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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 02:29:13
Subject: Article on why women don't play 40k
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
New Zealand
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If you look around the net for gamer demographics you'll find women consistently rate 45% and above in terms of total gamer population, just because they aren't all grrrl gamers who take every opportunity to advertise themselves doesn't mean they aren't around. I myself lead a clan of around 120 members in APB:Reloaded, we have a pair of grrrlgamer types, and a large silent majority who prefer to keep their gender secret from the rest of the community. Not surprising as I've been forced to remove members who believed sexually graphic comments were appropriate as soon as they found out this particular members sex.
Unfortunately in spite of these demographics gamers still have the stereotype of being acne-riddled socially slowed teenage boys and sweaty neckbeard types neither of which are particularly endearing to the would-be femme-wargamer.
Biology has its role too, if I turn up for a game and find out my opponent is a cute girl (never happened) I'm much more likely to go easy on stuff like 'oh you forgot to declare that charge? no problem you can do it now instead', I'd rather she finishes the game wanting to play me again than say 'oh wow I totally destroyed that chick, they're so bad at games lol'. does that make me a sexist? a white knight? No, it makes me a single straight male.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/17 02:35:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 02:36:34
Subject: Article on why women don't play 40k
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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That depends. If you'd also do the same thing for a male gamer you knew was a newbie, I'd say that means you you want to be helpful towards people who you think are new to the game, which is an admirable trait-- it's just that maybe you're a bit too willing to think that women are new to the game (which can come to haunt you if you go too far with it and get owned by or piss off a veteran gamer because of it).
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/17 02:37:30
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 02:54:15
Subject: Re:Article on why women don't play 40k
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Secretive Dark Angels Veteran
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American stereotypes rear their ugly head. Here in London gamers tend to be relatively socialised, urbane and sophisticated.
There are male pursuits and there are female pursuits.
Why aren't there more women into Football and Wargaming? Same reason there aren't more men into Ballet and Knitting.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 03:01:25
Subject: Re:Article on why women don't play 40k
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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That's a bizarre way to look at things. I would prefer to say that most leisure pursuits are simply "human" pursuits. More and more, the gender norms are being changed on both sides-- for example, recently, the womens' bouts in mixed martial arts have become better rated than the men's bouts, meanwhile, for anyone who thinks fashion is a "womanly" thing, you haven't paid much attention to history have you?
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/03/17 03:03:23
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 03:10:38
Subject: Re:Article on why women don't play 40k
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Hellion Hitting and Running
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Women don't play Warhammer because it doesn't interest them, plain and simple. Believe me if there were groups of women wanting to play wargames in general but couldn't because of the boys club they would make a game marketed to girls. Manufacturers would not let such a large market slip through their fingers because of horny, smelly many beasts. If women were interested they would make their own game. Warhammer is a game made by men and made for men. Is it a surprise that the founders of warhammer are men and that the staff is pretty much all men?
Yes there are a few women who are interested in the game and some of them don't play because of the boys club but by far the majority of them that want to play will play. But game stores are not the only place to play and you hear about guys getting together at each others houses to play but you don't hear about girls having a girl night and playing warhammer.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 03:11:41
Subject: Re:Article on why women don't play 40k
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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lambsandlions wrote:Believe me if there were groups of women wanting to play wargames in general but couldn't because of the boys club they would make a game marketed to girls.
The free market doesn't work that way. It's run by people, not god. People with a lot of emotional, cultural, and historical baggage. It is inherently flawed because it is made up of and run by people who themselves are inherently flawed, because they're merely human. In the end, "the market" doesn't make the decision to develop and release a new product, or start a new business, or take advantage of a new market. A person does-- an entrepreneur. If no one is stepping up, then it just isn't happening even if there's a market. This is why "consumer confidence", "investor confidence", and so on are tracked as vital indicators of the market's health. Because neither consumers nor investors are rational agents; they're humans.
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This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2013/03/17 03:15:02
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 03:29:18
Subject: Re:Article on why women don't play 40k
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Hellion Hitting and Running
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Melissia wrote:That's a bizarre way to look at things.
I would prefer to say that most leisure pursuits are simply "human" pursuits. More and more, the gender norms are being changed on both sides-- for example, recently, the womens' bouts in mixed martial arts have become better rated than the men's bouts, meanwhile, for anyone who thinks fashion is a "womanly" thing, you haven't paid much attention to history have you?
But you agree that there are gender norms. Sure there is going to be cross over because nothing is simply black and white but for the most part women have thing they enjoy that are different than thing that men enjoy. You mention women's MMA getting better rated but you fail to mention that the audience is still predominantly male. And male and female pursuits do change with time. Historically men were more concerned with fashion but in this day and age fashion is almost exclusively women's territory. When people go down the red carpet all the men are wearing black suits while women are wearing everything from silk to feathers to meat. Fashion magazines for men are about picking a tie that matches your shirt or how to wear a watch while fashion magazines for women showcase new and exciting trends.
Men and women are just different.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 03:33:01
Subject: Re:Article on why women don't play 40k
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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lambsandlions wrote: Melissia wrote:That's a bizarre way to look at things.
I would prefer to say that most leisure pursuits are simply "human" pursuits. More and more, the gender norms are being changed on both sides-- for example, recently, the womens' bouts in mixed martial arts have become better rated than the men's bouts, meanwhile, for anyone who thinks fashion is a "womanly" thing, you haven't paid much attention to history have you?
But you agree that there are gender norms. Sure there is going to be cross over because nothing is simply black and white but for the most part women have thing they enjoy that are different than thing that men enjoy. You mention women's MMA getting better rated but you fail to mention that the audience is still predominantly male. And male and female pursuits do change with time. Historically men were more concerned with fashion but in this day and age fashion is almost exclusively women's territory. When people go down the red carpet all the men are wearing black suits while women are wearing everything from silk to feathers to meat. Fashion magazines for men are about picking a tie that matches your shirt or how to wear a watch while fashion magazines for women showcase new and exciting trends.
Men and women are just different.
Also you have to look at the reason women's MMA has had it's recent boon? Ronda Rousey. And for two reasons, 1) She is flipping good! Good to the point where it actually made Dana White, back peddle on what he said about woman, and allow them in the UFC.
And sadly, number 2) Sex sells. It is as simple as that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 03:37:22
Subject: Re:Article on why women don't play 40k
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Krazed Killa Kan
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Warrior woman.
Mah boi, the fightin' girls should look something like this.
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Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 03:49:11
Subject: Article on why women don't play 40k
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.
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Furyou Miko wrote:When I went to the other club, it was pretty much a 50/50 split. As for video gaming, since guys often refuse to believe a girl is a girl or make fun of them if they do reveal themselves as such, it's generally easier to pretend to be a guy. I did it for years.
My wife does the same.
I mean, she doesn't pretend to be a guy but she doesn't talk on the mic in order to not have to deal with the hordes of troglodytes.
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Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 03:54:34
Subject: Re:Article on why women don't play 40k
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Nasty Nob
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You'll have to shout louder AbusePuppy, I cannot hear you from the top of your ivory tower.
Except for the models remarks, most of these are stereotypes. They don't play because of me? Like me in specifics? Candice collects necrons and I've played D&D with her and the rest of the group, so what's her problem with me? When I met Meredes in the Square One GW we chatted about the lore of Wood Elves. So what's her problem with me?
"When you smell like a fething pile of gak for Christ’s sake take a bath once a week goddamn- that’s why women don’t play this game."
Huh? I want a peer-reviewed study in a recognized scholarly journal that points to a significant personal hygiene deficiency in wargamers. Give me charts. Give me numbers. Give me figures. Not the hearsay of some guy on the internet, nor a hundred examples of people who say they go to a club where they know someone "like that."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 03:56:59
Subject: Re:Article on why women don't play 40k
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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I don't agree that gender norms are relevant. They're remnants of a disgustingly misogynistic culture that we're still in the process of struggling to throw off.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/17 03:57:53
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 04:02:00
Subject: Article on why women don't play 40k
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.
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Simply thinking (and for the sake of argument, if they are in fact) bad, surely they're still relevant.
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Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 04:27:26
Subject: Article on why women don't play 40k
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Confessor Of Sins
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MarsNZ wrote:If you look around the net for gamer demographics you'll find women consistently rate 45% and above in terms of total gamer population, just because they aren't all grrrl gamers who take every opportunity to advertise themselves doesn't mean they aren't around. I myself lead a clan of around 120 members in APB:Reloaded, we have a pair of grrrlgamer types, and a large silent majority who prefer to keep their gender secret from the rest of the community. Not surprising as I've been forced to remove members who believed sexually graphic comments were appropriate as soon as they found out this particular members sex.
Unfortunately in spite of these demographics gamers still have the stereotype of being acne-riddled socially slowed teenage boys and sweaty neckbeard types neither of which are particularly endearing to the would-be femme-wargamer.
Biology has its role too, if I turn up for a game and find out my opponent is a cute girl (never happened) I'm much more likely to go easy on stuff like 'oh you forgot to declare that charge? no problem you can do it now instead', I'd rather she finishes the game wanting to play me again than say 'oh wow I totally destroyed that chick, they're so bad at games lol'. does that make me a sexist? a white knight? No, it makes me a single straight male.
To be fair, my only opponent is female, and we both allow that kind of stuff for each other (taking actions when we forgot to earlier) as long as it wouldn't really affect anything that's gone on since then. However, she's my mom, so I don't think that the normal biology reason has anything to do with it.
Mostly it's because we don't play often and we're still learning the rules as we go - though I did give the rulebooks a solid read-through before we played, and I have the mini-rulebook in the bathroom for more reading - I really can't stand just sitting still to read a book anymore, and haven't been able to since I read Faith and Fire, which was a bit of a struggle to get through - - and she's got a pretty terrible memory to begin with. Fortunately, not Alzheimer's (she's been tested, and the test was negative, so just a crappy memory).
I will admit, my personal hygiene used to be pretty terrible, but there was a medical reason for it - namely, that I believed that the water would turn to pink goop which would then proceed to murder me because it was alive. As it turned out, I was quite ill with schizophrenia at the time. Meds and therapy have helped a lot, and my hygiene is much better now - admittedly, still not perfect, but much better than once every 3-4 months.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/17 04:29:08
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 04:32:51
Subject: Article on why women don't play 40k
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Did you spend one too many nights watching Ghostbusters?
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 04:34:50
Subject: Re:Article on why women don't play 40k
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Fixture of Dakka
West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA
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It's entirely possible that most women who decide not to play 40K, do so because of the men who do, lol.
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"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 04:35:40
Subject: Article on why women don't play 40k
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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It's also possible that most women-- or men for that matter-- simply never HEAR about 40k. I mean, despite the size of this forum we have to remember it's a pretty niche hobby.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/17 04:35:57
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 04:42:46
Subject: Re:Article on why women don't play 40k
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Fixture of Dakka
West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA
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I meant (in a bit of a snarky way) that it's entirely possible that some women who are interested in 40K (or wargaming in general) might actually be turned off by what they see upon going into the average gaming store. I think that my wife's virtual immunity to teenage or teenage-acting men (she is a high school teacher, and a geek besides) is the only reason she stands going into game stores with me.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/17 04:45:03
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 04:44:12
Subject: Re:Article on why women don't play 40k
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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AegisGrimm wrote:It's entirely possible that most women who decide not to play 40K, do so because of the men who do, lol.
Explain women participating in other 'nerdy' activities enjoyed by socially awkward, unattractive, and often misogynist men.
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Read my story at:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/515293.page#5420356
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 04:47:59
Subject: Re:Article on why women don't play 40k
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Fixture of Dakka
West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA
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Explain women participating in other 'nerdy' activities enjoyed by socially awkward, unattractive, and often misogynist men.
I have absolutely no clue, there. More power to 'em, they apparently can focus on their like of a hobby enough to ignore the bad aspects. If I shared a hobby that was largely made of socially lacking women, I seriously dunno if I could keep on it.
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"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 04:49:27
Subject: Article on why women don't play 40k
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Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun
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Melissia wrote:It's also possible that most women-- or men for that matter-- simply never HEAR about 40k. I mean, despite the size of this forum we have to remember it's a pretty niche hobby.
Right on the money.
Till i actually decided to finally delve into 40k (i knew about it for 2-3 years never got into it till Aug2012 when i got to korea and instantly found like 10+ people that play a LOT lol) most of my friends never heard of it. I started showing off my paintjobs and theyre all like "So what is this for?" even the gamer ones.
I mean, is 40k advertised at ALL these days except to those who already purchased something and get those emails from gw?
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An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 04:49:40
Subject: Article on why women don't play 40k
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Confessor Of Sins
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Ghostbusters 2, actually, but yeah, that's the movie my brain was translating into real life in that instance.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 04:51:37
Subject: Re:Article on why women don't play 40k
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Amaya wrote: AegisGrimm wrote:It's entirely possible that most women who decide not to play 40K, do so because of the men who do, lol.
Explain women participating in other 'nerdy' activities enjoyed by socially awkward, unattractive, and often misogynist men.
I have never come across a gamer like this.
In my local GW it is mostly kids, typical GW. In my gaming club, most guys there are married with kids.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 04:54:31
Subject: Re:Article on why women don't play 40k
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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I've seen a couple of 40k players like that, but I see it a lot more in video gaming. Oddly enough there are a lot more women in the video gaming crowd than the wargaming one, despite the fact that video gamers, in my experience at least, are typically much more immature and often very hateful individuals.
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Read my story at:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/515293.page#5420356
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 05:02:37
Subject: Article on why women don't play 40k
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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I can vouch for that. As bad as the reputation is, I still get the feeling, however anecdotal, that wargamers are better behaved than video gamers, especially on XBL.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 05:06:48
Subject: Article on why women don't play 40k
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Confessor Of Sins
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Melissia wrote:I can vouch for that. As bad as the reputation is, I still get the feeling, however anecdotal, that wargamers are better behaved than video gamers, especially on XBL.
For some reason, that reminds me that a number of years ago, Blizzard was looking at adding a feature into World of Warcraft which would allow players to customize their characters' dance moves.
Unfortunately, that will never be, because the first thing that the people who tested that feature did with it, was make the characters look like they're having sex.
So Blizzard scrapped the idea and it's not coming back, probably even IF the playerbase proves it can act like a mature adult.
Which isn't too likely, given how the forums are looking...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 05:09:47
Subject: Re:Article on why women don't play 40k
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Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar
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I can tell you I met more women on Wizard 101 than anywhere else. World of Warcraft has to be a close 2nd.
I would guess 40k has fewer female gamers than average but MMOs it has to be really close. My best friend in Everquest was a girl pretending to be a guy so she didn't get hassled.
(To whoever mentioned TF2. I so miss TF2) Why does the the Heavy get all the best lines? Don't run it's only ham. I renamed my sandwich soylent green.
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01001000 01101001 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 01110010 01100101 00101110 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 05:11:39
Subject: Article on why women don't play 40k
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Melissia wrote:I can vouch for that. As bad as the reputation is, I still get the feeling, however anecdotal, that wargamers are better behaved than video gamers, especially on XBL.
Because, despite what the internet will tell you, people are generally decent. And it takes a special kind of person to be pointless rude or obnoxious face to face with someone. But over a game of COD through a MIC? Anyone can do it. Hell I'll admit, I've played drunken games of COD with friends on XBL and gave some people some serious abuse when I was a bit younger. It was hilarious then, a little embarrassing looking back on it now, would I ever be like to someones face? No, because I wasn't dragged up.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 05:13:20
Subject: Re:Article on why women don't play 40k
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Confessor Of Sins
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Mythra wrote:I can tell you I met more women on Wizard 101 than anywhere else. World of Warcraft has to be a close 2nd.
I would guess 40k has fewer female gamers than average but MMOs it has to be really close. My best friend in Everquest was a girl pretending to be a guy so she didn't get hassled.
(To whoever mentioned TF2. I so miss TF2) Why does the the Heavy get all the best lines? Don't run it's only ham. I renamed my sandwich soylent green.
My guild in WoW has a very simple solution to creeps hassling people. They get booted. Instantly.
I <3 my guild.
Also, they put up with my silliness and insanity, and the guild leader and his wife both adore me and my cuddly demeanor.
Also, I loved playing Heavy. The only thing I didn't like about it is the Medics that assume I have some sort of clue what I'm doing and instantly get up next to me to heal me and assume I'll protect them. I'm just terrible at that, so they die, then I die, then I go and swap to Demoman or Soldier or something.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/17 05:15:54
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/17 05:14:08
Subject: Re:Article on why women don't play 40k
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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A big part of it anonymity. It's a lot easier for some punk to be a troll when they can avoid face to face confrontation. I know any disrespect towards women would not fly at any of the FLGS in San Antonio. Come to think of it, there are several women working at each one (or at least three of them, I rarely use the fourth store I know of).
Honestly, the idea that the store is off putting to women interested in "nerdy activities" at all is really laughable down here. There are women working there and several women that do tabletop RPing and various CCGs. I just don't think wargaming is particularly appealing to most women. Its not like the general populace even knows much about it at all. If it ever gets brought up in a discussion people always ask, "Oh, is it like D&D?" You'd literally have to be living under a rock at the bottom of a swamp to not be aware of the various conventions, video gaming, RPing, cosplay, etc, but wargaming hasn't reached that level of popularity.
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Read my story at:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/515293.page#5420356
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