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 mikhaila wrote:



There is ALWAYS a lot of out of stocks from Privateer. Sometimes just a couple of dozen, more often a good percentage of the line. I try to stock all privateer models, and we re-order once a week, and can track our out of stocks. Every distributor has restock problems from them.

Its a good game and good line of figures. Yes, we can all get ahold of pp figures. NO, you can't ever get all of them. Many figures go out of stock for months.

Yeah, that's the same issues I've heard from all the LGS I purchase from, including online.
I've wondered if this is due to PP being gun shy about over staffing--perhaps due to a boom/bust cycle years ago. Still, makes our LGS rage pretty badly when he can't get stock of popular build items.

 AgeOfEgos wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:



There is ALWAYS a lot of out of stocks from Privateer. Sometimes just a couple of dozen, more often a good percentage of the line. I try to stock all privateer models, and we re-order once a week, and can track our out of stocks. Every distributor has restock problems from them.

Its a good game and good line of figures. Yes, we can all get ahold of pp figures. NO, you can't ever get all of them. Many figures go out of stock for months.

Yeah, that's the same issues I've heard from all the LGS I purchase from, including online.
I've wondered if this is due to PP being gun shy about over staffing--perhaps due to a boom/bust cycle years ago. Still, makes our LGS rage pretty badly when he can't get stock of popular build items.

I'd rather have that than have too many people on board. I'll gladly wait a few weeks for a model, knowing (as well as one can) that the company will still be around in a few years than have immediate satisfaction and have the company go under in a year or so. Not that any of that is knowable, but if it were, that's my preference.

Matney X wrote:

 AgeOfEgos wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:



There is ALWAYS a lot of out of stocks from Privateer. Sometimes just a couple of dozen, more often a good percentage of the line. I try to stock all privateer models, and we re-order once a week, and can track our out of stocks. Every distributor has restock problems from them.

Its a good game and good line of figures. Yes, we can all get ahold of pp figures. NO, you can't ever get all of them. Many figures go out of stock for months.

Yeah, that's the same issues I've heard from all the LGS I purchase from, including online.
I've wondered if this is due to PP being gun shy about over staffing--perhaps due to a boom/bust cycle years ago. Still, makes our LGS rage pretty badly when he can't get stock of popular build items.

I'd rather have that than have too many people on board. I'll gladly wait a few weeks for a model, knowing (as well as one can) that the company will still be around in a few years than have immediate satisfaction and have the company go under in a year or so. Not that any of that is knowable, but if it were, that's my preference.

What?

One would think that you would prefer a company that can reliably keep stock chains going than one where there is a dearth of large numbers of SKUs after every major event that Privateer Press attends with stock for sale.

It's the same complaint I have with Corvus Belli really. Both companies need to get their act together when it comes to stock chains.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Matney X wrote:

 AgeOfEgos wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:



There is ALWAYS a lot of out of stocks from Privateer. Sometimes just a couple of dozen, more often a good percentage of the line. I try to stock all privateer models, and we re-order once a week, and can track our out of stocks. Every distributor has restock problems from them.

Its a good game and good line of figures. Yes, we can all get ahold of pp figures. NO, you can't ever get all of them. Many figures go out of stock for months.

Yeah, that's the same issues I've heard from all the LGS I purchase from, including online.
I've wondered if this is due to PP being gun shy about over staffing--perhaps due to a boom/bust cycle years ago. Still, makes our LGS rage pretty badly when he can't get stock of popular build items.

I'd rather have that than have too many people on board. I'll gladly wait a few weeks for a model, knowing (as well as one can) that the company will still be around in a few years than have immediate satisfaction and have the company go under in a year or so. Not that any of that is knowable, but if it were, that's my preference.

What?

One would think that you would prefer a company that can reliably keep stock chains going than one where there is a dearth of large numbers of SKUs after every major event that Privateer Press attends with stock for sale.

It's the same complaint I have with Corvus Belli really. Both companies need to get their act together when it comes to stock chains.

What I said was based on the idea that PP has delays and back-ordered stuff because they're understaffed, and that they're understaffed because they don't want to be overstaffed in the event that their sales drop significantly off and they have to lay people off.

I didn't say I like waiting.

But I'm just one customer, one with limited hobby funds (aren't we all?), and more than once I've run into the problem of wanting something from X company, saving my money toward it, and then X company goes out of business. I still want the item, but now I have to hope someone is selling it on eBay.

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
would commision painters be affected? iv been thinking, they ar ethe end user and selling second hand products, but in that case they CANT hold a trade account anyway, but you can bet your $$ they have already got a way around this

Here's an incomplete list of the things you can do with your Citadel miniatures if you do not have a trade agreement with GW:

1. Bury the miniatures in the back yard, dig them up in 1 years time and sell them.
2. Melt them on an open flame, allow the plastic to cool, and sell the plastic lump.
3. Eat the miniature and attempt to digest it. Sell whatever is remaining after all is said and done.
4. Paint extremely dirty words all over a miniature, and sell it.
5. Glue a chaos head, tau body, ork arms and tyranid "legs" together, and sell it.
6. Shoot the mini execution style. Sell what remains.
7. Fuse many minis together into a flower pot, grow plants, and sell it.
8. Buy a Forgeworld Abbadon mini. Create a small, pink dress for him, and sell them.
9. Create props for your minis - like little cigarette packs, beer bottles, syringes, etc and sell them as a stoner 40k mod.
10. Put your entire army together on your shelf. Make labels for each one so that each mini represents one of your friends. Take one of the minis which represents a friend you want to mess with. Separate him
from the group. When the friend asks "Why isn't he with the others?" You reply "Because he just doesn't belong." Sell only the mini that was separate.
11. Cram minis into potatoes. Plant the potatoes, and see if the potatoes that spawn have more minis inside them.
12. Put so much citadel paint on a model, that is literally becomes a round ball of paint, and sell it.
13. Mod each ultramarine so that he's shooting the bird. Sell them.

 BitWraith wrote:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
would commision painters be affected? iv been thinking, they ar ethe end user and selling second hand products, but in that case they CANT hold a trade account anyway, but you can bet your $$ they have already got a way around this

Here's an incomplete list of the things you can do with your Citadel miniatures if you do not have a trade agreement with GW:

1. Bury the miniatures in the back yard, dig them up in 1 years time and sell them.
2. Melt them on an open flame, allow the plastic to cool, and sell the plastic lump.
3. Eat the miniature and attempt to digest it. Sell whatever is remaining after all is said and done.
4. Paint extremely dirty words all over a miniature, and sell it.
5. Glue a chaos head, tau body, ork arms and tyranid "legs" together, and sell it.
6. Shoot the mini execution style. Sell what remains.
7. Fuse many minis together into a flower pot, grow plants, and sell it.
8. Buy a Forgeworld Abbadon mini. Create a small, pink dress for him, and sell them.
9. Create props for your minis - like little cigarette packs, beer bottles, syringes, etc and sell them as a stoner 40k mod.
10. Put your entire army together on your shelf. Make labels for each one so that each mini represents one of your friends. Take one of the minis which represents a friend you want to mess with. Separate him
from the group. When the friend asks "Why isn't he with the others?" You reply "Because he just doesn't belong." Sell only the mini that was separate.
11. Cram minis into potatoes. Plant the potatoes, and see if the potatoes that spawn have more minis inside them.
12. Put so much citadel paint on a model, that is literally becomes a round ball of paint, and sell it.
13. Mod each ultramarine so that he's shooting the bird. Sell them.

Can you please start a new thread like this? It's so ridiculous, it deserves more attention.

Artists who buy minis, build and paint for the purposes of selling on ebay/forums might have their FLGS or whoever run afoul of the trade agreement issues.

Artists who only do actual commission work (ie no models bought "resold" for a specific job) aren't likely to have any issues.

'Artists'/studios that paint 'standard' armies to sell (to folk who just want Ultramarines or whatever) and so buy & paint in advance may well be affected as they may well buy enough volume to be noticed

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
'Artists'/studios that paint 'standard' armies to sell (to folk who just want Ultramarines or whatever) and so buy & paint in advance may well be affected as they may well buy enough volume to be noticed

I'll buy an entire army of Ultramarines, paint them, put the army on eBay, and send GW a link to the auction. I don't have any contractual agreements with GW.

That's the thing

YOU aren't effected

but the store that sells to you if they know, or in GW's opinion could be expected to know that you are a 'reseller'

like they sell a ton of stuff to you evey month if you are a big comission studio (eg Worthy Painting),

or you pay with a CC marked as 'bob's army painting'

they could have their trade account cancelled

(so no more big discounts for them.... no more point in them selling GW stuff..... and if that tips their store below profit sales wise the store closes)

PhantomViper wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:

There is ALWAYS a lot of out of stocks from Privateer. Sometimes just a couple of dozen, more often a good percentage of the line. I try to stock all privateer models, and we re-order once a week, and can track our out of stocks. Every distributor has restock problems from them.

Its a good game and good line of figures. Yes, we can all get ahold of pp figures. NO, you can't ever get all of them. Many figures go out of stock for months.

I stand corrected then, thanks for your insight as always.

I find it odd that none of the shops over here have said anything about those problems nor have any of the players that I know of. And believe me back in 2010-2011, people WERE complaining loud and frequently about it.

And since we have your attention, could you perhaps confirm or deny Matt's claims that direct only orders from GW are capped at 500$?

That's a yes and a no.

Yes, GW has put it in writing that they limit a shop to 500.00 in direct orders per month. This gives them the option of enforcing that cap. Without such a rule, it's obviously hard to enforce it.

500.00 in special orders is actually quite huge. 95% or more shops will never even be aware of this cap. When I have had to go over that cap, I have never had a problem getting the merchandise I need to sell to my customers, assuming it is in stock.

However.....(and this is my opinion based on 2 decades of dealing with GW, not direct statements from GW. )

GW does not want to see stores ordering a lot of Direct only items for sales and use outside of that store. A customer is doing a dwarf army and needs a ton of slayers, hammerers, and iron breakers? not a problem. But in the case where GW knows ,or suspects, that the store is going to be selling these items online at a discount, or breaking them up for bits, or other reasons that are not to supply the needs of your customers at your BM location, then they may decide to limit what you can order, and enforce that 500.00 limit.

I've noticed this topic popping up all the time lately, as if it is something new. It really isn't. It's only become a hot topic recently. I actually had to go look at my terms of trade and talk with GW again, because I only vaguely recalled it. They certainly haven't limited me when i needed to place orders for my store, and i know we go over 500.00 in items from time to time.

And....(again, IMHO), there are reasons for the limit that make sense, when you understand the way goods are sold, and how GW wants them sold. There are quite a few retailers out there GW wont deal with, or who don't want to work with GW directly. And they still want the GW product range. Some of them owe GW money and were cut off, others violate GW's terms of sale, like selling on a shopping cart. These stores buy from distributors, but don't have access to GW direct items at discount. Many of them try to work through stores that do have a GW account to aquire the things they want. (I've had dozens of people approach me over the years.)

GW doesn't want one of its accounts buying a ton of direct only product, only to pass it on to re-sellers, who can't get it for themselves. The 500.00 cap lets them do that.

And GW is by far not the only manufacturer to have limits on product. I have very strict limits on what I can order for each of my stores from Wizards of the Coast for example.

So to recap:
1) Yes it exists.
2) Its going to depend a lot on your business model as to whether it affects your store.
3) This is a non-issue for most stores.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
That's the thing

YOU aren't effected

but the store that sells to you if they know, or in GW's opinion could be expected to know that you are a 'reseller'

like they sell a ton of stuff to you evey month if you are a big comission studio (eg Worthy Painting),

or you pay with a CC marked as 'bob's army painting'

they could have their trade account cancelled

(so no more big discounts for them.... no more point in them selling GW stuff..... and if that tips their store below profit sales wise the store closes)

Then GW deserves to go out of business as one of the stupidest manufacturers in history. The Music and Movie industries can't even take on resellers, and they're actually dealing with licensed products. Protecting themselves against the actions of the buyer of physical goods is an unprecedentedly stupid concept.

Like I said in an earlier post (more or less), if GW is so hell-bent on shutting down retailers, there are easier ways to accomplish that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a novel and equally idiotic idea: Why don't LGS make everyone who purchase GW products sign a contract that states:

I, the undersigned, do hereby promise that I am not a :

1. Reseller or GW products, painted or otherwise.
2. A bits seller who will sell this retail product in pieces.

Signature: ___________________________

This way, GW can't suspect them of selling to known "black market dealers of plastic stuff". And, the people who sign that document can sell their stuff anyway (I would).

wufai wrote:
The title of the OP needs to be changed. The more concerned topic the interent has touched on is

"GW is limiting its direct sales products for FLGS (except GW stores) to $500/month"

and

"GW is banning website in North America to sell GW products (except for GW website)"

Both of these policies IS unfair trade practice. I know GW owns the creation/production/distribution of its products but to do so after FLGS spends time and effort to build up your customer base and then hang them out like that is bad business.

I recall dakkadakka was once a FLAG but closed down due to GW's 'its their products so they can do whatever they want' business policy too.

If this is indeed the case in the US, than I can for one tell you from my past experiences that what GW is doing here is definitely in violation of the law. I once worked for a very large corporation that primarily moved through dealer channels (similar to how GW uses FLGS). That company decided they wanted to make more profit so decided to start selling directly to end users to keep the profit and cut out the dealers. They were then summarily sued by multiple dealers (six to be exact) and lost EVERY SINGLE case in court. The judgement was that any sales made directly by the company, then had to have a margin paid to a dealer somewhere. So now the company had the pleasure of the sales expense and had to still give the dealers the margins.

GW feeling they have the right to limit independent stockists and not applying it at their store levels is definitely grounds for a lawsuit. Sorry, but in the US, if you have retail locations (whether owned by the manufacturer or independent) they ALL have to have the same distribution terms (i.e., even GW stores have to be limited to $500/month in direct orders). Otherwise, if it is challenged in court, I would bet dollars to donuts GW would lose the case hands down based on my past experience. This is the very definition of unfair trade practice. Sorry GW, but whoever advised you on US law here doesn't know what the heck they are doing. I worked for a six billion dollar company with a lot bigger legal staff than you and they lost every single case in court (and a lot of our attorneys lost their positions after this as well).

Having someone sign such a contract doesn't in any way absolve you from blame.

But GW is not going to care if I sell a bunch of models each month to someone who paints and resells them. Although I'm sure someone will come up with a scenario where they do get upset.

Example: Bob the Painter spends 300.00 on 300.00 in models at my store, paints the armor and sells to a friend for 500.00. GW doesn't care.

Example 2: Bob advertises that he paints armies. You pick out the army, Bob charges a painting fee and the cost of the models - 20% discount. He buys the models from me at a 30% discount. Bob buys 20 armies a month like this and has a group of trained monkeys painting them. GW might care. Bob is actually doing the selling now, not me, making my store a distributor of product. Scale is larger, discount involved, etc.

Example 3: Bob paints models, sometimes. Bob spends 1k at my shop each month for a hefty discount, and sells some painted and some unpainted models on Ebay. He gets battleforces and breaks them up Kiss my trade account goodbye when GW catches up to him, and then links it to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wayshuba wrote:

wufai wrote:
The title of the OP needs to be changed. The more concerned topic the interent has touched on is

"GW is limiting its direct sales products for FLGS (except GW stores) to $500/month"

and

"GW is banning website in North America to sell GW products (except for GW website)"

Both of these policies IS unfair trade practice. I know GW owns the creation/production/distribution of its products but to do so after FLGS spends time and effort to build up your customer base and then hang them out like that is bad business.

I recall dakkadakka was once a FLAG but closed down due to GW's 'its their products so they can do whatever they want' business policy too.

If this is indeed the case in the US, than I can for one tell you from my past experiences that what GW is doing here is definitely in violation of the law. I once worked for a very large corporation that primarily moved through dealer channels (similar to how GW uses FLGS). That company decided they wanted to make more profit so decided to start selling directly to end users to keep the profit and cut out the dealers. They were then summarily sued by multiple dealers (six to be exact) and lost EVERY SINGLE case in court. The judgement was that any sales made directly by the company, then had to have a margin paid to a dealer somewhere. So now the company had the pleasure of the sales expense and had to still give the dealers the margins.

GW feeling they have the right to limit independent stockists and not applying it at their store levels is definitely grounds for a lawsuit. Sorry, but in the US, if you have retail locations (whether owned by the manufacturer or independent) they ALL have to have the same distribution terms (i.e., even GW stores have to be limited to $500/month in direct orders). Otherwise, if it is challenged in court, I would bet dollars to donuts GW would lose the case hands down based on my past experience. This is the very definition of unfair trade practice. Sorry GW, but whoever advised you on US law here doesn't know what the heck they are doing. I worked for a six billion dollar company with a lot bigger legal staff than you and they lost every single case in court (and a lot of our attorneys lost their positions after this as well).

Not so cut and dried as you make it out to be. Different industries, different rules, and you don't know all the facts of how it is done. For instance, You can order items on the GW website, and have them shipped for free to be picked up at a GW store. The store isn't selling the item, the website is.

And the 500.00 thing is really not an issue, except that Mini Wargaming brought it up and now everyone is outraged about it. I've never heard of any retailer complain about it before this.

 mikhaila wrote:


So to recap:
1) Yes it exists.
2) Its going to depend a lot on your business model as to whether it affects your store.
3) This is a non-issue for most stores.

Thanks for your experience and perspective as always.

Plus, in many cases, the guidelines are futher modifed by the benefits of the stockist program, at various levels. The rules for the stockist program were not included in the new document, as they are a separate agreement.

 mikhaila wrote:
Not so cut and dried as you make it out to be. Different industries, different rules, and you don't know all the facts of how it is done. For instance, You can order items on the GW website, and have them shipped for free to be picked up at a GW store. The store isn't selling the item, the website is.

And the 500.00 thing is really not an issue, except that Mini Wargaming brought it up and now everyone is outraged about it. I've never heard of any retailer complain about it before this.

US law isn't based on industry, it is based on general business in particular. A manufacturer with retail locations has every right to cut out the channel completely so they can control the end game, but if they have both their own retail locations and independent locations they MUST have the same terms extended to them otherwise it is considered an unfair trade practice. For example, Apple stores and Apple resellers like Best Buy get the exact same terms at retail level. As for facts, if an independent stockist could order whatever amount they wanted before and now they can't but GW retail locations still can, it is a blatant unfair trade practice. GW would not be able to say in court it is because they only manufacturer a limited inventory when they are clearly favoring their own retail locations.

As an aside, I can tell you for a fact, the "different industry or unique industry" perspective does not work in a US court of law. My old company tried that one and it was dead the minute it was said in court.

Here's another bombshell I'll drop here. GW preventing the use of images for authorized resellers on their sites is also illegal under US Copyright Fair Use laws (see "Copyright Law, Title 17 Chapter 1 §113(c)"). This has been challenged all the way to the Supreme Court level (ibid "Sony Corp. of America v. Universal City Studios, Inc., 464 US 417, (1984)" and "Harper & Row, Publishers, Inc. v. Nation Enterprises, 471 US 539 - Supreme Court 1985"). I'm sure GW knows they can not legally stop someone selling their product from using product images on their website, so they take the "if you use our images we will not sell to you approach." Either way, both of these tactics are heavy handed and, if challenged in a court of law, GW would stand a good chance of losing the case (especially the fair use of images since the precedent in the US has been set by a Supreme Court decision).

Fact is, this trade practice of GW seems like it smells because they are very much playing in the grey area of the law here, and in some cases, may have just crossed it with their latest trade update.

The thing is, they do treat their stores the same.

GW pitcairn islands and GW stevenage both sell models in their brick and mortar and if you order online you can get delivered there but you're not buying from those stores online. Just because the offer a better delivery service doesn't mean it's uncompetitive.

Similarly GW will not sell to bit sellers directly and expect the same from those distributors they sell to.

Every company with an eye on the profit margin will act in their best interestes. If their legal team say "we can put this clause in and it may not apply in 12 months due to case X" why not put it in?
Case X may not be decided for a year and even then laws are not retroactive. If the case goes in the direction GW wants then they are more than justified in putting that clause in as it turns out it was in the spirit of the law.

Wayshuba wrote:
I'm sure GW knows they can not legally stop someone selling their product from using product images on their website, so they take the "if you use our images we will not sell to you approach."

Well, no, they get around it by forbidding online selling, at which point whether or not you are using their images becomes moot.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
GW pitcairn islands and GW stevenage both sell models in their brick and mortar and if you order online you can get delivered there but you're not buying from those stores online. Just because the offer a better delivery service doesn't mean it's uncompetitive.

Better than what, exactly? Buying from a 3rd party online and having it delivered directly to your door? Buying direct from GW and having it come directly to your door? Special ordering from your FLGS and having it delivered there?

To be honest, it seems like an inferior delivery service to order it online and then have to travel across town to my FLGS to pick it up. The only benefit I can see to it would be they would probably have someone there to sign for the package, in case you were at work or something.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Similarly GW will not sell to bit sellers directly and expect the same from those distributors they sell to.

I have quite a few receipts that say otherwise.

They won't give you a trade account, but they'll quite happily sell to you.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The thing is, they do treat their stores the same.

GW pitcairn islands and GW stevenage both sell models in their brick and mortar and if you order online you can get delivered there but you're not buying from those stores online. Just because the offer a better delivery service doesn't mean it's uncompetitive.

Similarly GW will not sell to bit sellers directly and expect the same from those distributors they sell to.

Every company with an eye on the profit margin will act in their best interestes. If their legal team say "we can put this clause in and it may not apply in 12 months due to case X" why not put it in?
Case X may not be decided for a year and even then laws are not retroactive. If the case goes in the direction GW wants then they are more than justified in putting that clause in as it turns out it was in the spirit of the law.

The law isn't retroactive... it exists today. Also, if this were challenged, GW would have to prove that no GW store, once implemented, ever ordered more than $500 in direct goods (which we know isn't the case since a lot of the new releases are falling under direct goods) in a month if they are limiting it to independent resellers.

Also, the stores you mention above sounds like the UK. I don't know if the same laws apply there, I am talking about the laws in the US here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

Wayshuba wrote:
I'm sure GW knows they can not legally stop someone selling their product from using product images on their website, so they take the "if you use our images we will not sell to you approach."

Well, no, they get around it by forbidding online selling, at which point whether or not you are using their images becomes moot.

They can't forbid online selling if they are also selling online. Clear cut violation of unfair trade practice.

They can - corporate is a separate entity from the B&Ms. The B&Ms don't sell online.

 insaniak wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Similarly GW will not sell to bit sellers directly and expect the same from those distributors they sell to.

I have quite a few receipts that say otherwise.

They won't give you a trade account, but they'll quite happily sell to you.

Well they could refuse to sell to you if they knew you were a bitz seller when you walk into the store or order online.
Do they know you're a bitz seller?


I'm not sure about €500 of restricted sales but there are lots of online order only items you cannot get in a GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Matney X wrote:


Better than what, exactly? Buying from a 3rd party online and having it delivered directly to your door? Buying direct from GW and having it come directly to your door? Special ordering from your FLGS and having it delivered there?

To be honest, it seems like an inferior delivery service to order it online and then have to travel across town to my FLGS to pick it up. The only benefit I can see to it would be they would probably have someone there to sign for the package, in case you were at work or something.

I order from wayland mostly but when I get GW exclusive stuff I get it delivered to my local shop it gets to me faster (usually 3-4 working days) and I don't have to pay for delivery. Wayland are great and so much better than maelstrom ever were but they are not that quick and I have to pay for the delivery.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Well they could refuse to sell to you if they knew you were a bitz seller when you walk into the store or order online.

They could, yes. And given that my shipping address includes the business name that I have been selling bits under since 2003, they've certainly had every opportunity to do so. They never have.

That's just a part of what makes this whole thing so ridiculous: Bits sellers are killing the FLGS, and so must be stamped out... er... unless they buy directly from GW... because that's so much better for the FLGS.

Somehow.

rigeld2 wrote:
They can - corporate is a separate entity from the B&Ms. The B&Ms don't sell online.

It is really they might be able to, but more importantly until challenged...it wont change and GW can run rough shot over who they like.

Because GW operates both retail and manufacturing as well as distributes to independent manufacturers they have created a legal framework which is know as dual distribution. In those situations, the retail side of the company must be treated in the same manner that independent retailers are treated in order to avoid the various anti-trust issues.

Most companies create a seperate corporate entity which handles the retail for them that has its own management (sort of like Forgeworld or the Black Library are seperate from GW Plc). Initially, they actually had that scenario in the US and GW US dealt with the retail and distribution in the US, while the manufacturing was managed under GW Plc out of England). During their cost cutting and mergers though, they moved the manufacturing under the same management arm as the retail in the US.

The market restriction then becomes more complicated. A manufacturer can restrict sales online to direct from the manufacturer only. They can also prohibit them entirely (not to include 3rd party of course as end users generally have the right to sell anything they buy). However, since now the same corporate entity both would be in charge of the direct from the manufacture sales and the GW corporate stores and be placing a restriction on independent retailers restricting them from selling their product online.

While that alone doesnt create an illegal situation, in an actual trial...or even through regulatory mediation, past cases have found comparable arrangements to be in breach of antitrust laws. The important thing to remember with those laws is that while they are in place to prevent trade abuses and monopoly conditions...the reason they were written is to protect the consumer.

Orktavius wrote:


Yup...that WEBSTORE called MINIWARGAMING.COM sure did sell $5000 worth of it OVER THE INTERNET. Thank you for proving my point as that is $5000 that could have gone to many different LOCAL independents and is the very reason why GW is changing their trade agreement. This isn't going after E-bay resellers, once you own your model you can do what you want with it and with it's bits. Who they are going after are companies like miniwargaming or the warstore or other online retailers that bits out their stock (lowering the perceived value of GW's product) and webstores in general as they severely damage the business of GW's brick and mortar only trade accounts.

As for the inane comments of "everyone needs characters" or mentioning conversion kits and (LOL) bloodbowl.... the most popular characters aren't direct only , it's not like your going to be buying 30 characters at a time. Same with conversion kits, how many of those do you really need...and more importantly than that, how many do you think get sold on a monthly basis? Do you REALLY believe the turnover is enough that GW should spend thousands of dollars storing enough extra conversion kits for it to be stocked by brick and mortar stores? The answer is a resounding bloody no it's not worth it, the sales don't justify the expense of stocking enough just like it doesn't justify the expense of stocking that much of pretty much anything on the direct order list.

As for bloodbowl and specialist games.....REALLY? You really want to use those as an example? Every one of those specialist games was overall only marginally more successful than dreadfleet, people play them for a time then go back to 40k or fantasy. Find one Brick and mortar retailer that consistently sells bloodbowl starters month after month that's not a web seller. I'm willing to bet you won't find one.

Effing really? Hi Welcome.

Glad I sold my Sisters and Marines years ago, Tomorrows War and Force on Force are way more fun to me personally.

By all means please do go on sock puppet, it really is fun watching you make a donkey cave out of yourself......

 mikhaila wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:

There is ALWAYS a lot of out of stocks from Privateer. Sometimes just a couple of dozen, more often a good percentage of the line. I try to stock all privateer models, and we re-order once a week, and can track our out of stocks. Every distributor has restock problems from them.

Its a good game and good line of figures. Yes, we can all get ahold of pp figures. NO, you can't ever get all of them. Many figures go out of stock for months.

I stand corrected then, thanks for your insight as always.

I find it odd that none of the shops over here have said anything about those problems nor have any of the players that I know of. And believe me back in 2010-2011, people WERE complaining loud and frequently about it.

And since we have your attention, could you perhaps confirm or deny Matt's claims that direct only orders from GW are capped at 500$?

That's a yes and a no.

Yes, GW has put it in writing that they limit a shop to 500.00 in direct orders per month. This gives them the option of enforcing that cap. Without such a rule, it's obviously hard to enforce it.

500.00 in special orders is actually quite huge. 95% or more shops will never even be aware of this cap. When I have had to go over that cap, I have never had a problem getting the merchandise I need to sell to my customers, assuming it is in stock.

However.....(and this is my opinion based on 2 decades of dealing with GW, not direct statements from GW. )

GW does not want to see stores ordering a lot of Direct only items for sales and use outside of that store. A customer is doing a dwarf army and needs a ton of slayers, hammerers, and iron breakers? not a problem. But in the case where GW knows ,or suspects, that the store is going to be selling these items online at a discount, or breaking them up for bits, or other reasons that are not to supply the needs of your customers at your BM location, then they may decide to limit what you can order, and enforce that 500.00 limit.

I've noticed this topic popping up all the time lately, as if it is something new. It really isn't. It's only become a hot topic recently. I actually had to go look at my terms of trade and talk with GW again, because I only vaguely recalled it. They certainly haven't limited me when i needed to place orders for my store, and i know we go over 500.00 in items from time to time.

And....(again, IMHO), there are reasons for the limit that make sense, when you understand the way goods are sold, and how GW wants them sold. There are quite a few retailers out there GW wont deal with, or who don't want to work with GW directly. And they still want the GW product range. Some of them owe GW money and were cut off, others violate GW's terms of sale, like selling on a shopping cart. These stores buy from distributors, but don't have access to GW direct items at discount. Many of them try to work through stores that do have a GW account to aquire the things they want. (I've had dozens of people approach me over the years.)

GW doesn't want one of its accounts buying a ton of direct only product, only to pass it on to re-sellers, who can't get it for themselves. The 500.00 cap lets them do that.

And GW is by far not the only manufacturer to have limits on product. I have very strict limits on what I can order for each of my stores from Wizards of the Coast for example.

So to recap:
1) Yes it exists.
2) Its going to depend a lot on your business model as to whether it affects your store.
3) This is a non-issue for most stores.

If the intention it just to stop shops direct-ordering on behalf of shops that they can't, it'd be caught under the "no reselling" part of the conditions i.e. sales are to end users only, not other customers. So I don't buy that line of reasoning.

The other thing is that even though this rule is in place but "probably" won't be used, it makes things difficult for shops that order in well over that limit regularly, as their business relies on GW letting them away with an obvious breach of policy. Whilst GW may not care, they may use it as an excuse to hurt a store they feel is doing too well or when they feel strategic advantage (like they are opening up a GW store in town). It means there's always the risk that that revenue stream will be taken off them at any notice, so even taking pre-orders becomes risky as you might suddenly be unable to get the stock.

 mikhaila wrote:
Lots of insightful stuff.

Again, I would like to thank you for sharing your experiences with us.

If the intention it just to stop shops direct-ordering on behalf of shops that they can't, it'd be caught under the "no reselling" part of the conditions i.e. sales are to end users only, not other customers. So I don't buy that line of reasoning.

The other thing is that even though this rule is in place but "probably" won't be used, it makes things difficult for shops that order in well over that limit regularly, as their business relies on GW letting them away with an obvious breach of policy. Whilst GW may not care, they may use it as an excuse to hurt a store they feel is doing too well or when they feel strategic advantage (like they are opening up a GW store in town). It means there's always the risk that that revenue stream will be taken off them at any notice, so even taking pre-orders becomes risky as you might suddenly be unable to get the stock.[

Catching a store re-selling direct product is always going to be difficult. Having the filtre of 500.00 a month helps that. Its the same reason I have a sign saying "We reserve the right to limit sales on certain products". People look at it and get confused. But there are times when having one customer scoop up all your stock on one item is bad for business. The sign is there for when we need it, so is the rule of 500.00 from GW.

As to a 'breach of policy', it isn't. The policy is GW's. It can be amended or changed at anytime. Any store dealing with GW easily knows where they stand. You have a sales rep to talk to you, and have a relationship with them. Its part of doing business. You know whether or not you can exceed that limit.

And frankly, there are probably less than half a dozen stores in the US that are going to exceed that 500.00 limit on a regular basis. This limit affects online sales mostly, not brick and mortar sales.

Besides Miniwargaming, who has anyone heard actually complain about this rule and claim that it cost them business? Large brick and mortar stores that can sell more than 500.00 in direct orders aren't affected. Their sales rep knows their sales numbers, and knows the store. The orders get placed. I haven't ever worried about selling too many GW models.

Larger stores are also generally higher level stockists. The terms of the stockist program give benefits that non stockists don't get. (Old news, been that way for decades in one form or another.) One aspect of that is yours sales rep having a lot of leeway in how much of a limited product you get. I was quite happy selling over a hundred copies of Space Hulk.

This is really a non-issue. The main problem for miniwargaming is that they are now affected by the North American trade policies, which didn't affect them when it was "US trade policies".