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What primarch has what flaws?
Some are easy like angron(fething insane) and fulgrim(obsessed with perfection).
But what about the Khan, Vulkan, and others who aren't written about as much?
Would too secretive be a flaw for Alpharius?
Too Caring isn't really a flaw for Vulkan
What about Sanguinus in general?
And the Khan I have no clue about what he's like, the lexicanicum said he was never fully accepted by his brothers which could be one, but it's not a flaw he deals with internally.

EDIT: Wrong sub, can a mod move to 40k Background?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/17 14:37:25


 
   
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I love that you had to specify "not plot holes" kinda sums it all up.


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I think the Lion didnt really understand or connect with other people. the HH books make it pretty clear that Luther was his PR guy while still on Caliban.

Magnus was so conceited, couldnt possibly even fathom that he didnt know all there was to know about the warp.

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Between

Magnus was praised to death.

Ever since he discovered his power, he was told that he was the best, that he did know everything. It's hard to blame him for starting to believe it when literally everyone from the Emperor to the chamber maid told him it was true.



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 Furyou Miko wrote:
Magnus was praised to death.

Ever since he discovered his power, he was told that he was the best, that he did know everything. It's hard to blame him for starting to believe it when literally everyone from the Emperor to the chamber maid told him it was true.
I don't remember the Emp praising Magnus. I do remember the Emp telling Magnus to stop playing around with the Warp which he ignored and continued playing around believing arrogantly that he was greater than the Warp beings.

Stated by Grey Templar:The Ward of the Codices
"It began, with the writing of the Great Codices,
2 were given to the Eldar. Immortal, Capricious, and most farsighted of all,
2 also to Chaos. Traitorous, Deceitful, Servants of the Dark Gods,
3 to the Xenos races. T'au, Orks, and Necrons. the Young, the Beast, and the Spiteful,
7 to the race of men. Servents of the God Emperor, the Inheritors of the Galaxy.

But they were all of them, decieved. for another Codex was written…
In the Land of Ward'or, in the Fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Matthew wrote in secret, a Master Codex, to rule all the others. One by one, all the armies of the other Codices fell to the power of the Codex, and from this Darkness, none could see hope.

But there were some, who resisted. a Last Alliance of Men and Xenos took up arms against the forces of Ward'or and on the Slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of 40k."  
   
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The ruins of the Palace of Thorns

Horus - guillible
Leman Russ - Too simplistic - sees things in black and white
DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS
Ferrus Manus
Fulgrim - obsessed with "perfection"
Vulkan - too compassionate
Rogal Dorn - inferiority complex
Roboute Guilliman - too conservative
Magnus the Red - arrogant, know-it-all
Sanguinius - Too quick to beileve the best of people
Lion El'Jonson - superiority complex, sense of entitlement
Perturabo - jealousy
Mortarion - independent streak, outsider, doesn't make friends easily
Lorgar - too needy, seeks approval from others
Jaghatai Khan - outsider, doesn't mix well with others
Konrad Curze - cursed by visions
Angron - insane
Corax - feeling guilty
DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS
Alpharius Omegon - too secretive

For discussion, not necessarily correct!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/17 15:41:17


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Pride/ego/hubris is the biggest one for most, if not all of the primarchs. Very few could be described as modest or humble. Maybe Vulkan.

Vulkan's compassion is definitely a flaw, when you take the setting into account. It takes a certain amount of ruthlessness to survive in 30k/40k.

Dorn has been noted as being unable or unwilling to tell a lie. What this translates to is a complete lack of tact and diplomacy, explaining why he only got on with a handful of the other primarchs.

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 ashrog wrote:
Pride/ego/hubris is the biggest one for most, if not all of the primarchs. Very few could be described as modest or humble. Maybe Vulkan.

Vulkan's compassion is definitely a flaw, when you take the setting into account. It takes a certain amount of ruthlessness to survive in 30k/40k.

Dorn has been noted as being unable or unwilling to tell a lie. What this translates to is a complete lack of tact and diplomacy, explaining why he only got on with a handful of the other primarchs.
Some people would say that Dorn's inability to lie would be a virtue.

Stated by Grey Templar:The Ward of the Codices
"It began, with the writing of the Great Codices,
2 were given to the Eldar. Immortal, Capricious, and most farsighted of all,
2 also to Chaos. Traitorous, Deceitful, Servants of the Dark Gods,
3 to the Xenos races. T'au, Orks, and Necrons. the Young, the Beast, and the Spiteful,
7 to the race of men. Servents of the God Emperor, the Inheritors of the Galaxy.

But they were all of them, decieved. for another Codex was written…
In the Land of Ward'or, in the Fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Matthew wrote in secret, a Master Codex, to rule all the others. One by one, all the armies of the other Codices fell to the power of the Codex, and from this Darkness, none could see hope.

But there were some, who resisted. a Last Alliance of Men and Xenos took up arms against the forces of Ward'or and on the Slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of 40k."  
   
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Corporal_Reznov wrote:
 ashrog wrote:
Pride/ego/hubris is the biggest one for most, if not all of the primarchs. Very few could be described as modest or humble. Maybe Vulkan.

Vulkan's compassion is definitely a flaw, when you take the setting into account. It takes a certain amount of ruthlessness to survive in 30k/40k.

Dorn has been noted as being unable or unwilling to tell a lie. What this translates to is a complete lack of tact and diplomacy, explaining why he only got on with a handful of the other primarchs.
Some people would say that Dorn's inability to lie would be a virtue.


It is a character trait which can be a virtue or flaw depending on the situation

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Maybe. But we as humans lie all the time to spare others' feelings and promote the well-being of our social groups. That is why it is sometimes a big deal to tell someone "what you really think of them". Because you tend not to say every negative thing that pops into your mind. Being unable to filter those thoughts and speak diplomatically seems like a sign of sociopathy to me.

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North of your position

Alpharius Omegon's biggest flaw is not that they're too secret. It is their obsession of being in control. They want to be in control of everyy situation, hence all the operatives and gigazillion backup plans.

   
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Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
Corporal_Reznov wrote:
 ashrog wrote:
Pride/ego/hubris is the biggest one for most, if not all of the primarchs. Very few could be described as modest or humble. Maybe Vulkan.

Vulkan's compassion is definitely a flaw, when you take the setting into account. It takes a certain amount of ruthlessness to survive in 30k/40k.

Dorn has been noted as being unable or unwilling to tell a lie. What this translates to is a complete lack of tact and diplomacy, explaining why he only got on with a handful of the other primarchs.
Some people would say that Dorn's inability to lie would be a virtue.


It is a character trait which can be a virtue or flaw depending on the situation


ashrog wrote:Maybe. But we as humans lie all the time to spare others' feelings and promote the well-being of our social groups. That is why it is sometimes a big deal to tell someone "what you really think of them". Because you tend not to say every negative thing that pops into your mind. Being unable to filter those thoughts and speak diplomatically seems like a sign of sociopathy to me.

Agree with you guys. just pointing out about Dorn's issue.

Stated by Grey Templar:The Ward of the Codices
"It began, with the writing of the Great Codices,
2 were given to the Eldar. Immortal, Capricious, and most farsighted of all,
2 also to Chaos. Traitorous, Deceitful, Servants of the Dark Gods,
3 to the Xenos races. T'au, Orks, and Necrons. the Young, the Beast, and the Spiteful,
7 to the race of men. Servents of the God Emperor, the Inheritors of the Galaxy.

But they were all of them, decieved. for another Codex was written…
In the Land of Ward'or, in the Fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Matthew wrote in secret, a Master Codex, to rule all the others. One by one, all the armies of the other Codices fell to the power of the Codex, and from this Darkness, none could see hope.

But there were some, who resisted. a Last Alliance of Men and Xenos took up arms against the forces of Ward'or and on the Slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of 40k."  
   
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 ashrog wrote:
Pride/ego/hubris is the biggest one for most, if not all of the primarchs. Very few could be described as modest or humble. Maybe Vulkan.

Vulkan's compassion is definitely a flaw, when you take the setting into account. It takes a certain amount of ruthlessness to survive in 30k/40k.

Dorn has been noted as being unable or unwilling to tell a lie. What this translates to is a complete lack of tact and diplomacy, explaining why he only got on with a handful of the other primarchs.


Dorn being unable to lie cost his relationship with Peturbo. I think it was a Chaos-influenced person who asked him, and he honestly answered he thought the Iron Warriors would be defeated if they tried to conquer the Imperial Palace.

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 dreamakuma wrote:
Curze was vain. He'd rather die than be wrong.
Curze is crazy.

Stated by Grey Templar:The Ward of the Codices
"It began, with the writing of the Great Codices,
2 were given to the Eldar. Immortal, Capricious, and most farsighted of all,
2 also to Chaos. Traitorous, Deceitful, Servants of the Dark Gods,
3 to the Xenos races. T'au, Orks, and Necrons. the Young, the Beast, and the Spiteful,
7 to the race of men. Servents of the God Emperor, the Inheritors of the Galaxy.

But they were all of them, decieved. for another Codex was written…
In the Land of Ward'or, in the Fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Matthew wrote in secret, a Master Codex, to rule all the others. One by one, all the armies of the other Codices fell to the power of the Codex, and from this Darkness, none could see hope.

But there were some, who resisted. a Last Alliance of Men and Xenos took up arms against the forces of Ward'or and on the Slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of 40k."  
   
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Would the "replace more flesh with iron" count as a flaw for Ferrus?
   
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I'd say Ferrus' main one is his contempt for the weak. He's very competitive, wrathful, merciless and hateful; contemptuous towards the weak and promoting strength through competition. As a result he also seems to be somewhat self-doubting and therefore strives to prove himself, kinda like Fulgrim.
IMHO the above reasons could have led to a fairly convincing fall to Khorne.

Enlist as a virtual Ultramarine! Click here for my Chaos Gate (PC) thread.

"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of."
- Roboute Guilliman

"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now."
- Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
 
   
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Those are definitely flaws.

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Holy Terra

Biggest flaws of all Primarchs: they all had ego size of universe.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/29 21:17:24


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 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Biggest flaws of all Primarchs: they all had ego size of universe.
Especially Magnus.

Stated by Grey Templar:The Ward of the Codices
"It began, with the writing of the Great Codices,
2 were given to the Eldar. Immortal, Capricious, and most farsighted of all,
2 also to Chaos. Traitorous, Deceitful, Servants of the Dark Gods,
3 to the Xenos races. T'au, Orks, and Necrons. the Young, the Beast, and the Spiteful,
7 to the race of men. Servents of the God Emperor, the Inheritors of the Galaxy.

But they were all of them, decieved. for another Codex was written…
In the Land of Ward'or, in the Fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Matthew wrote in secret, a Master Codex, to rule all the others. One by one, all the armies of the other Codices fell to the power of the Codex, and from this Darkness, none could see hope.

But there were some, who resisted. a Last Alliance of Men and Xenos took up arms against the forces of Ward'or and on the Slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of 40k."  
   
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RVA

I did a thread on this, well, kind of on this -- for the Traitor Primarchs -- some time ago:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/486284.page
 Manchu wrote:
I have a theory that the Traitor Legions are defined by an archetypal contradiction and that they fell because they were unable to deal with the attendant psychological and moral conflict. Here are my specific postulates:

III. Emperor's Children: Perfection v. Flaw
The exacting standards to which Fulgrim held himself and his legion proved a path into obsession. The Emperor's Children eagerly turned from rigorous self-cultivation to the excesses of self-debasement and the Phoenician himself vanished into possession.

IV. Iron Warriors: Security v. Paranoia
Perturabo distrusted the affections of his adoptive father, ultimately overthrowing him and seizing the rule of Olympia only to later devastate it while stamping out rebellion. The Iron Warriors neurotic fascination with constructing and breaching fortification mirrors their Primarch's lack of trust.

VIII. Night Lords: Determinism v. Free Will
Konrad Curze was so certain in his foreknowledge that the Emperor would murder him that he worked to incur the Emperor's wrath and allowed himself to be assassinated. In the wake of Night Haunter's death, the Night Lords slid into aimless ruin.

XII. World Eaters: Slavery v. Freedom
The Emperor denied Angron the gladiator-slave his freely-chosen death such that the word Primarch seemed but another shackle. The Red Angel re-made the XII Legion to throw off restraint in the fires of rage, thus dooming them to serve the Blood God.

XIV. Death Guard: Life v. Death
Ill-named Mortarion fought against death incarnate on Barbarus -- and lost only to be saved by the Emperor. In the face of similar defeat, the Reaper turned to the Plague God and as the price for endless life he and his legion are endlessly dying.

XV. Thousand Sons: Knowledge v. Ignorance
The mind of Magnus sought the farthest corners of both Materium and Immaterium yet what the Cyclops failed to learn overshadowed everything he managed to glean. The fruit as well as the dearth of his efforts cost the Thousand Sons dearly.

XVI. Sons of Horus: Loyalty v. Treachery
Of all his brothers, none so comprehended the grand sweep of their father's ambition as Horus Lupercal did. Believing that the Emperor intended to betray these goals, the Warmaster of needs rebelled and his devoted Sons pledged themselves to eternal revolt.

XVII. Word Bearers: Faith v. Doubt
In rejecting the adoration of Lorgar, the Emperor proved how fragile the Primarch's beliefs really were. At the center of the Word Bearers fanatical devotion to Chaos remains an infinitely bitter misgiving that Aurellian was originally correct.

XX. Alpha Legion: Truth v. Deception
Even the identity of the Primarch of the Alpha Legion is a source of ambiguity: it is no surprise these warriors delight in reverse double dealing. But can they themselves tell the difference between fact and fiction anymore?


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/29 22:04:57


   
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 thenoobbomb wrote:
Alpharius Omegon's biggest flaw is not that they're too secret. It is their obsession of being in control. They want to be in control of everyy situation, hence all the operatives and gigazillion backup plans.

That is the main reason why they are alive, and maybe not "on chaos dust"....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Just Dave wrote:
I'd say Ferrus' main one is his contempt for the weak. He's very competitive, wrathful, merciless and hateful; contemptuous towards the weak and promoting strength through competition. As a result he also seems to be somewhat self-doubting and therefore strives to prove himself, kinda like Fulgrim.
IMHO the above reasons could have led to a fairly convincing fall to Khorne.

Dude, I was stunned how Ferrus was "rather dumb" then cautious...
I mean, I was sorry for him in the begining, but when was reading Fulgrim I couldn't belive this guy was a primarch...Hmmm, perhaps he is just poorly writen......

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/29 22:18:43


ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."

Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan


 
   
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I feel that way about all of them, except Abnett's take on Leman Russ.

   
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I'd be intrigued if you could do a similar list for the loyalists, Manchu?

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"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of."
- Roboute Guilliman

"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now."
- Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
 
   
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Corporal_Reznov wrote:
 Furyou Miko wrote:
Magnus was praised to death.

Ever since he discovered his power, he was told that he was the best, that he did know everything. It's hard to blame him for starting to believe it when literally everyone from the Emperor to the chamber maid told him it was true.
I don't remember the Emp praising Magnus. I do remember the Emp telling Magnus to stop playing around with the Warp which he ignored and continued playing around believing arrogantly that he was greater than the Warp beings.

Magnus was perhaps the smartest but he wasn't praised by anyone, actually the opposite
Spoiler:
Magnus of Prospero had inherited their father’s gift of foresight and psychic potential, though it was a gift that had distanced him from his brothers, for none truly trusted that such a power was without price or consequence.

ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."

Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan


 
   
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 Just Dave wrote:
I'd be intrigued if you could do a similar list for the loyalists, Manchu?
I've thought about it and I'm not sure it is possible. My theory is that primarchs with contradictions at the core of the personalities fell because they could not resolve the contradictions. I suppose the corresponding theory is that the loyalists either were not defined by contradictions or successfully resolved them off-stage.

   
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 Manchu wrote:
 Just Dave wrote:
I'd be intrigued if you could do a similar list for the loyalists, Manchu?
I've thought about it and I'm not sure it is possible. My theory is that primarchs with contradictions at the core of the personalities fell because they could not resolve the contradictions. I suppose the corresponding theory is that the loyalists either were not defined by contradictions or successfully resolved them off-stage.


Yeah, I suspected that would be the case to be honest. The Traitor Primarchs were designed - written - to be flawed, and to fall, whereas the loyalists weren't.

What about their archetypes instead, maybe?

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"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of."
- Roboute Guilliman

"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now."
- Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
 
   
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ITT, we've already seen the ambiguity of the loyalists' "flaws."

For example, someone mentioned that Sanguinius was too eager to see the good in everyone. That's not a real flaw. I mean that's only a flaw in a world of douche bags. A real flaw is something that would still be bad if everyone did it. So Magnus's arrogance doesn't get any better if all his brothers were also so arrogant. But if all of the Primarch's gave each other the benefit of the doubt, like Sanguinius did, then the galaxy would be a better place.

What do you mean by archetypes?

   
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Well, I guess I meant their defining characteristic; the trait at the heart of their personality.


Personally, I feel Sanguinius' may be his heart and his humanity. Although, yes, this isn't really a flaw for a normal human being, for a living demigod of war that's got to go around smiting everyone in sight and watching his warriors die, it could hinder him. It's for this reason I couldn't see Sanguinius as the Emperor's successor: I don't think he could cope with the stuff the Emperor has to.

Enlist as a virtual Ultramarine! Click here for my Chaos Gate (PC) thread.

"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of."
- Roboute Guilliman

"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now."
- Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
 
   
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I think Sanguinius's core quality was his loyalty. He was the anti-Horus. Dorn was loyal also -- obviously -- but in a weird co-dependent way. Sanguinius is IMO the best Primarch. OTOH, I don't really care for the BA.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/29 22:47:51


   
 
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