Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

At the same time, I wish to repeat this link, for those that don't really understand how unpleasant it can be for women to get in to nerdy things. There's also the whole "fake geek girl" crap as well...

All things told, I still think the wargaming community is more pleasant than many other, less niche communities like comic books, anime, gaming, etc. The main thing about wargaming is, well, it is extremely niche.

Key points

Findings indicate that, on average, the female voice received three times as many negative comments as the male voice or no voice. In addition, the female voice received more queries and more messages from other gamers than the male voice or no voice.

On several occasions the female condition was exposed to derogatory gendered language. For example, in one particular game nearly every utterance made by the female condition was met with a negative response by a particular gamer. When the female condition said ‘hi everybody’, the other gamer responded with ‘shut up you <censored>’ followed a few seconds later with ‘she is a <racial epithet> lover’. When the female condition said, ‘alright team let’s do this’, the other gamer replied, ‘feth you, you stupid <censored>.’

imo, this belongs in the Damsels in Distress thread as well, as this reinforces the fact there is a massive amount of misogynist behavior going on in the online and gaming community.

Already posted it there. It was ignored.

 Melissia wrote:
Already posted it there. It was ignored.

So you posted it there and a certain philosoraptor conveniently ignored while going on a tirade about how women are not subject to significantly more abuse in the gaming community?

This calls for a double facepalm.

I've known personally two girls that gave 40k a try. the first liked daemons but she had the personality of "I'm attractive, I have nerdy stuff, Pay attention to me."the handful of games she actually played she ran slanneshi all the way. daemonettes lead by the masque and a herald of slaanesh and a prince of slaanesh in the back. When she lost she pulled a fit and when the group(We're all adults and she was a friend) tried to give tips it was immediately useless according to her. Thus we all walked away from her and focused on other games. She really wanted attention and we can't all put forth helpful tips if all we're getting is crying. We did the same with some of the guys who wouldn't listen too.

The second is listening much better and not complaining as much. But her first army is DE. A very hard army. but she takes it in stride. It's a rough bump road but the group supports.

Didn't a women win the 40k side of the bay area open? I think that shows that women can be just as good or better in this case than 100 other guys.

I wish I had met a girl wargamer, but since I haven't I can't really contribute fully in the topic except to voice opinion. I'm just glad that there are women here to voice their opinions.

 dreamakuma wrote:
I've known personally two girls that gave 40k a try. the first liked daemons but she had the personality of "I'm attractive, I have nerdy stuff, Pay attention to me."the handful of games she actually played she ran slanneshi all the way. daemonettes lead by the masque and a herald of slaanesh and a prince of slaanesh in the back. When she lost she pulled a fit and when the group(We're all adults and she was a friend) tried to give tips it was immediately useless according to her. Thus we all walked away from her and focused on other games. She really wanted attention and we can't all put forth helpful tips if all we're getting is crying. We did the same with some of the guys who wouldn't listen too.

In the end, though, that's really no different than the donkey-cave jocks who can't stand to be associated with "nerd" or "geek" stuff. Hell, I got viciously mocked by them, BOTH genders, in high school myself.

As technology and geek culture becomes more mainstream, these people will slowly fade away.

I'll throw in my 2 cents here;

I've cajoled my girlfriend into playing 40k a few times, and she's enjoyed it (and beaten me every time somehow, and I swear I'm not throwing the game or anything), but the reason she doesn't want to make a hobby of it; time investment. Simply put, she doesn't really want to build and paint an army, it holds no real appeal to her; the final product is fun, and she's always willing to give my Marines a whirl (she's quite fond of the dreadnought, makes sound effects for it), but doesn't want to go through the hundreds of hours involved in getting to that step.

In the end, the whole 40k hobby attracts a certain group of people, requiring a confluence of a number of different character traits which are not especially commonplace. I know a few women who dig the whole hobby, some who just want to do the painting/modelling side, and some who just want to play the game, and I know men in all those categories as well. As to why women don't play 40k en masse, I think a lot of that has to do with the attitudes of the general community.

Simply put, 40k communities tend to not be very female friendly in my experience. My own group isn't hostile in any direct way, but a lot of those involved have absolutely zero capacity to engage with the opposite sex in any functional manner, and that forms a barrier. I enjoy playing a few games with my girlfriend at home with my marines and guard, but the "group," well half of them will just stare at her cleavage, the other half will be patronizing buffoons, and a handful will behave like normal human beings. You can likely imagine which ones are single, and have been for a long time. Ultimately, if an individual or group wants to get women more involved, or anyone really outside their "sphere," the key is being inviting, normalizing the experience, and learning how to interact with other people.

Anyways, that's just my opinion and experience, take from that what you will.

Hey, at least you tried not to be condescending and mean, so I appreciate the input at least.

I've played at several FLGS and GW stores over the years I've been gaming. I seen and played with numerous female gamers. I've been to stores where they were worshiped and the females took advantage of that. I've seen stores where the men behave inappropriately and then get subsequently kicked out for it (which speaks to the whole "no one does anything about it"), I've never seen it tolerated. I've seen females go in intentionally seeking attention.

Yes I've witnessed most of the "stereotypical" interactions described above. But I've also seen them in many other places as well. The work place, most other hobbies/games/clubs, online gaming, you name it. Do they exist? Yes. Is it fair? No. But does it generally keep women from participating in what they want? Rarely, at least in my experiences.

Now in fairness, it was only 2 or 3 stores I noticed females being treated differently in any way, and all the rude offenses were dealt with by staff. The two places I frequent now (a GW and a FLGS), you would never notice these things (aside from when an attractive girl enters and turns a few heads, but nothing different than anywhere else, and the guys aren't rude or gawking at her). And we do have a decent number, at least 30-40%, at my local GW, and around 25% at my FLGS, of female gamers. Our local GW manager is a woman, and a bunch of her female friends play there.

My wife, unfortunately, has no interest in warhammer, but does play lots of other games, she just isn't interested. Is it because she's a woman? No. Is it because male gamers offend her in some way? No. It's because she, as a human, decided she wasn't interested.

I'd say in some places, these "stereotypical" interactions may deter women from getting into wargamming, but I don't think it's fair to put all the blame of the gender balance on male gamers as a whole. I'd be quicker to blame society as a whole and their misconception of gender roles, but please lets not open that can of worms.

Also I have never seen someone at any of the stores I've been to fit into the role of "sweaty neck beard" or have noticeably poor hygiene.

My two cents, YMMV

 Melissia wrote:
Already posted it there. It was ignored.

Where is this thread?

I am finding this thread very interesting...and extremely redundant...

Why? This is all the same kind of comments, points, arguments, articles and the back and for this pretty much the same as it was on RPG boards years ago.

The first thing is that gender should be a complete non-issue when it comes to social interaction with a gamer of any sort. The limit that everyone has to get past is that the game was originally created by men for a male dominated market. While females have been into the hobby for who knows how long, if not from the start, the iconography and stories are severely male dominated and male focus.

I personally have never treated female gamers or nerds any different. I have seen both sides of it also. I have seen people treat females as nothing more than kids that needed their hands held and I have seen them treated like 'equals'. When it comes down to it, their treatment by men is no different then any other subgroup in the hobby, just that their 'difference' is more visible (same with the 'child' category)

The article originally presented though seemed to just blame the guys that play. The problem with that, it is not the people who play the necessarily get them interested. If a female finds it interesting, they will pick it up and play. If they enjoy it, they will continue playing. If they don't - they won't. This is the same way that males are. Attempting to draw that gender line and segregating females into their own subgroup of gamers is part of the problem.

Basically - male, female, young, old, disabled, whatever - if we stop focusing on these aspects and just look at them being 'gamers', stuff like this article in the OP and such would never come up.

 Amaraxis wrote:
I am finding this thread very interesting...and extremely redundant...

Why? This is all the same kind of comments, points, arguments, articles and the back and for this pretty much the same as it was on RPG boards years ago.

The first thing is that gender should be a complete non-issue when it comes to social interaction with a gamer of any sort. The limit that everyone has to get past is that the game was originally created by men for a male dominated market. While females have been into the hobby for who knows how long, if not from the start, the iconography and stories are severely male dominated and male focus.

I personally have never treated female gamers or nerds any different. I have seen both sides of it also. I have seen people treat females as nothing more than kids that needed their hands held and I have seen them treated like 'equals'. When it comes down to it, their treatment by men is no different then any other subgroup in the hobby, just that their 'difference' is more visible (same with the 'child' category)

The article originally presented though seemed to just blame the guys that play. The problem with that, it is not the people who play the necessarily get them interested. If a female finds it interesting, they will pick it up and play. If they enjoy it, they will continue playing. If they don't - they won't. This is the same way that males are. Attempting to draw that gender line and segregating females into their own subgroup of gamers is part of the problem.

Basically - male, female, young, old, disabled, whatever - if we stop focusing on these aspects and just look at them being 'gamers', stuff like this article in the OP and such would never come up.

+1

Wargaming is a strange little niche that is a pain in the ass to get into. Not just monetarily but getting into the community is not easy either. I am grown ass man ( and a handsome one at that) and even I had trouble getting into the community. It is hard to make the leap from the internet to the real life scene because you people are just an awful bunch of whiny asshats.
I was terrified that my FLGS would be full of jerks who with just words can suck all the fun out of a game i was just getting into. Luckily i found out one of my coworkers was also into it and i was able to find a good group of guys to enjoy the game with. You really can't be surprised that there arent many people of either gender in this very small niche market of expensive plastic toy soldiers. No disrepect. <that makes everything i said not offensive >

Edited by Mannahnin

1. It's hard to take that sort of article seriously when the same contributor has an article on the same blog who's thumbnail is a female depiction of a Khorne Berzerker with the Boobplate that he bemoans in his other write up.

2. Making sweeping, sexist generalizations about Male Hobbyists won't help your point about fixing sweeping, sexist generalizations associated with Female Hobbyists/Hobbyist Hopefuls. It makes people resentful and hostile and will generally stir up more aggravation and exacerbate the problem.

3. The bottom line is you need to treat everyone as a person first and then whatever their race/gender identifier is last. It should be a tertiary concern. That's really all it is. I simply see a person who wants to play 40k, or talk about 40k, or paint 40k and I see a common interest. Doesn't seem difficult, does it?

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
http://www.3plusplus.net/2012/12/why-are-there-no-girl-wargamers/

I find a lot of agreement here, though I think it's generally more likely that girls are more interested in painting over pushing toys around a table.

I have a problem that some of the points as to why girls don't play 40k come across as though they were written by a desperate white knight who doesn't actually understand women.

The "boobplate" claim is one of them. Having feminine armor that covers the entire body is going to be more attractive to women than gender ambiguous armor. It's fully functional armor, and already a departure from highly revealing armor. Women would rather look attractive than look like a Space Marine.

The author should have complemented Dan Abnett for having at least two books where specifically mentions how the military clothing makes female characters more attractive.

One thing I would like to mention to all the desperates is that boobs do not show through armor. Stop crapping on the Scharzenkommando stormtrooper models (basic stormtrooper models with masks) because they don't have boobs. At the level of armor and clothing they wear, there's nothing that is going to visually tell you the sex of the model. Deal with it. Sorry I couldn't give you pleasure by putting down "female models" on the table.

1.I'm a girl, and I like painting, and playing. You know, the whole hobby?

2. I don't want my female character's to be attractive, any more than you want your marneus calgar's and such to be attractive. I, like you, want my character's to be badasses. More Ripley, less Stripley.

3. We don't want to be attractive. We want to be hardcore badasses, along the same lines as, say, every male character in the game above a grot.

4. Yes, I'll admit, it's hard to tell through the armour, and that's a good thing, it leaves it up to the imagination. But they could very easilly, release a tiny bit's sprue with headswap options for a female sergeant for guard, and such.


Now, this article is pretty much right. First thing I was told, when I expressed an interest in 40k, was that I should play sisters of battle, or eldar, or dark eldar. I looked at the models, cringed at the spandex-power armour of the sisters, winced at the battle thong's of the dark eldar, and in honesty, was quite happy with the normal eldar. Suitably badass, without being in a thong. But they diddn't seem to understand I diddn't -have- to play a female army, just because I was a female gamer.

I Chose Nurgle daemons. And to this day, I get the oddest look when I bring out my army and it isn't sisters of battle, but quite possibly the grossest army in the game.

In short, this isn't the 1950's, I don't pop on a pinny, and paint up some models, only to never use them. I play for the exact same reasons you play, because it's a badass setting.

And generally, if I ever get hit on when i'm just out to play games with people, I have a great way of changing the subject to put them off. "Hey, check this out, I painted the ass-maggot's on my great unclean one yesterday "

Now, this article is pretty much right. First thing I was told, when I expressed an interest in 40k, was that I should play sisters of battle, or eldar, or dark eldar. I looked at the models, cringed at the spandex-power armour of the sisters, winced at the battle thong's of the dark eldar, and in honesty, was quite happy with the normal eldar. Suitably badass, without being in a thong. But they diddn't seem to understand I diddn't -have- to play a female army, just because I was a female gamer.

That's one thing that's a very true mindset of a large portion of wargamers, in that I have seen multitudes of posts over the years suggesting that a guy get his significant other into the game by handing her "the girl army" to play.

Although maybe I should try that with my wife, because the current "Girl Armies" are somewhat lower tier choices- meaning I would possibly stand a better chance of not getting my butt kicked in games with her.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Now, this article is pretty much right. First thing I was told, when I expressed an interest in 40k, was that I should play sisters of battle, or eldar, or dark eldar. I looked at the models, cringed at the spandex-power armour of the sisters, winced at the battle thong's of the dark eldar, and in honesty, was quite happy with the normal eldar. Suitably badass, without being in a thong. But they diddn't seem to understand I diddn't -have- to play a female army, just because I was a female gamer.

That's one thing that's a very true mindset of a large portion of wargamers, in that I have seen multitudes of posts over the years suggesting that a guy get his significant other into the game by handing her "the girl army" to play.

Although maybe I should try that with my wife, because the current "Girl Armies" are somewhat lower tier choices- meaning I would possibly stand a better chance of not getting my butt kicked in games with her.

The irony is, the male bias isn't quite as pronounced as it first seems.

Space marine chapters (INC CSM) - Entirely male
Tau - Gender neutral, female named character, and there is very little to distinguish between the gender's, so a fire warrior could easily be male or female, to the tau, it doesn't matter, for the greater good and all that.
Eldar + dark eldar, gender balanced
Sisters - Predominantly female
Orks - Gender neutral (Asexual Fungaloid's)
Tyranid's - gender neutral (There is only really one type of tyranid that has a defined gender, and that is the queen's in their hivefleet's, who I believe do not reproduce, but rather gather the information from the hivemind, rather than through breeding)
Daemons - Gender neutral (Don't say daemonettes, they assume a form their enemy finds attractive. Against sisters, they would appear male, and hunky )


The balance only seems off, because half the army's, are space marines, and all space marines, are male. A throwback bit of lore from the 80's.

So yeah, ask her if she cares about the gender of the army. If she doesnt, let her see all the armies. If she does, show her all the non-space marine armies, as each of those is either gender balanced, or gender neutral.

I always found the assumption of "play the "girl" army rather idiotic.

Out of the female gamers I know personally, they're into Tyranids, Space Wolves, Daemons and Tau.

There is something to be said for finding something you can identify with, but that's not the only consideration people make, and I feel that is more of a "thing" in video games, RPGs and the like. In 40k, you want something "cool," something which can wreck face, and to be honest, aside from the Guard, there isn't much to identify with personally in the setting.

For instance, I play Guard not because I can empathize with them, more because normal people with basic gear fighting monstrosities from the void is pretty damn cool. My girlfriend, well she thinks a guy raised by wolves, riding a giant wolf with lightning claws is, in fact, the coolest thing ever. At no point to gender roles come into the equation with 40k army selection.

Everything being equal, I AM thinking of painting up some sort of cool female Inquisitor character for my wife, for use in games of "In the Emperor's Name", now that I came across that little gem of a game. I think there is actually something to be said for having an army led by a character you can relate to, and gender is an easy way to go. Just not the ONLY way.

I'm a male, yet I chose the girliest army going. Blood Angels

I think women don't play 40k for the same reason men don't watch Cougar Town: because they have a preconceived notion on what it contains, based on the name, and already have decided it's not for them.

I thought Cougar Town was going to be like Sex and the City or Desperate Housewives, because of the name. BUT IT'S NOT. IT'S PRETTY GOOD.

So I think they should rebrand 'Warhammer 40,000' as '40,000 AD' or something less silly. There aren't any important Warhammers in 40k, that's WFB. The Emperor didn't use a hammer, neither did Horus, and you could still call it 40k.

Evileyes wrote:


1.I'm a girl, and I like painting, and playing. You know, the whole hobby?

Marry me.

Evileyes wrote:2. I don't want my female character's to be attractive, any more than you want your marneus calgar's and such to be attractive. I, like you, want my character's to be badasses. More Ripley, less Stripley.

3. We don't want to be attractive. We want to be hardcore badasses, along the same lines as, say, every male character in the game above a grot.

Is it too much to ask for both? ^^;

4. Yes, I'll admit, it's hard to tell through the armour, and that's a good thing, it leaves it up to the imagination. But they could very easilly, release a tiny bit's sprue with headswap options for a female sergeant for guard, and such.

Now, this article is pretty much right. First thing I was told, when I expressed an interest in 40k, was that I should play sisters of battle, or eldar, or dark eldar. I looked at the models, cringed at the spandex-power armour of the sisters, winced at the battle thong's of the dark eldar, and in honesty, was quite happy with the normal eldar. Suitably badass, without being in a thong. But they diddn't seem to understand I diddn't -have- to play a female army, just because I was a female gamer.

I Chose Nurgle daemons. And to this day, I get the oddest look when I bring out my army and it isn't sisters of battle, but quite possibly the grossest army in the game.

In short, this isn't the 1950's, I don't pop on a pinny, and paint up some models, only to never use them. I play for the exact same reasons you play, because it's a badass setting.

And generally, if I ever get hit on when i'm just out to play games with people, I have a great way of changing the subject to put them off. "Hey, check this out, I painted the ass-maggot's on my great unclean one yesterday "

ew, Nurgle. I take the marriage proposal back. :p Not because they're gross, but it's a matter of Principle. I follow Tzeentch... when I'm not playing Undead Terminators or Fetish Nuns (Yes! I AM that rare creature known as a female wargamer who actually plays Sisters of Battle!)

AegisGrimm wrote:That's one thing that's a very true mindset of a large portion of wargamers, in that I have seen multitudes of posts over the years suggesting that a guy get his significant other into the game by handing her "the girl army" to play.

Although maybe I should try that with my wife, because the current "Girl Armies" are somewhat lower tier choices- meaning I would possibly stand a better chance of not getting my butt kicked in games with her.

Ah yes. "Girl armies". I have a female friend who plays Eldar because they have lots of wings. I have a female friend who plays Tyranids because gribbly scythey things are way cooler than sad armies made of lots of little men, and I have a third female friend who 'plays' Slaaneshi Daemons because they looked fun to paint.

Eldercaveman wrote:I'm a male, yet I chose the girliest army going. Blood Angels

Nothing to say, just Quote For Laughs

VorpalBunny74 wrote:I think women don't play 40k for the same reason men don't watch Cougar Town: because they have a preconceived notion on what it contains, based on the name, and already have decided it's not for them.

I thought Cougar Town was going to be like Sex and the City or Desperate Housewives, because of the name. BUT IT'S NOT. IT'S PRETTY GOOD.

So I think they should rebrand 'Warhammer 40,000' as '40,000 AD' or something less silly. There aren't any important Warhammers in 40k, that's WFB. The Emperor didn't use a hammer, neither did Horus, and you could still call it 40k.

WTF is Cougar Town? As for 40,000 AD, we're not Judge Dredd.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
WTF is Cougar Town? As for 40,000 AD, we're not Judge Dredd.

Cougar Town is a TV show. It doesn't have Cougars in it, either the animals or women who date younger men. I avoided it because of the name, judging the book by its cover, and if I hadn't been referred to it by my wife would never have watched and liked it.

'40,000 AD' was just a suggestion that would allow the 40k jargon word to stay. How about '40,000 Anno Domini'?

In my experience, women don't play 40k or WFB simply because they aren't interested in it. My wife, and my friends' wives are familiar with the game because of our occasional gaming, but just have no interest in playing. This same group of women doesn't hesitate to join in when my friends and I are having a night of M:TG or Munchkin. Hell, my wife even used to play MUDs. We were both in a US leading WoW end game guild until we decided to have children. But when I bring up 40k, she just has a complete lack of interest. My friends have similar experiences with their wives.

Although this isn't really restricted to women. Most of my male friends are completely baffled about table-top gaming as well. As one of the posters above said, it's a pretty niche hobby.

EDIT: spelling

I just don't think the setting appeals to women in general. That being said my Gf and a few other females play 40k at our local FLGS, but we see them more often in the fantasy side than the 40k side.

I think the overall design of the armies is somewhat to blame for this. My Gf plays Tau, one of the others nids, and the other crons. if you notice pretty much these are the only armies that are ambiguous to a point. While tau may be men in those suits they all look like robots, bugs are bugs, and crons are just robo zombies. I have yet to see a girl at our FLGS look at a SOB box without disdain for the models.

The other factor? Its wargaming. Tanks and stuff. While I can't say that girls hate tabletop gaming (on the contrary they love tabletop games in general) wargaming is not a particularly appealing thing to women on the general front. Women are generally outnumbered 10-1 in a FLGS unless they are playing card games or in someones DnD group.

Wargaming is competitive, DnD or other RPG tabletop games favor more creative thinking. see where this is going?

Well, cougar town technically DOES have a cougar in it.

Courtney Cox-Arquette is old enough to be one - it's a long time since she was the teenager pulled out of the audience in a Bruce Springsteen video ("Dancing in the dark", btw).

It's also set in a particular Florida town where cougars are infamous.
In the "predatory" female sense.

I have a theory after watching a study on pheremones. You see there is only a brief period of time in a woman's cycle when they find male BO smell tolerable.

The other 27 days of the month it's downright revolting to the mass majority of them.

Now stop in your local bunker/game store on a busy saturday. What does it smell like? Funky BO. lol

Ok maybe not a sound theory but I'm sticking too it.

Seriously in the front of the rulebook on "Playing the game..." it should start with...
Step 1 - Take a shower, brush your teeth, swish some mouthwash, put on clean clothes (IE they just came out of the washer not "They smell clean to me!" because you can't smell your own funky self)
Step - 2 Then head to the game store....

Lots of interesting onions on this thread. Here is mine.

I don't know why females don't gravitate to 40k like we men do. It could be a lot of things, societal influences, lack of interest in these type of games or it could be male behavior. Often, the truth is not one extreme thing but in the middle of a lot of things. I am not a woman and I cannot speak for them. But, I do doubt it's male behavior because, as some people pointed out, there are a lot of females in online vidya games. Hell, most of my WoW friends are female. (I have no idea how that happened. I don't specifically pursue them). We all know how guys can be in Children's Online Daycare and other such games.

However, I am man so I can say this: I don't care whether or not my local 40k scene has women in it. If there is any, great, but if not I won't lose sleep over it. Sorry to say it, but in my experience women are not much more interesting than men are. So, having women in the store would just be like having more guys there unless you wanted something out of them.

Actually, from these posts, it seems like females gravitate to non Imperial armies (Tyranids seem to be common, but I could be wrong) so it would somewhat different from having more guys there.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Lots of interesting onions on this thread. Here is mine.

I don't know why females don't gravitate to 40k like we men do. It could be a lot of things, societal influences, lack of interest in these type of games or it could be male behavior. Often, the truth is not one extreme thing but in the middle of a lot of things. I am not a woman and I cannot speak for them. But, I do doubt it's male behavior because, as some people pointed out, there are a lot of females in online vidya games.

That last bit is fairly simple. We can mute you in an online game, but if someone creeps on us IRL, not much to be done about it.

And you probably have a surprising amount of wow friends who are girls, because wow generally is more gender balanced than most games, only it's not as often women will go into proper chat's and tell people they are, unless they trust the people in their guild, for example.