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angryboy2k wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

The issues we are seeing here are distributor-retailer relationships which are governed under different aspects of the law. A good comparison would be if someone were to go ahead and purchase a bunch of GW products in the UK from Wayland, file for VAT reimbursement, carry them back to the US (or ship them back) and then use those goods to resell here. The cost savings between the Wayland discount and VAT reimbursement would actually give you around a 40% discount of UK prices (which is far below US retail). GW could not stop you from doing that.

Unfortunately the British government has done a good job of stopping you from doing that. There's virtually no service at the airports and an overall lack of information on how to get a VAT refund on leaving the country. Just having receipts isn't enough: you need the store you bought from to fill in a bunch of information and it all needs to be filed just so in order to get back what you shouldn't have paid in the first place.

Travelers leaving the EU through Amsterdam are luckier as they can go through a third party who makes it his business to get that tax back - at a cost of course. Again, there are rules: you need to have spent more than a certain amount at a retailer (I think it's £100), you're supposed to have the product in your carry-on baggage for inspection, and most importantly from my point of view, you need to show an invoice which shows clearly both the VAT paid in-country AND shows your billing address as being overseas. Wayland doesn't allow you to set up a billing address that's different to your shipping address, and so I'm not sure how the hell to get round this problem (though I sure as hell plan on trying next month).

It isn't that bad, I actually file VAT refund paperwork every time I come back from Europe (every year or two - my wife has family in Scotland and I have some friends who live down near London). The first time through involves a bit of hassle, but as long as the items are not consumables - you can get your 20% back without much difficulty.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/sectors/consumers/overseas-visitors.htm
____________________________

For any other legal eagles who are up to digging through the statutes, it would appear that the phrasing of the GW contract creates a defacto franchise relationship under Missouri, Nebraska, New Jersey, and Wisconsin laws and potentially a franchise relationship under California, Connecticut, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Virginia, and Washington provided the retailer purchases in store displays and signage and utilizes GW recommended plannograms. Franchises have much greater protections, and the given statutes may allow for various clauses to be invalidated - in particular GW reserving the right to online sales to themselves as that puts them in direct competition with the franchisee. Of course, I still haven't had a chance to fully dig into things - but those are the needles I have found so far.

 -Loki- wrote:
Because quality packaging matters, and you totally knew that before launching your tirade.

Serisouly, those bits come in the GW equivalent of a FineBaggie.

And there's the thing... Packing might matter to mum or dad buying minis in store without any idea what they are buying (in which case brand recognition still isn't going to count for a whole hell of a lot)... But anyone buying bits isn't going to be swayed by whether or not the multimelta they're looking at on ebay has a GW logo displayed or not. If you know enough to go looking for multimeltas, you know that GW makes them. Coming in GW packaging or not is not going to affect your perception of the quality of that multimelta.

 -Loki- wrote:
You realize, of course, that if you order those thunderhammers, they come in a plain clam pack with a plain white cardboard insert with the 40k, Warhammer, GW and Citadel logos on it.

And apparently the LotR corporation logo - all of which add up to trademark dilution on their own part which is a firm example of how little they really care about packaging and their image.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

It isn't that bad, I actually file VAT refund paperwork every time I come back from Europe (every year or two - my wife has family in Scotland and I have some friends who live down near London). The first time through involves a bit of hassle, but as long as the items are not consumables - you can get your 20% back without much difficulty.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/sectors/consumers/overseas-visitors.htm
____________________________

I've done it once (quite a few years ago) and found it easy, but now that I always leave from Manchester Airport it's become nearly impossible. There's no customs officers at Manchester Airport - just a telephone and an instruction to post your claim and receipts back - which IIRC you needed to have had stamped at the point of purchase. I felt like the setup was done deliberately to make it hard for customers to claim money back unless the retailer you bought from was already participating in the tax-free shopping scheme.

Anyway, I'm gonna give it a try in a few weeks' time so I'll see how I get on.

Orktavius wrote:
really, you can tell from internet photo's if they are GW bits and no knock offs? having GW product opened up and sold in clear plastic baggies by retailers devalues the brand and the perception of quality. Packaging matters people, it's why companies spend millions on how to display their products.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1710026a

If you want thunder hammers you can buy the bitz pack from GW and it will come to you in proper packaging with GW logo's/branding and all that jazz on it. Currently Privateer press parts out their entire line exactly like GW used to but I'm more than willing to bet they will soon realize exactly what GW did and that it is expensive as hell to send someone running around the warehouse looking for 30 different bits for a bits order and will discontinue that practice like GW did and stick only to popular bits like weapons and icons and the like.

What, are you Games Workshop's poster child? I fail to see how their decisions in the last three years and mainly those in the last year can sustain the company more than a few years. If current trends continue, prices will rise again, more people will FINALLY stop buying GW products and put their money where their mouth is, and GW will begin to fail.

What part of their new trade agreement improves on anything? Concerns over user privacy? I call BS on that garbage. Their site is no more secure than Dicebucket or Hoard o' Bits, and actually both are probably more secure because they use paypal, which is incredibly secure.

As for packaging... come on. Seriously? Do you seriously think that people who buy GW products do not know what a GW product looks like? I bought a dozen Tesla Carbine for my converted Immortals. I suppose because they didn't come slathered in the Games Workshop logo I can't really be sure that they actually are Games Workshop products.

It's basically going to start to force players to other retailers from let's say malifax / priveteer press or the less reputable ones from like Russia or China who straight up copy things is how I see this.

Also, if you just introduce people to the game and give them no one to play with as the stores with tables are apparently closing, where are people supposed to play at?

Most kids can afford some mini's, fewer can afford a gaming board and even fewer have a place where many people can stand around to play.

It's especially bad in Japan here as finding a place to play is probably the hardest part. Not everyone has a big enough house and if there's no central place, you really aren't ever gonna find others with the same interest. We've got some kids that want to play but we'll never play at their houses cause it's cramped like heck or their parents just don't want a bunch of strangers cluttering up the place for like 7-8 HOURS at a time. It's not like we go over for tea and discussions that last an hr; 2 games take an entire afternoon. People got places to go and parents want their privacy.

I'm the adult in the house so I can totally do w/e I want and thank goodness my wife lets me but I know 2-3 guys whose wives hate having so many people over especially people with huge boxes of stuff. The cleaning will take forever! (my wife already HAS to clean the house for 3-4 hrs before she lets anyone over eventhough I've told her none of the guys that come to play care at all what the house looks like)

I love the bit in the full release that says that they are protecting the investment made by bricks & mortar company's in the gaming community. Is this the same community that now gets to go to a one man run cupboard, that has no space to allow you to play games or sit and paint? Or the LGS that is deciding not to stock their stuff due to all the stupid restrictions placed on them?

 Wolfstan wrote:
I love the bit in the full release that says that they are protecting the investment made by bricks & mortar company's in the gaming community. Is this the same community that now gets to go to a one man run cupboard, that has no space to allow you to play games or sit and paint? Or the LGS that is deciding not to stock their stuff due to all the stupid restrictions placed on them?

I think you misunderstand the model.

The one man GW store are there to generate new customers and create brand presence.

As customers get intergrated into the hobby they are exposed to more common knowledge of discounts, independent stores with playing space and of clubs. All of these things allow the customer to develop at his own pace and add to the existing community, leaving GW to concentrate on new customers.

If GW do not support the FLGs then they will not support the product. Generally speaking online stores have gutted High/Main Street locations of the majority of specialist shops; I mean have you tried to by a decent book or album recently, I don't mind paying a premium to get it convieniently but its pretty difficult outside of a big city here. The overriding desire for massively discounted product is just as true in wargaming but this would ultimately neuter new player generation as it stands at the moment, or at least one very important strand of it from GWs perspective.

The arguement that GW is trying to prevent independent games stores always makes me laugh as if this was a goal it would be so easy to achieve it would have happens a decade ago.

Ok I see what you are getting at, but aren't a lot of FLGS not happy with GW at the moment due to all their restrictions and therefore are cutting back on their stock. Based on what I've read before on this site.

 notprop wrote:

 Wolfstan wrote:
I love the bit in the full release that says that they are protecting the investment made by bricks & mortar company's in the gaming community. Is this the same community that now gets to go to a one man run cupboard, that has no space to allow you to play games or sit and paint? Or the LGS that is deciding not to stock their stuff due to all the stupid restrictions placed on them?

I think you misunderstand the model.

The one man GW store are there to generate new customers and create brand presence.

As customers get intergrated into the hobby they are exposed to more common knowledge of discounts, independent stores with playing space and of clubs. All of these things allow the customer to develop at his own pace and add to the existing community, leaving GW to concentrate on new customers.

If GW do not support the FLGs then they will not support the product. Generally speaking online stores have gutted High/Main Street locations of the majority of specialist shops; I mean have you tried to by a decent book or album recently, I don't mind paying a premium to get it convieniently but its pretty difficult outside of a big city here. The overriding desire for massively discounted product is just as true in wargaming but this would ultimately neuter new player generation as it stands at the moment, or at least one very important strand of it from GWs perspective.

The arguement that GW is trying to prevent independent games stores always makes me laugh as if this was a goal it would be so easy to achieve it would have happens a decade ago.

Sorry notprop, I disagree. The Internet vs B&M argument has been found false elsewhere. Stores exist to serve customers. If customers want something then generally that service will exist. It is not the fault of Internet stores that many B&M store owners are not successful. Its just a convenient excuse.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

 Che-Vito wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
You know, there's a lot of negativity around GW, but I think this might be the first time that I've ever heard them referred to as socialist.

Since when would that be a bad thing...?

It's just the general confusion with American's definition of socialism I think.

If companies take all the liberties the unbridled US system gives them and play hardball for profits, its socialism.

If they get thumbed by EU-regulation and forced to compete fairly and provide customers with choice, it's also socialism.

Begs the question of what is NOT socialism?

The oxymoron of a "socialist company" non-withstanding.

 notprop wrote:

If GW do not support the FLGs then they will not support the product.

And the best way to support the FLGS is to keep them in the dark about new releases, limit their access to key parts of your product range, restrict how they can sell your product, and forbid them from competing with online discounters...

rich1231 wrote:

 notprop wrote:

 Wolfstan wrote:
I love the bit in the full release that says that they are protecting the investment made by bricks & mortar company's in the gaming community. Is this the same community that now gets to go to a one man run cupboard, that has no space to allow you to play games or sit and paint? Or the LGS that is deciding not to stock their stuff due to all the stupid restrictions placed on them?

I think you misunderstand the model.

The one man GW store are there to generate new customers and create brand presence.

As customers get intergrated into the hobby they are exposed to more common knowledge of discounts, independent stores with playing space and of clubs. All of these things allow the customer to develop at his own pace and add to the existing community, leaving GW to concentrate on new customers.

If GW do not support the FLGs then they will not support the product. Generally speaking online stores have gutted High/Main Street locations of the majority of specialist shops; I mean have you tried to by a decent book or album recently, I don't mind paying a premium to get it convieniently but its pretty difficult outside of a big city here. The overriding desire for massively discounted product is just as true in wargaming but this would ultimately neuter new player generation as it stands at the moment, or at least one very important strand of it from GWs perspective.

The arguement that GW is trying to prevent independent games stores always makes me laugh as if this was a goal it would be so easy to achieve it would have happens a decade ago.

Sorry notprop, I disagree. The Internet vs B&M argument has been found false elsewhere. Stores exist to serve customers. If customers want something then generally that service will exist. It is not the fault of Internet stores that many B&M store owners are not successful. Its just a convenient excuse.

I disagree, of course the internet versus B&M have affected massively the B&M stores, how else would you explain the 68billion spent online in 2011, did consumers get this money from no where?, of course not. And yes stores exsist to serve, but so do internet stores. I really dont understand what you are getting at?

Also, isnt your bricks and mortar store severely lacking in GW items and can pick up off the shelves?, was talking to a local chap last night and he said he will not go back there unless there is a marked improvement even though he is very local to you, one of the reasons cited was he could never collect items from you as hardly anything in store?.

MarkyMark wrote:

I disagree, of course the internet versus B&M have affected massively the B&M stores, how else would you explain the 68billion spent online in 2011, did consumers get this money from no where?, of course not. And yes stores exsist to serve, but so do internet stores. I really dont understand what you are getting at?

How many of the bigger online stores serving the gaming community at the moment also have a physical store location?

In the UK?, every online store will have a bricks and mortar store as per the t&c's of GW uk

So where is the problem with online stores?

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Che-Vito wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
You know, there's a lot of negativity around GW, but I think this might be the first time that I've ever heard them referred to as socialist.

Since when would that be a bad thing...?

It's just the general confusion with American's definition of socialism I think.

If companies take all the liberties the unbridled US system gives them and play hardball for profits, its socialism.

If they get thumbed by EU-regulation and forced to compete fairly and provide customers with choice, it's also socialism.

Begs the question of what is NOT socialism?

The oxymoron of a "socialist company" non-withstanding.

When it is complete and total ANARCHY.

That or a purely capitalistic system with no government oversight nor backing.

Ok, but how many of those stores would have a bricks and mortar shop given the choice?, very few I would say. Plus if you read back up the subject wasnt purely gaming stores/websites

The subject of this thread is gaming stores.

And the simple fact is that around the world, most of the more successful online stores are tied to physical shops. This idea that online only businesses are killing it for everyone else is nonsense... The big competition isn't the online only guy. It's another store.

Whether that store is in another suburb or another country only makes a difference if the supplier is in the habit of artificially inflating prices in certain areas.

MarkyMark wrote:

rich1231 wrote:

 notprop wrote:

 Wolfstan wrote:
I love the bit in the full release that says that they are protecting the investment made by bricks & mortar company's in the gaming community. Is this the same community that now gets to go to a one man run cupboard, that has no space to allow you to play games or sit and paint? Or the LGS that is deciding not to stock their stuff due to all the stupid restrictions placed on them?

I think you misunderstand the model.

The one man GW store are there to generate new customers and create brand presence.

As customers get intergrated into the hobby they are exposed to more common knowledge of discounts, independent stores with playing space and of clubs. All of these things allow the customer to develop at his own pace and add to the existing community, leaving GW to concentrate on new customers.

If GW do not support the FLGs then they will not support the product. Generally speaking online stores have gutted High/Main Street locations of the majority of specialist shops; I mean have you tried to by a decent book or album recently, I don't mind paying a premium to get it convieniently but its pretty difficult outside of a big city here. The overriding desire for massively discounted product is just as true in wargaming but this would ultimately neuter new player generation as it stands at the moment, or at least one very important strand of it from GWs perspective.

The arguement that GW is trying to prevent independent games stores always makes me laugh as if this was a goal it would be so easy to achieve it would have happens a decade ago.

Sorry notprop, I disagree. The Internet vs B&M argument has been found false elsewhere. Stores exist to serve customers. If customers want something then generally that service will exist. It is not the fault of Internet stores that many B&M store owners are not successful. Its just a convenient excuse.

I disagree, of course the internet versus B&M have affected massively the B&M stores, how else would you explain the 68billion spent online in 2011, did consumers get this money from no where?, of course not. And yes stores exsist to serve, but so do internet stores. I really dont understand what you are getting at?

Also, isnt your bricks and mortar store severely lacking in GW items and can pick up off the shelves?, was talking to a local chap last night and he said he will not go back there unless there is a marked improvement even though he is very local to you, one of the reasons cited was he could never collect items from you as hardly anything in store?.

I'd suggest that some customers wanted to buy online in many cases. Good B&M stores can still Flourish. The stores are there because customers want them. No other reason.

Regarding the TTN store I am not sure what you are alluding to. We have more stock in the store than any other store in the UK and purchases are also available from the warehouse via the sales staff. Not really the topic of this thread though.

Just to add, can you imagine who the winner is if all B&M game stores point at only Internet store woes?

MarkyMark wrote:
Ok, but how many of those stores would have a bricks and mortar shop given the choice?, very few I would say. Plus if you read back up the subject wasnt purely gaming stores/websites

I would say only some would have the ability to be a good LFGS while being an online store. For example, the Warstore IS A FRICKIN' BARN. In the middle of nowhere. They have a team of teenagers and young adults (and a few people of latino descent as well) helping do the work, but they do not have the capacity to host anyone since the wargame clients on the East End of Long Island are nearly nonexistent; most of the funky bunch on the East End are farmers, rednecks, and rich people.

Case in point:

rich1231 wrote:
I'd suggest that some customers wanted to buy online in many cases. Good B&M stores can still Flourish. The stores are there because customers want them. No other reason.

Regarding the TTN store I am not sure what you are alluding to. We have more stock in the store than any other store in the UK and purchases are also available from the warehouse via the sales staff. Not really the topic of this thread though.

Just to add, can you imagine who the winner is if all B&M game stores point at only Internet store woes?

I was more concentrating on your comment about unsuccesful business owners,

Also about stock, just had a quick look at the new daemons on your website, it seems the only 2 models from the whole range in stock is one slaanesh and nurgle I think herald, everything else is out f stock. I am pretty sure my friend was talking about 40k items and warhammer FB rather then any other gaming systems. Just comparing your succesful b&m store to your comments made.

We don't tend to keep GW product in store, we make far more margin on other products and like to concentrate on those ranges. That would have been explained to your "Friend" as well. Its doing great thanks btw, turning a profit and paying for extensive building works etc.

O think you guys went wayyyy off track but i do love Warones comparison with the warstore.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
You're safe anyway. This is US only at this point.

Like Australia - a lot of Japanese customers and retailers actually source products from the US. I know one for certain who purchases from a distributor based in California and in doing so they are able to save a substantial amount over the existing GW distributor for the Japanese market. I wouldn't be surprised to here a lot of other smaller markets do similar actions...otherwise it wouldn't have made too much sense for GW to bother putting it in the contracts.

__________________________


For any Canadian businesses who might be interested in pursuing the issue, it looks as though there might be grounds to challenge the contract under the Competition Act, in particular Section 77's Market Restriction clause.

“market restriction” means any practice whereby a supplier of a product, as a condition of supplying the product to a customer, requires that customer to supply any product only in a defined market, or exacts a penalty of any kind from the customer if he supplies any product outside a defined market;

Prior case history has defined the internet as a distinct market, as well as the obvious cross border restriction.

Market restriction

(3) Where, on application by the Commissioner or a person granted leave under section 103.1, the Tribunal finds that market restriction, because it is engaged in by a major supplier of a product or because it is widespread in relation to a product, is likely to substantially lessen competition in relation to the product, the Tribunal may make an order directed to all or any of the suppliers against whom an order is sought prohibiting them from continuing to engage in market restriction and containing any other requirement that, in its opinion, is necessary to restore or stimulate competition in relation to the product.

The nature of the trade agreement quite clearly is to eliminate competition both on the internet as well as in overseas markets like Australia. The Competition Act fairly clearly prohibits these actions by dominant suppliers of a given product class (which GW would be as the market dominance level that they set out was 35%). As I understand it, there are minimal costs related to filing a complaint - and the commission handles it as a neutral party, so there shouldn't be any litigation costs either.

Looking into the Act and complaints process this morning. No cost to file a complaint, which is great. No harm in a bunch of us filing either

http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/eic/site/cb-bc.nsf/frm-eng/GHÉT-7TDNA5

I have no problem with GW making business decisions to improve their profits, but only so long as those decisions are in fact legal.

This has effected the miniwargaming store:
http://breacher18.com/heretics/

 notprop wrote:

 Wolfstan wrote:
I love the bit in the full release that says that they are protecting the investment made by bricks & mortar company's in the gaming community. Is this the same community that now gets to go to a one man run cupboard, that has no space to allow you to play games or sit and paint? Or the LGS that is deciding not to stock their stuff due to all the stupid restrictions placed on them?

I think you misunderstand the model.

The one man GW store are there to generate new customers and create brand presence.

As customers get intergrated into the hobby they are exposed to more common knowledge of discounts, independent stores with playing space and of clubs. All of these things allow the customer to develop at his own pace and add to the existing community, leaving GW to concentrate on new customers.

If GW do not support the FLGs then they will not support the product. Generally speaking online stores have gutted High/Main Street locations of the majority of specialist shops; I mean have you tried to by a decent book or album recently, I don't mind paying a premium to get it convieniently but its pretty difficult outside of a big city here. The overriding desire for massively discounted product is just as true in wargaming but this would ultimately neuter new player generation as it stands at the moment, or at least one very important strand of it from GWs perspective.

The arguement that GW is trying to prevent independent games stores always makes me laugh as if this was a goal it would be so easy to achieve it would have happens a decade ago.

You really misunderstand GWs stance versus the independenant game stores and how they want to operate going forward.

Open upna one man store as a factory for turning out new gamers. Bilk them for for their large initial purchases, rulebooks, paint sets, starter boxes, battallions... Push them off on a local store or club after a few months when their spending slows down, repeat.

They would eliminate the independant stores entirely if they could. They cant in places like the US though where they do not have the capital to roll out their factory stores across the country...not now, especially not 10 years ago.

The whole one man store thing which works in "conjunction" with local stores is a myth. If you talk to store owners, most gamers spend more in their first 3-6 months then they do in the next 3 years. Once GW has used them up and they start to become savvy to other products and prcies...GW wants to get rid of them

breacher18 wrote:
This has effected the miniwargaming store:
http://breacher18.com/heretics/

Bit late to the party here matey....

The most beautiful thing is when you have driven 2 hours and pull up to that barn. You walk inside and its like being in nerd heaven.

 WarOne wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Ok, but how many of those stores would have a bricks and mortar shop given the choice?, very few I would say. Plus if you read back up the subject wasnt purely gaming stores/websites

I would say only some would have the ability to be a good LFGS while being an online store. For example, the Warstore IS A FRICKIN' BARN. In the middle of nowhere. They have a team of teenagers and young adults (and a few people of latino descent as well) helping do the work, but they do not have the capacity to host anyone since the wargame clients on the East End of Long Island are nearly nonexistent; most of the funky bunch on the East End are farmers, rednecks, and rich people.

Case in point: