kill the enemy before they swing.

But I am starting to think that they might not be worth it. Being T5, rail guns and other S10 weapons will kill them outright. Plus if you face another monstrous creature, they are likely T6 and if the prince doesn't kill them first, smash attack can instant death them.

So I think they can be a valuable unit if used properly and hidden in cover during their travels. But I am thinking of trying a Bloodthirster instead. Costs 20 points less than a black mace prince, but is T6 and has 5 wounds. The thirster is better at taking on characters and tough units while the mace prince would probably be better against large squads. I think T6 makes the thirster more viable.

Assuming you're already taking daemon allies, I'd much rather have a 'thirster or LoC than a CSM daemon prince. T6 is that nice.

Also, if you're going with a prince I would recommend going with the Daemon one. You can take psychic powers (I know it gets even pricier to do that, but hey if you're going nutty, go nuts). Take a few rolls on biomancy or telephathy to turn him into an even bigger monster. The reason for going Daemon is because you're not obligated to take the crappy CSM powers and can just roll on the regular tables.

With the T5 Codex: Daemons Prince's = FMC + Grounding test = ID Prince.

So be careful where you invest those wings.

I like the idea of a Warp ArmorPrince in the HS slot with 3x Biomancy powers to act as a buffer/force multiplier. If you get Iron Arm then maybe swap to Telepathy to shoot for Hallucinate/Invis.

In this role they come in at around 250 points and present a powerful psychic buffer/debuffer

Razerous wrote:
With the T5 Codex: Daemons Prince's = FMC + Grounding test = ID Prince.

So be careful where you invest those wings.

Considering that the grounding test is a S9 hit, no, a daemon prince grounding test cannot instantly kill him. I don't think there are any T4 monstrous creatures that can take wings.

You should read tombking's recent battle reports where he takes one with a necron/CSM list and he does extremely well, at a tournament no less.

Expensive, yes. Hits like a truck, yes.

bogalubov wrote:
Also, if you're going with a prince I would recommend going with the Daemon one. You can take psychic powers (I know it gets even pricier to do that, but hey if you're going nutty, go nuts). Take a few rolls on biomancy or telephathy to turn him into an even bigger monster. The reason for going Daemon is because you're not obligated to take the crappy CSM powers and can just roll on the regular tables.

Cheaper than psychic powers- Greater Rewards. A couple of these can massively improve the Prince's durability.

 Mannahnin wrote:

bogalubov wrote:
Also, if you're going with a prince I would recommend going with the Daemon one. You can take psychic powers (I know it gets even pricier to do that, but hey if you're going nutty, go nuts). Take a few rolls on biomancy or telephathy to turn him into an even bigger monster. The reason for going Daemon is because you're not obligated to take the crappy CSM powers and can just roll on the regular tables.

Cheaper than psychic powers- Greater Rewards. A couple of these can massively improve the Prince's durability.

Greater rewards seem to be rather good for only being the second tier of rewards.

There seems to be this temptation to stick them into swooping mode straight off. I fought the temptation and deployed him out of line of sight, before jump packing into combat normally. He only took a single wound from overwatch before being safely wrapped in combat thereafter.

people still take them because they like the models, and because a lot of players have trouble not putting all their eggs in one expensive easily killed basket

Because

A flying MC is always a good thing
Str 6 vector strikes
Ability to take rewards, such as instant death sword
They killy in melee

Right now, the biggest use I would see for a DP would be a Slaanesh one with wing and Lash of Despair. Its primary role would be anti-flyer. However, this is a lot of points for something I can solve with other units.

Because if used correctly, they will roll an opponents entire army.
For the same price, a Grey Knights Strike Squad will not do that.

I saw written somewhere that units like the Daemon Prince are a home-run unit. They aren't going to grind hits, get on base, bunt, sac-fly and what-not. They will strike out swinging or hit you a homer. There is a place on a team for a player like that and theres a place in a list for a unit like this.

Tactically though, I can't think of a unit that will show you the difference between a good player and a bad player faster than the Daemon Prince.
Lastly, play with terrain that can block line of sight and you will see this guy get a lot better quick.

^ This. ^

-NM

I agree, i can't see why either, the high points cost and t5 is awful. Here is a comparison you can make:

Lets look at codex chaos daemons, a stock blood thirster is 250 points without any rewards.
Now lets take a prince, and give him MoK, warp forged armor, wings, and 1 lesser reward. These upgrades are to try and give it as close to the thirster as possible to make a direct comparison, the lesser reward is to represent the axe of khorne.
This prince comes in at 230 points.

Soooooo for 20 points more in the thirster i get, +1ws, +5bs, +1t (no str 10 instant death, huge), +1w, +1i, +1a, and a str6 ap2 ranged weapon.... 20 points more... The biggest kicker for me being the no instant death to Str weapons.

I can't justify the points for them.

 zachwho wrote:
I agree, i can't see why either, the high points cost and t5 is awful. Here is a comparison you can make:

Lets look at codex chaos daemons, a stock blood thirster is 250 points without any rewards.
Now lets take a prince, and give him MoK, warp forged armor, wings, and 1 lesser reward. These upgrades are to try and give it as close to the thirster as possible to make a direct comparison, the lesser reward is to represent the axe of khorne.
This prince comes in at 230 points.

Soooooo for 20 points more in the thirster i get, +1ws, +5bs, +1t (no str 10 instant death, huge), +1w, +1i, +1a, and a str6 ap2 ranged weapon.... 20 points more... The biggest kicker for me being the no instant death to Str weapons.

I can't justify the points for them.

This is going completely the wrong way about it, though. They fit the bill as a budget Greater Daemon, not as killy but cheaper so that you can squeeze more of them in (using HS slots instead of HQ if required). No Daemon Prince should be hitting Greater Daemon points levels unless they're a high level psyker.

 zachwho wrote:
I agree, i can't see why either, the high points cost and t5 is awful. Here is a comparison you can make:

Lets look at codex chaos daemons, a stock blood thirster is 250 points without any rewards.
Now lets take a prince, and give him MoK, warp forged armor, wings, and 1 lesser reward. These upgrades are to try and give it as close to the thirster as possible to make a direct comparison, the lesser reward is to represent the axe of khorne.
This prince comes in at 230 points.

Soooooo for 20 points more in the thirster i get, +1ws, +5bs, +1t (no str 10 instant death, huge), +1w, +1i, +1a, and a str6 ap2 ranged weapon.... 20 points more... The biggest kicker for me being the no instant death to Str weapons.

I can't justify the points for them.

Thats funny, I didn't know you could put Thirsters in HS slots...

Apples and Oranges dude. If you're trying to make your DP fit the same role as a GD HQ, you're doing it wrong...

If we are looking at heavy slot DPs, we need to compare them against Grinders. In almost all cases the prince will be more expensive, which is a big drawback.

But they do fit the same role...

Fmc cc unit, whether you take it as a heavy or HQ, you're looking to get the same performance out of it. Idk what other role you want your dp to fulfill, long range fire support?

Yes they cheaper, i see that, but not much, and the comparison i gave was between the two units i would be most likely to use, and both would be used as a cc fmc.

And like i said in the comparison, the point difference isn't enough to justify, imo, the larger difference in stats, mainly the demon prince being able to get one shot by str 10.

In what situation would you take a t5 MC with out wings and warp forged armor??? None. And you also have to take a mark, so you can't avoid the high point levels. And if you try to make him cheap without the wings or armor, your doing it wrong.

Then bare bones with just a mark, he's about the same points as a soul grinder, and what situation would you take a t5 no armor no winds mc over a grinder? None.

Nenya97 wrote:
Why are people taking Darmon Princes? Everytime I see these guys in games and play with them, they just get shot down in the middle of the board and die to bolter lasgun shurikan etc. Why not just bring soul grinders or heavy weapons? Just always see them as huge point sinks.

It sounds like you're likely playing with limited terrain. Daemon Princes, like Flying Hive Tyrants, aren't so hot if the opponent can shoot them wherever they are, but with proper Line of Sight blocking terrain they can be truly fearsome aggressors, popping in and out from behind cover to assault enemies or acting as area denial elements.

The Daemon Prince I took in the example I mentioned before was pretty barebones. Wings, and Slaanesh (for fluff reasons) - that's it. Just under 200 points, so admittedly, it's not a massive saving but as a fluffy Slaanesh/Nurgle army, a Bloodthirster wasn't an option. KOS and GUO don't, of course, have wings. But it's not as though the Prince suffered from not being a Bloodthirster, by the end of the game he'd accounted for a large mob of cultists, a Helbrute and a couple of Chosen.

You could kit the Prince out to be a psyker for shootiness... but it's more mobile shootiness than ranged firepower, as the Grinder is. To counter for that, the Prince is killier in combat. Granted there are a large number of things that can't hurt the Grinder in combat but that just gives them the chance to run away after the first round. Alternatively, a larger mob can keep the Soul Grinder tied down indefinitely unless they break. The Prince will keep a unit tied up in trying to kill it, and deals more damage than the Grinder does close up. So compared to a Grinder... it's shooty, less durable, but less prone to assault problems.

You could take it for anti-flier purposes, and it's here where its price shines. Give it Wings and a cheap Mark and you're good to go - just keep it tucked away until the flier comes out and attack. As I said before, the key is not to get tempted into swooping early on and letting yourself get shot down.

You could take it as a budget Greater Daemon... and yes, I'll grant you, for the extra points taking the GD is usually worth it. But in smaller games that's not always an option.

And lastly, though I can't condone it, you could if you wanted to use Princes to squeeze 5 Monstrous Creatures into a list. That's just plain nasty even if you don't give 'em Wings.

*Whew* I think I've covered every use for them I can think of. I'll concede that there will be times that taking a GD or SG makes more sense, but this narrow-minded opinion that there's no reason to take Princes because "this one unit can do this particular role better" is, frankly, false. I'd be intrigued to know, amongst the people falling on both sides of this debate, who's actually taken a Prince for a spin under a new list...

 minigun762 wrote:
If we are looking at heavy slot DPs, we need to compare them against Grinders. In almost all cases the prince will be more expensive, which is a big drawback.

True but at the same time in almost all cases the DP is able to outperform the soulgrinder, especially in AA and assaulting. The WS3/BS3 and I3 of a grinder really cripple it in these roles. The DP having WS 9 and I8 means once he's in assault he's gonna go first and slaughter entire units, while at the same time being relatively safe from attacks by other units WS4 and below like termies.

 zachwho wrote:
I agree, i can't see why either, the high points cost and t5 is awful. Here is a comparison you can make:

Lets look at codex chaos daemons, a stock blood thirster is 250 points without any rewards.
Now lets take a prince, and give him MoK, warp forged armor, wings, and 1 lesser reward. These upgrades are to try and give it as close to the thirster as possible to make a direct comparison, the lesser reward is to represent the axe of khorne.
This prince comes in at 230 points.

Soooooo for 20 points more in the thirster i get, +1ws, +5bs, +1t (no str 10 instant death, huge), +1w, +1i, +1a, and a str6 ap2 ranged weapon.... 20 points more... The biggest kicker for me being the no instant death to Str weapons.

I can't justify the points for them.

This is why I ally in CSM princes. The daemon weapons make them crazy good

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
If we are looking at heavy slot DPs, we need to compare them against Grinders. In almost all cases the prince will be more expensive, which is a big drawback.

True but at the same time in almost all cases the DP is able to outperform the soulgrinder, especially in AA and assaulting. The WS3/BS3 and I3 of a grinder really cripple it in these roles. The DP having WS 9 and I8 means once he's in assault he's gonna go first and slaughter entire units, while at the same time being relatively safe from attacks by other units WS4 and below like termies.

DP wins against other MCs
Grinder wins against light infantry in assault or shooting
Grinder wins out in shooting
DP wins out in anti flying (close one though)
Overall durability is probably a tie, AV13 and 4 HP is pretty solid against anything that isn't melta or a lascannon. DP is vulnerable to small arms fire though.

This is why I ally in CSM princes. The daemon weapons make them crazy good