Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

sooo your saying that i cant email and order in or call it in? pay with CC over the "phone" this will become the grey area id say. just like MM have on their website "we stock it but cant advertise any of it email for info" there will become a work around.

Also i know i asked this before but contract painting services, and the like.... for them it will be a get customer to order items and ship locally, but at the same time previous comment of for an international person that just plain becomes a pain in the cheeks due to needing workarounds of "no internet sales"

Well if I am reading this right and I can no longer buy from The Warstore for all my bitz then I am pretty much going to have to stop buying their product all together. With no Canadian retailers left (that I know of) and no stores in the province all I am left with is the GW online store with its stupid inflated prices. Hope this new practice works out well for them, I'm off to buy some more Dreamforge troopers...

You are reading it right, your options as a Canadian are find a local store or buy from GW online. You have until June to buy your last things from online people.

 Commander Cain wrote:
Well if I am reading this right and I can no longer buy from The Warstore for all my bitz then I am pretty much going to have to stop buying their product all together. With no Canadian retailers left (that I know of) and no stores in the province all I am left with is the GW online store with its stupid inflated prices. Hope this new practice works out well for them, I'm off to buy some more Dreamforge troopers...

That’s the ticket Brother!

Dreamforge has one hellavea' opening into the plastic market... if Mark had the resources he'd keep us all in fantastic plastic models for years to come.

people talk alot about boycotts but still buy the stuff… just stop buying it. Move your funds to another company. When the shareholders see that stock plummet it’ll shake up the company.
I for one have just moved past the stocky, blocky, over price space marine driven machine.

I wonder at the LGS i buy stuff in Japan, i hope they sent these rules out only in English so i am save.

You're safe anyway. This is US only at this point.

 insaniak wrote:
You're safe anyway. This is US only at this point.

For now. As stated before. The Revenue streaming process will continue. Do not think you are safe in Japan or any other country.

Because sooner or later you are going to get screwed and it will come a time to decide for you to leave GW products or not. The corporation does not care about their current customer base. They got enough Sheeple to keep them afloat for the near future.

In all honesty many companies try to or do in fact outright prohibit trade partners from changing the packaging on their product. For instance you don't see your local grocery store opening bags of Oreo's, throwing 1 or 2 them in a non-descript plastic baggy then selling them to you for 50 cents a bag do you? Having read the trade agreement thanks to miniwargaming.com the whole section regarding bitz sales makes total sense from a company standpoint. GW's posistioning itself as a seller of a PREMIUM product at a PREMIUM price and while some folks will disagree aesthetically GW's mini's are factually the highest quality plastic and resin mini's around when you disregard aesthetic preferences (that you think the pumbagor looks dumb is immaterial in otherwords)

For example look at this bitz search on ebay canada

http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311.R3&_nkw=warhammer+bitz&_sacat=0&_from=R40

where in ANY of those pictures is GW's corporate logo, packaging or any of the other brand recognition they've spent millions on being displayed? NOWHERE, and it's not like it's any different on bit seller websites like the war store
http://www.thewarstore.com/product32719.html

You don't have to agree with it, frankly you can be annoyed by it as a convertor but as a business decision this is a solid, responsible move for them that will in the long run WILL increase sales as despite the fact that many people won't buy the full kit in order to get certain bits there will be plenty of people that do. More importantly though it prevents GW's kits from being presented in what is quite literally a cheap and unappealing fashion. Again, I will lament not being able to buy the bits I want that I can't trade/bum/beg for but it's not a "OMG GW IS EVIL AND TRYING TO DESTROY THEMSELVES" decision, it is a smart, business orientated one that will likely be beneficial in the long run.

Orktavius wrote:
where in ANY of those pictures is GW's corporate logo, packaging or any of the other brand recognition they've spent millions on being displayed? NOWHERE, and it's not like it's any different on bit seller websites like the war store
http://www.thewarstore.com/product32719.html

That's because GW treats it as copyright infringement ...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orktavius wrote:
... it is a smart, business orientated one that will likely be beneficial in the long run.

Yep, fewer stores is a better result for everyone...

Orktavius wrote:
In all honesty many companies try to or do in fact outright prohibit trade partners from changing the packaging on their product. For instance you don't see your local grocery store opening bags of Oreo's, throwing 1 or 2 them in a non-descript plastic baggy then selling them to you for 50 cents a bag do you? Having read the trade agreement thanks to miniwargaming.com the whole section regarding bitz sales makes total sense from a company standpoint. GW's posistioning itself as a seller of a PREMIUM product at a PREMIUM price and while some folks will disagree aesthetically GW's mini's are factually the highest quality plastic and resin mini's around when you disregard aesthetic preferences (that you think the pumbagor looks dumb is immaterial in otherwords)

For example look at this bitz search on ebay canada

http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311.R3&_nkw=warhammer+bitz&_sacat=0&_from=R40

where in ANY of those pictures is GW's corporate logo, packaging or any of the other brand recognition they've spent millions on being displayed? NOWHERE, and it's not like it's any different on bit seller websites like the war store
http://www.thewarstore.com/product32719.html

You don't have to agree with it, frankly you can be annoyed by it as a convertor but as a business decision this is a solid, responsible move for them that will in the long run WILL increase sales as despite the fact that many people won't buy the full kit in order to get certain bits there will be plenty of people that do. More importantly though it prevents GW's kits from being presented in what is quite literally a cheap and unappealing fashion. Again, I will lament not being able to buy the bits I want that I can't trade/bum/beg for but it's not a "OMG GW IS EVIL AND TRYING TO DESTROY THEMSELVES" decision, it is a smart, business orientated one that will likely be beneficial in the long run.

just no. how is it you can mark yourself as a MODELING and MODEL company that WANTS people to do conversions and make things up for yourself but expect someone to spend $50 to get a thunder hammer or power klaw? its not a case of going gosh darn it, if GW creates a void in bits like its trying to it has 2 options 1) fill the void itself and make considerable amounts in the process or 2) watch recasters etc etc etc (cough look at the CH saga) and see what will happen when its some faceless guy they cant target on ebay....

and lets also be honest here, if your shopping for bitz its because you already ahve the kits with all the GW markings so you KNOW what your looking for as a small addon. little timmy wont be looking at bitz going OMG who made those, bitz really is those that have the major parts and need a weapon or a head or something because you already HAVE the rest...

Do you honestly think that if someone wants to kit out a Razorback with a TL assault cannon, that they are going to shell out $80 for a(nother?) Land Raider kit?

Nope, won't happen. They'll either find another way to represent that option, or go to a secondary source.

I'm still waiting on the MM option for Razorbacks to come out, oh GW doesn't have one? Prithee where may I findeth one? Make one from extra bits? But, good sir I have not the bits for that. A third-party supplier? But, they have not the same appearance as the official parts, what deviltry is this?

So If I want the MM from a Devastator kit for that project, where do I go to find it?

xraytango wrote:
Do you honestly think that if someone wants to kit out a Razorback with a TL assault cannon, that they are going to shell out $80 for a(nother?) Land Raider kit?

Nope, won't happen. They'll either find another way to represent that option, or go to a secondary source.

I'm still waiting on the MM option for Razorbacks to come out, oh GW doesn't have one? Prithee where may I findeth one? Make one from extra bits? But, good sir I have not the bits for that. A third-party supplier? But, they have not the same appearance as the official parts, what deviltry is this?

So If I want the MM from a Devastator kit for that project, where do I go to find it?

with this logic good sir you but TWO devestator kits to get your multimeltas

really, you can tell from internet photo's if they are GW bits and no knock offs? having GW product opened up and sold in clear plastic baggies by retailers devalues the brand and the perception of quality. Packaging matters people, it's why companies spend millions on how to display their products.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1710026a

If you want thunder hammers you can buy the bitz pack from GW and it will come to you in proper packaging with GW logo's/branding and all that jazz on it. Currently Privateer press parts out their entire line exactly like GW used to but I'm more than willing to bet they will soon realize exactly what GW did and that it is expensive as hell to send someone running around the warehouse looking for 30 different bits for a bits order and will discontinue that practice like GW did and stick only to popular bits like weapons and icons and the like.

god ok lets not specific to to a thunder hammer... lets pick a certain head with a certain expression or whatever....

Orktavius wrote:
In all honesty many companies try to or do in fact outright prohibit trade partners from changing the packaging on their product. For instance you don't see your local grocery store opening bags of Oreo's, throwing 1 or 2 them in a non-descript plastic baggy then selling them to you for 50 cents a bag do you? Having read the trade agreement thanks to miniwargaming.com the whole section regarding bitz sales makes total sense from a company standpoint. GW's posistioning itself as a seller of a PREMIUM product at a PREMIUM price and while some folks will disagree aesthetically GW's mini's are factually the highest quality plastic and resin mini's around when you disregard aesthetic preferences (that you think the pumbagor looks dumb is immaterial in otherwords)

For example look at this bitz search on ebay canada

http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311.R3&_nkw=warhammer+bitz&_sacat=0&_from=R40

where in ANY of those pictures is GW's corporate logo, packaging or any of the other brand recognition they've spent millions on being displayed? NOWHERE, and it's not like it's any different on bit seller websites like the war store
http://www.thewarstore.com/product32719.html

You don't have to agree with it, frankly you can be annoyed by it as a convertor but as a business decision this is a solid, responsible move for them that will in the long run WILL increase sales as despite the fact that many people won't buy the full kit in order to get certain bits there will be plenty of people that do. More importantly though it prevents GW's kits from being presented in what is quite literally a cheap and unappealing fashion. Again, I will lament not being able to buy the bits I want that I can't trade/bum/beg for but it's not a "OMG GW IS EVIL AND TRYING TO DESTROY THEMSELVES" decision, it is a smart, business orientated one that will likely be beneficial in the long run.

No I don't have to agree, I respectfully disagree.

1. GW advertise their models as being customisable, yet they stopped selling components years ago and are now stopping others for selling them.

2. GW have "cracked down" on people using their logo, if it devalues their product that people are selling them without their logo, they have only themselves to blame.

3. If you are buying a Space Marine multimelta, chances are it's because you bought a Space Marine Devastator squad. The idea that the bit devalues the product when the product has already been purchased is, IMO, a bit silly.

4. IMO, the changes in the trade agreement will decrease long term customers because they are pissing off customers and pissed off customers are less likely to be return customers and more likely to dirty your name on forums like this (GW's business practices have done wonders for other companies, I probably never would have known about a lot of other miniature manufacturers if it weren't for the rampant hate their business practices have instilled in much of their consumer base).

5. It's not far fetched to assume GW are shooting for short term gains over long term gains and/or are exaggerating their long term potential with these business practices. The world is full of failed companies. Yes, we are mostly armchair commenters, but that doesn't mean GW are right.

6. IMO, the best business practice is always going to be to make your customers happy as possible and encourage return business. It is fortuitous for GW that their games are such that once you invest in an army, you tend to want to see it through, so that is a good source of getting customers to return. But, IMO, it's only going to go so far when you massively piss off large portion of your customer base. Look at the LFGS's, I don't know about you, but compared to when I started the GW shelf is much smaller in my handful of LFGS's than it ever used to be and it's far easier to run in to someone who will push you away from GW products and toward other products. IMO, GW aren't at in a position where they can self sustain and I think they are going to pay for pissing off both customers AND retailers of their products. ie. Not good business practice.

Orktavius wrote:
really, you can tell from internet photo's if they are GW bits and no knock offs?

No, but I usually can once they're in hand. Which is soon enough, generally.

having GW product opened up and sold in clear plastic baggies by retailers devalues the brand and the perception of quality.

Sorry, but that's nonsense. I don't think something is better quality because it's in a box with a logo on it. I think it's quality because it's good.

You know what devalues the brand and hurts the perception of quality? Switching to a cheaper material that isn't actually suited to your chosen casting method, jacking up prices for models made from that cheaper material, not initiating decent quality control, and then sticking your fingers in your ears when people start to complain and screaming 'No! They're the best quality miniatures in the world! Look at the details!!!!1!!!!ONE!'

Packaging matters where people are easily swayed between brands. For customers of a specific game, not so much.

 insaniak wrote:
You're safe anyway. This is US only at this point.

Like Australia - a lot of Japanese customers and retailers actually source products from the US. I know one for certain who purchases from a distributor based in California and in doing so they are able to save a substantial amount over the existing GW distributor for the Japanese market. I wouldn't be surprised to here a lot of other smaller markets do similar actions...otherwise it wouldn't have made too much sense for GW to bother putting it in the contracts.

__________________________


For any Canadian businesses who might be interested in pursuing the issue, it looks as though there might be grounds to challenge the contract under the Competition Act, in particular Section 77's Market Restriction clause.

“market restriction” means any practice whereby a supplier of a product, as a condition of supplying the product to a customer, requires that customer to supply any product only in a defined market, or exacts a penalty of any kind from the customer if he supplies any product outside a defined market;

Prior case history has defined the internet as a distinct market, as well as the obvious cross border restriction.

Market restriction

(3) Where, on application by the Commissioner or a person granted leave under section 103.1, the Tribunal finds that market restriction, because it is engaged in by a major supplier of a product or because it is widespread in relation to a product, is likely to substantially lessen competition in relation to the product, the Tribunal may make an order directed to all or any of the suppliers against whom an order is sought prohibiting them from continuing to engage in market restriction and containing any other requirement that, in its opinion, is necessary to restore or stimulate competition in relation to the product.

The nature of the trade agreement quite clearly is to eliminate competition both on the internet as well as in overseas markets like Australia. The Competition Act fairly clearly prohibits these actions by dominant suppliers of a given product class (which GW would be as the market dominance level that they set out was 35%). As I understand it, there are minimal costs related to filing a complaint - and the commission handles it as a neutral party, so there shouldn't be any litigation costs either.

Bad move GW, not that you care at all...

But i care, and you have lost another 300 bucks per year...

I hope you have enought new clients coming in to make it for the next 10 years (and hell, i would have increased that ammount in 10 years).

 insaniak wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
really, you can tell from internet photo's if they are GW bits and no knock offs?

No, but I usually can once they're in hand. Which is soon enough, generally.

having GW product opened up and sold in clear plastic baggies by retailers devalues the brand and the perception of quality.

Sorry, but that's nonsense. I don't think something is better quality because it's in a box with a logo on it. I think it's quality because it's good.

You know what devalues the brand and hurts the perception of quality? Switching to a cheaper material that isn't actually suited to your chosen casting method, not initiating decent quality control, and then sticking your fingers in your ears when people start to complain and screaming 'No! They're the best quality miniatures in the world! Look at the details!!!!1!!!!ONE!'

Packaging matters where people are easily swayed between brands. For customers of a specific game, not so much.

And a bit more on the finecast thing, I read a report by mark wells that says the cost increase is actually from the "extremely high level of quality control"(his words).

 Ravenous D wrote:
And a bit more on the finecast thing, I read a report by mark wells that says the cost increase is actually from the "extremely high level of quality control"(his words).

hey dont knock finecast, my brother corbulo has a sweet SWORD sadly its toothless.......

but i digress....

Orktavius wrote:
really, you can tell from internet photo's if they are GW bits and no knock offs? having GW product opened up and sold in clear plastic baggies by retailers devalues the brand and the perception of quality. Packaging matters people, it's why companies spend millions on how to display their products.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1710026a

If you want thunder hammers you can buy the bitz pack from GW and it will come to you in proper packaging with GW logo's/branding and all that jazz on it. Currently Privateer press parts out their entire line exactly like GW used to but I'm more than willing to bet they will soon realize exactly what GW did and that it is expensive as hell to send someone running around the warehouse looking for 30 different bits for a bits order and will discontinue that practice like GW did and stick only to popular bits like weapons and icons and the like.

Why would they? Like any product, if it is expensive as hell to produce...you price that expensive as hell aspect into the retail cost. There is really little reason to ever stop offering metal bits for sale, as they can be produced on demand in short order and the costs are easy to calculate and add into the final price. If customers want a bit, they evaluate that desire versus the price. If the price is too high - then they don't buy it.

Reaper has their entire back catalog of bits from well over 3000 different items available to order one part at a time if you want - and they have no intention of stopping that service.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

5. It's not far fetched to assume GW are shooting for short term gains over long term gains and/or are exaggerating their long term potential with these business practices. The world is full of failed companies. Yes, we are mostly armchair commenters, but that doesn't mean GW are right.

This has been something I suspect GW has been doing for some time now; they have shareholders to which they are beholden to and quite frankly, probably gives two fewer gaks about what the product is so long as their investment pans out.

If GW were to tumble dramatically in public trading and lose significant revenue despite the new spat of releases, I would venture to guess shares would change hands and in the extreme situation, GW fold and creditors get what they can from the company as the IP is sold off to other companies (most likely Hasbro or Disney).

Not sure it was here but someone mentioned about a case selling Books, an immigrant from Thailand.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/garyshapiro/2013/03/20/supreme-court-gives-american-consumers-victory-over-copyright-owners-in-kirtsaeng-vs-john-wiley-sons/

This is an important case in the US

 WarOne wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

5. It's not far fetched to assume GW are shooting for short term gains over long term gains and/or are exaggerating their long term potential with these business practices. The world is full of failed companies. Yes, we are mostly armchair commenters, but that doesn't mean GW are right.

This has been something I suspect GW has been doing for some time now; they have shareholders to which they are beholden to and quite frankly, probably gives two fewer gaks about what the product is so long as their investment pans out.

If GW were to tumble dramatically in public trading and lose significant revenue despite the new spat of releases, I would venture to guess shares would change hands and in the extreme situation, GW fold and creditors get what they can from the company as the IP is sold off to other companies (most likely Hasbro or Disney).

Quite likely it is also one of the reasons you have seen a flurry of licenses issued for games in the past month or three. Get some numbers in to prop up their FY numbers in light of disappointing Hobbit sales figures. Add those into a few dozen retailers making big orders in order to squirrel away products before the embargo goes into effect and you will probably see flat numbers year over year (or a slight increase...) which of course will be heralded as further evidence of the health of GW.

If that's their idea of quality control then someone needs to be fired because their sleeping on the job.

Yes, it's been mentioned. It's not really relevant.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:
Not sure it was here but someone mentioned about a case selling Books, an immigrant from Thailand.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/garyshapiro/2013/03/20/supreme-court-gives-american-consumers-victory-over-copyright-owners-in-kirtsaeng-vs-john-wiley-sons/

This is an important case in the US

I think that is the 3rd or 4th time that case was referenced...

The issues relating to that case are different from this case. In particular, the immigrant was purchasing the product from outside the US and importing it into the US in order to sell here. The publishers tried to stop him from selling the products which he purchased legally (and were published legally) in Thailand. The courts ruled that once he purchased goods as a consumer, he could sell them in the US without a problem.

The issues we are seeing here are distributor-retailer relationships which are governed under different aspects of the law. A good comparison would be if someone were to go ahead and purchase a bunch of GW products in the UK from Wayland, file for VAT reimbursement, carry them back to the US (or ship them back) and then use those goods to resell here. The cost savings between the Wayland discount and VAT reimbursement would actually give you around a 40% discount of UK prices (which is far below US retail). GW could not stop you from doing that.

However, in the US - most the terms of the contract are legal on the face of them. I think retailers based in Wisconsin might have some recourse under the Wisconsin Fair Dealership Law, but I plan on reading the case law relating to that tomorrow while at the hospital to find out for certain.

I am pretty sure the Canadians have an out if anyone wanted to push the issue under their Competition Act that I cited above.

Orktavius wrote:
really, you can tell from internet photo's if they are GW bits and no knock offs? having GW product opened up and sold in clear plastic baggies by retailers devalues the brand and the perception of quality. Packaging matters people, it's why companies spend millions on how to display their products.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1710026a

If you want thunder hammers you can buy the bitz pack from GW and it will come to you in proper packaging with GW logo's/branding and all that jazz on it. Currently Privateer press parts out their entire line exactly like GW used to but I'm more than willing to bet they will soon realize exactly what GW did and that it is expensive as hell to send someone running around the warehouse looking for 30 different bits for a bits order and will discontinue that practice like GW did and stick only to popular bits like weapons and icons and the like.

If GW cared so much about its logo, packaging and branding why would they prohibit retailers from using them in advertisements and webstores?

Besides which, everyone playing 40K who needs 40K bits knows what they're looking for and doesn't need them to come in labeled packaging to remind them what it was they bought.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

The issues we are seeing here are distributor-retailer relationships which are governed under different aspects of the law. A good comparison would be if someone were to go ahead and purchase a bunch of GW products in the UK from Wayland, file for VAT reimbursement, carry them back to the US (or ship them back) and then use those goods to resell here. The cost savings between the Wayland discount and VAT reimbursement would actually give you around a 40% discount of UK prices (which is far below US retail). GW could not stop you from doing that.

Unfortunately the British government has done a good job of stopping you from doing that. There's virtually no service at the airports and an overall lack of information on how to get a VAT refund on leaving the country. Just having receipts isn't enough: you need the store you bought from to fill in a bunch of information and it all needs to be filed just so in order to get back what you shouldn't have paid in the first place.

Travelers leaving the EU through Amsterdam are luckier as they can go through a third party who makes it his business to get that tax back - at a cost of course. Again, there are rules: you need to have spent more than a certain amount at a retailer (I think it's £100), you're supposed to have the product in your carry-on baggage for inspection, and most importantly from my point of view, you need to show an invoice which shows clearly both the VAT paid in-country AND shows your billing address as being overseas. Wayland doesn't allow you to set up a billing address that's different to your shipping address, and so I'm not sure how the hell to get round this problem (though I sure as hell plan on trying next month).

Orktavius wrote:
really, you can tell from internet photo's if they are GW bits and no knock offs? having GW product opened up and sold in clear plastic baggies by retailers devalues the brand and the perception of quality. Packaging matters people, it's why companies spend millions on how to display their products.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1710026a

If you want thunder hammers you can buy the bitz pack from GW and it will come to you in proper packaging with GW logo's/branding and all that jazz on it. Currently Privateer press parts out their entire line exactly like GW used to but I'm more than willing to bet they will soon realize exactly what GW did and that it is expensive as hell to send someone running around the warehouse looking for 30 different bits for a bits order and will discontinue that practice like GW did and stick only to popular bits like weapons and icons and the like.

You realize, of course, that if you order those thunderhammers, they come in a plain clam pack with a plain white cardboard insert with the 40k, Warhammer, GW and Citadel logos on it.

Because quality packaging matters, and you totally knew that before launching your tirade.

Serisouly, those bits come in the GW equivalent of a FineBaggie.