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 Rented Tritium wrote:

 BitWraith wrote:
Here's a link to the law in question BTW:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

Not actually relevant. They are not claiming that you can't sell it, just that they will stop doing business with you if you do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BitWraith wrote:
I mentioned that in my post. There's several people that seem to think GW can halt all bits sales.

Instead of getting hyperbolic and using phrases like "not actionable" which are patently incorrect here, you should have stuck to the point you wanted to make and kept it clean and simple.

It's not incorrect based off the point I was trying to make: which is Games Workshop can't take legal action against a consumer for resale of all or part of their product. I have already conceded that that can take action against contracted resellers in my original post.

nkelsch wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
The more obvious justification will be starter set splitting.

If you currently want the rules you have 3 choices: buy the BRB, the box set, or the rules from the box set. If you eliminate the option for people to buy the rules from the box set for $20, they are forced to buy the BRB ($75?) or the box set ($100?).

Of course the reality is that people will either just not bother, or get the box set rules from an end customer on ebay who just wanted the figures.

So GW actually allows and promotes starter box splitting in-store. They had events for the first few weeks when 6th came out where you could buy a box and they would match you up with someone who wanted the other half.

So two people could buy their own copy and then trade the half they didn't want, or you could sell the half you didn't want to someone else who would 'pay' you via store credit.

And they still do Bitz Bazaars in GWs as long as instead of cash, you buy stuff in store credit.

I am still not worried at my ability to get the bitz that I want.

That's not the same thing though; GW wasn't allowing you to buy partial starter sets, they were just suggesting you traded stuff out with other folk in store that day, or tried to make pairs. GW's role was purely in making it a more organised post-sale trade effort. Everyone bought a box set and there were no lost sales.

The issue they were trying to avoid was LG's splitting open the starter set and selling things separately so people could choose to only buy the rules and/or their faction. Meaning people were only buying partial box sets with the rest of the set as a lost sale (whether they'd have bought it or not).

Just saw this as well:

Here is a link to the new policies.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wn5gq2srlbvxs6l/mhXkq4nVgZ

via Soosas from the Faeit 212 inbox
Miniwargaming just posted that there is a new GW document that will prevent the online sale of their products starting June 15th. I already knew this was the direction GW was going but I still find it extremely disapointing. Thought the community should know.

Sining wrote:
Anyone know if this affects the UK as well? Judging by the latest post from Waylands facebook page, I suspect there may be some nasty surprises in for UK GW retail partners as well.

Hi everyone, as you are aware, we have since our opening in 2008 made millions of pounds for some manufacturers of wargame products. We spend a huge amount of effort to always focus on improving our services and technology. We are reasonably lucky being based in the UK as it offers lots of protection for businesses that operate in a market where a single entity appears to be dominant.

It is however impossible to ignore certain recent events and so we would like to offer out our hand to any entities out there that would like to co-operate with us on representing retailers interests to suppliers.

It would assist us greatly if all of you can share this as many places as possible and any retailers that would like to talk with us can contact us via any of the multitude of contact methods we have on our sites.

as I said before the bitz sales is already in force in the UK not sure if GW UK will change their T&C's

Ok, now I'm confused, does this new agreement really prevent ALL online sales in the GW or does it only prohibit online sales when there isn't a corresponding physical presence from the same seller?

Well, the US Version has been in force since 2003 (long before Wayland even opened).

http://www.thewarstore.com/TheGWInternetOrdersPolicy.html

It's tough for people in Canada (e.g. MiniWarGaming) but it's not all that new for the U.S. or is it?

1. Online Sales Reserved To Games Workshop:
For the reasons set forth below, GAMES WORKSHOP believes that its best interests are
served by reserving online retail sales of its products in North America to GAMES WORKSHOP’S
own corporate website. GAMES WORKSHOP does not permit the online retail sale of its products by
Retailers located in the United States or Canada. By way of illustration, but not limitation, North
American Retailers are not permitted to sell GAMES WORKSHOP products on any website, webportal, third-party web-portal or other Internet-based platform of any kind. This prohibition
includes any form of online shopping cart that would enable a Consumer to order or purchase
GAMES WORKSHOP products on-line.


This is directly from the Dropbox document. It restates the same policy that has been in force in the US from 2003. Sorry friends to the north, but you are now grouped in this. Phone and snail mail orders are OK, but direct shopping carts are now a no-no.

EDIT-You can advertise GW products on websites, but can't sell them that way.

PhantomViper wrote:
Ok, now I'm confused, does this new agreement really prevent ALL online sales in the GW or does it only prohibit online sales when there isn't a corresponding physical presence from the same seller?

Neither. It's more of a price fixing maneuver. Retailers who buy direct from GW cannot sell online and cannot knowingly sell to someone who will sell online.

This ensures that online sales are being done by retailers far enough down the chain that they can't undercut the GW store. It's not that they don't want online sales, it's that they want to fix the prices.

PhantomViper wrote:
Ok, now I'm confused, does this new agreement really prevent ALL online sales in the GW or does it only prohibit online sales when there isn't a corresponding physical presence from the same seller?

In the US, (This is a US retailer terms of sale document), they are restricting the online sale of their products. Been that way since 2003. For a long time, this was though to not include bitz. GW obviously now wants to stop bitz sales, online or not.

They are now also restricting the sale of their product, online or not, to only be sold in original packaging.

Retailers who violate this will be blocked from buying GW from a distributor, or from GW directly.

 Rented Tritium wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
Ok, now I'm confused, does this new agreement really prevent ALL online sales in the GW or does it only prohibit online sales when there isn't a corresponding physical presence from the same seller?

Neither. It's more of a price fixing maneuver. Retailers who buy direct from GW cannot sell online and cannot knowingly sell to someone who will sell online.

This ensures that online sales are being done by retailers far enough down the chain that they can't undercut the GW store. It's not that they don't want online sales, it's that they want to fix the prices.

Thank you all for the clarifications.

How come this is allowed in the US? Shouldn't this breach half a dozen anti-monopoly laws or something like that?

 Rented Tritium wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
Ok, now I'm confused, does this new agreement really prevent ALL online sales in the GW or does it only prohibit online sales when there isn't a corresponding physical presence from the same seller?

Neither. It's more of a price fixing maneuver. Retailers who buy direct from GW cannot sell online and cannot knowingly sell to someone who will sell online.

This ensures that online sales are being done by retailers far enough down the chain that they can't undercut the GW store. It's not that they don't want online sales, it's that they want to fix the prices.

That's not exactly what it says. It says a retailer can't sell to another retailer, only customers. Now if I buy a DV set and want to split it and sell half online I can, and retailers can sell to me. If I'm buying the same DV set and parting it and selling all of it as my business, retailers shouldn't be selling to me.

PhantomViper wrote:


Thank you all for the clarifications.

How come this is allowed in the US? Shouldn't this breach half a dozen anti-monopoly laws or something like that?

The US has anti-monoply laws?

Somehow Microsoft, Apple & Co. only ever seem to get fined in the EU

Seriously, GW is not a monopolist. They are not even in the Top 10 (http://top10links.com/cat.php/Recreation%3AToys%3AManufacturers).

Kinda skimming through this thread, haven't seen the links posted.

there are a couple of documents up confirming this, and I love that GW trade account letter which has been steeped in so much BS that it renders the paper it's printed on unusable even as toilet paper.

I for one am utterly unsurprised. How bout dat price hike to make up for their gigantic financial losses for throwing a legal case?

 poda_t wrote:
Kinda skimming through this thread, haven't seen the links posted.

Half way up the page:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/420/514316.page#5406369

well, now it's on page 15 3 times, should make it easier to spot. hahaha.

I for one look forward to finally being able to sell off my pile of gak a little more easily, seeing as I am abandoning the hobby.

Here is a link to an article about a case the just came down from the US supreme court affirming the "First Sale Doctrine" in the US.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/thai-student-protected-by-first-sale-supreme-court-rules/

Essentially it's a toothless measure by GWs because it is unenforceable on it's face. Once someone buys one if its kits a person can dice them up an sell them for a $1million if they really wanted to.

So long as they arn't making copies (which may come up in future years with 3D printers) there's not much GW can do.

GW doesn't understand how the law works, though. It's why they tried to claim the term "Space Marine" exclusively belonged to them and it ended up being a disaster for them.

 buddha wrote:
Here is a link to an article about a case the just came down from the US supreme court affirming the "First Sale Doctrine" in the US.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/thai-student-protected-by-first-sale-supreme-court-rules/

Essentially it's a toothless measure by GWs because it is unenforceable on it's face. Once someone buys one if its kits a person can dice them up an sell them for a $1million if they really wanted to.

So long as they arn't making copies (which may come up in future years with 3D printers) there's not much GW can do.

GW can stop selling to the retailler. I'd say there's quite a lot that GW can do to enforce its own policies.

Does this mean they won't sell to amazon anymore?

 poda_t wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Here is a link to an article about a case the just came down from the US supreme court affirming the "First Sale Doctrine" in the US.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/thai-student-protected-by-first-sale-supreme-court-rules/

Essentially it's a toothless measure by GWs because it is unenforceable on it's face. Once someone buys one if its kits a person can dice them up an sell them for a $1million if they really wanted to.

So long as they arn't making copies (which may come up in future years with 3D printers) there's not much GW can do.

GW can stop selling to the retailler. I'd say there's quite a lot that GW can do to enforce its own policies.

But the issue in question is "prohibiting the sale of bits." Bits retailers may not be able to buy at MSRP rates but they can still buy normally and then dice them up later with no consequence (outside of likley higher bits prices of course).

From Faeit212:

via the Faeit 212 inbox
GW to reenter the bits market?
So GW are advertising for a component parts warehouse manager, plus the ban on bits selling suggest GW may be planning to roll out the bits department again.

On a side note it seems this GW v chapterhouse legal suite has made GW up their game and production schedule, as they are also advertising for rules writers for both mainstream and forge world...

We had heard the rest, but a 'component parts warehouse manager'? That's new.

 buddha wrote:
Here is a link to an article about a case the just came down from the US supreme court affirming the "First Sale Doctrine" in the US.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/thai-student-protected-by-first-sale-supreme-court-rules/

Essentially it's a toothless measure by GWs because it is unenforceable on it's face. Once someone buys one if its kits a person can dice them up an sell them for a $1million if they really wanted to.

So long as they arn't making copies (which may come up in future years with 3D printers) there's not much GW can do.

For the 10th time, GW never said they could stop you from selling a product. They said they can stop doing business with you if you do. If you are a shop and you are selling online, GW can stop giving you your nice direct sale shop discount. You're free to resell a product, they are free to stop doing business with you.

This is basic contract law.

Contract being the operative word. You have to agree to their terms in writing for retail distribution. If you're a retail store and you want to buy their products at full retail prices and break them up (without signing anything), there's really nothing they can do to stop you. If you sign a distribution contract with them and do it, they'll cut you off.

Refusal to do business with a customer can be a hazy thing in America. There are several instances where it's not allowed (color of skin, religion, etc), and some instances where it is (sale of goods will damage business, what GW is postulating).

For the last couple years the only GW purchases I made have been from people who take battleforces or squad boxes and break them up. They still make the minority of my miniature gaming purchases, but if this policy either makes those sellers close up shop or raise prices, I'm probably just going to decrease my GW purchases even further, perhaps to zero. Actually let's be honest it's probably there already.

But I can't be the only one who is spending money on GW bitz, even to a small degree. It's enough of a issue that GW is trying to stop it. I highly doubt that those who like buying individual parts off of eBay are suddenly going to switch their purchases to full squad boxes.

Yea GW is saying "were not giving you the 45% discount if we find you too be opening box's and selling bits if you bought that box directly through us"
You can still sell bits you just have to go through someone else to get the bits.

I think GW is going to be restarting selling bits. The online sale thing has been around forever.

The age restriction thing is just a legal Cover your ass thing. Certain state do not allow sale of certain items to minor. Spray paint to childern under 18 in rhode island is an example. They basically telling the brick and morter stores that they need to followl there own state/city laws.

This is just an updated version of there 2003 law, just closing a door people used to get around the rule. Some will find the open window and life will go on. Lets all stop with the chicken little stuff now, "the sky is not falling"

Is nobody talking about GW not selling to online retailers anymore? Was that completely missed?

 Absolutionis wrote:
Is nobody talking about GW not selling to online retailers anymore? Was that completely missed?

You mean other than the several times it was posted in the thread? Nah, we aren't talking about it.

 pretre wrote:

 Absolutionis wrote:
Is nobody talking about GW not selling to online retailers anymore? Was that completely missed?

You mean other than the several times it was posted in the thread? Nah, we aren't talking about it.

I was fairly certain that nothing about it changed (i.e. no websites with carts, etc..), or did I miss something as well

Warboss Gubbinz wrote:Here is a link to the PDF on Google Docs:

https://doc-14-cc-docs.googleusercontent.com/docs/securesc/f2u2j42j0ioq2j9uqecikflho41lbo7a/u777h85jbii7h41q7h5p3stigjue225k/1363442400000/04079268591086403494/09650871989658418762/0B2zne5ewd4fBemhzRE5KM3BlUGs?e=download&nonce=qgcm8g4v98mfe&user=09650871989658418762&hash=85kurtcv2g1d904ep0gkaeqb9dlv5uoj

miniwargaming wrote:I haven't read all 6 pages of the replies, so I apologize if someone already posted this.
You can see all the new trade documents here:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wn5gq2srlbvxs6l/mhXkq4nVgZ

MadCowCrazy wrote:Well, it's now confirmed.

MWG put this up: Click me

Drop Box link with all the GW trade term pdfs

pretre wrote:Just saw this as well:
Here is a link to the new policies.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wn5gq2srlbvxs6l/mhXkq4nVgZ

What's next, pretre? Posting leaked WD pics of the upcoming Tau release

pretre wrote:From Faeit212:

via the Faeit 212 inbox
GW to reenter the bits market?
So GW are advertising for a component parts warehouse manager, plus the ban on bits selling suggest GW may be planning to roll out the bits department again.

We had heard the rest, but a 'component parts warehouse manager'? That's new.

Advertising for a component parts warehouse manager? Sounds like an vacancy for a High Elf Armybook truck driver end of April.
Actually, all vacancies are listed here: http://careers.games-workshop.com/category/current_vacancies/

 Alfndrate wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 Absolutionis wrote:
Is nobody talking about GW not selling to online retailers anymore? Was that completely missed?

You mean other than the several times it was posted in the thread? Nah, we aren't talking about it.

I was fairly certain that nothing about it changed (i.e. no websites with carts, etc..), or did I miss something as well

It appears to extend the 'No Webstore' language to Canada. It still says you can't sell anything online. Nothing about advertising or listing and then call in for ordering (the old workaround) that I saw.