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lets all give a big thank you to our favorite Inquisitor and his gambit, for making this all possible.

 -Loki- wrote:

willhman wrote:
Guns that spread out substances that eat away flesh? Great except that they are a green tide, you can throw in rocks, but it will continue to come at you.

You keep underestimating Tyranid numbers. The rough explanation in the 6th edition codex puts them at practically numberless. Hive fleets made up of hundreds of thousands of hive ships, each home to countless Tyranids. Or the other way around, but still, the mental image they're trying to get across is 'if you think you have the numbers, the Tyranids have more'. Not to mention, while Orks are described as a 'green tide', Tyranids actually embody it. Fluff descriptions of Tyranids attacking a planet are like 'ink spilling on a map'.

Numbers are not something Orks can count on against Tyranids, because Tyranids keep getting attributed the same population quantities, if not more.

No I understand that in the end that orks are probably almost always outnumbered. What I'm trying to say is that you can't really affect the orks with adaptations. Also, nids want simpler creatures to breed. The more complex, the more energy spent on one creature. That's why they don't have the "perfect" killing machine, cause it takes up wayyy to much Bio-mass.

Octarious in not the biggest ork empire out there. It is one of the biggest yes but the biggest is the Charadon empire. Sorry if I mispelled it. Also they are fighting the biggest Nid hive fleet to date. It might not be all of it but it is a major tentacle. So don't be saying that nids are walking all over them. cause they ain't.

Fungi organism are rather weak to poison and disease, or so I read, so there's that.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Fungi organism are rather weak to poison and disease, or so I read, so there's that.

Might be true, except we don't know what type of fungi this is, I mean we are talking about extraterrestrials here. For all we know they might have a added bonus against poisons and disease because of the fungus, or they might not, we just don't know enough about them to be sure.

Hunchkrot wrote:
Yeah, I don't think there's much of a contest here. While Orks all united would be a pretty big problem for all the races, it's just not going to happen. Like, ever.

Also, let's not forget that the Octarius war began with one hive ship landing. One single hive ship is defeating what is currently the largest Ork empire.

Its a tendril and its a stalemate.

Orkz having a stalemate with a tendril is a pretty big thing.

Its just a waiting game until every ork becomes a meganob or 95% cybork.

Snoipah wrote:

Hunchkrot wrote:
Yeah, I don't think there's much of a contest here. While Orks all united would be a pretty big problem for all the races, it's just not going to happen. Like, ever.

Also, let's not forget that the Octarius war began with one hive ship landing. One single hive ship is defeating what is currently the largest Ork empire.

Its a tendril and its a stalemate.

Orkz having a stalemate with a tendril is a pretty big thing.

Its just a waiting game until every ork becomes a meganob or 95% cybork.

I didn't realize a stalemate was where one side was losing?

The Tyranids are slowly 'winning', in that they're taking ground away from the Orks. As per recent fluff (in the Tyranid issue of White Dwarf a while ago), the Tyranids have started to adapt to the Orks socialogical structure by assassinating Warlords with the Swarmlord. A handful have already been killed, which has destabilised the region and allowed the Tyranids to take multiple continents on Octarius. In other words, the Tyranids are adapting strategically and are making headway to taking the planet.

It was a stalemate as of the Tyranid codex. Now, it's not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

willhman wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

willhman wrote:
Guns that spread out substances that eat away flesh? Great except that they are a green tide, you can throw in rocks, but it will continue to come at you.

You keep underestimating Tyranid numbers. The rough explanation in the 6th edition codex puts them at practically numberless. Hive fleets made up of hundreds of thousands of hive ships, each home to countless Tyranids. Or the other way around, but still, the mental image they're trying to get across is 'if you think you have the numbers, the Tyranids have more'. Not to mention, while Orks are described as a 'green tide', Tyranids actually embody it. Fluff descriptions of Tyranids attacking a planet are like 'ink spilling on a map'.

Numbers are not something Orks can count on against Tyranids, because Tyranids keep getting attributed the same population quantities, if not more.

No I understand that in the end that orks are probably almost always outnumbered. What I'm trying to say is that you can't really affect the orks with adaptations. Also, nids want simpler creatures to breed. The more complex, the more energy spent on one creature. That's why they don't have the "perfect" killing machine, cause it takes up wayyy to much Bio-mass.

Not biological adaptions, but adaptions come in many forms. Tyranids, as per recent fluff, are adapting strategically to the Orks sociological structure being based around singular leaders (Warlords) and are taking advantage of it.

willhman wrote:
Octarious in not the biggest ork empire out there. It is one of the biggest yes but the biggest is the Charadon empire. Sorry if I mispelled it. Also they are fighting the biggest Nid hive fleet to date. It might not be all of it but it is a major tentacle. So don't be saying that nids are walking all over them. cause they ain't.

I wouldn't even call it a big tendril of Leviathan. When you look at the utter carnage the rest of the hive fleet is causing, the resources they've devoted to Octarius just isn't very much compared to what would be needed to destroy things like major Forgeworlds.

 -Loki- wrote:

Hunchkrot wrote:
Also, let's not forget that the Octarius war began with one hive ship landing. One single hive ship is defeating what is currently the largest Ork empire.

Actually, the Octarius war started when Kryptmann lured a tendril of Leviathan to the system. Not one hive ship, but not all of Leviathan either. Given the size of Leviathan, the tentrils are still pretty big, but it's not all of the hive fleet, since the rest of it is still out wrecking up the galaxy.

I was discounting the space battle before the initial landing, so as to give my argument a little more weight. But fine, I suppose we can be totally honest But also, in the Tyranid codex it wasn't even really a stalemate.They have taken three planets so far,"no signs of stopping","not only surviving, but thriving", things like that. I think it was a stalemate in planetstrike, but that's old news by now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Snoipah wrote:

Hunchkrot wrote:
Yeah, I don't think there's much of a contest here. While Orks all united would be a pretty big problem for all the races, it's just not going to happen. Like, ever.

Also, let's not forget that the Octarius war began with one hive ship landing. One single hive ship is defeating what is currently the largest Ork empire.

Its a tendril and its a stalemate.

Orkz having a stalemate with a tendril is a pretty big thing.

Its just a waiting game until every ork becomes a meganob or 95% cybork.

I haven't read anything that would imply the Orks are doing anything but prolonging their deaths. And it was a tendril, that was destroyed almost in its entirety in a space battle. Which is very impressive, especially for orks.. But, one ship managed to make landfall, and that one ship has rebuilt itself and is ravaging the sector.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Last edit, I promise! I never realized there was a White Dwarf article about this. If there's anything in there, I don't know it. What issue was it?

 -Loki- wrote:

willhman wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

willhman wrote:
Guns that spread out substances that eat away flesh? Great except that they are a green tide, you can throw in rocks, but it will continue to come at you.

You keep underestimating Tyranid numbers. The rough explanation in the 6th edition codex puts them at practically numberless. Hive fleets made up of hundreds of thousands of hive ships, each home to countless Tyranids. Or the other way around, but still, the mental image they're trying to get across is 'if you think you have the numbers, the Tyranids have more'. Not to mention, while Orks are described as a 'green tide', Tyranids actually embody it. Fluff descriptions of Tyranids attacking a planet are like 'ink spilling on a map'.

Numbers are not something Orks can count on against Tyranids, because Tyranids keep getting attributed the same population quantities, if not more.

No I understand that in the end that orks are probably almost always outnumbered. What I'm trying to say is that you can't really affect the orks with adaptations. Also, nids want simpler creatures to breed. The more complex, the more energy spent on one creature. That's why they don't have the "perfect" killing machine, cause it takes up wayyy to much Bio-mass.

Not biological adaptions, but adaptions come in many forms. Tyranids, as per recent fluff, are adapting strategically to the Orks sociological structure being based around singular leaders (Warlords) and are taking advantage of it.

willhman wrote:
Octarious in not the biggest ork empire out there. It is one of the biggest yes but the biggest is the Charadon empire. Sorry if I mispelled it. Also they are fighting the biggest Nid hive fleet to date. It might not be all of it but it is a major tentacle. So don't be saying that nids are walking all over them. cause they ain't.

I wouldn't even call it a big tendril of Leviathan. When you look at the utter carnage the rest of the hive fleet is causing, the resources they've devoted to Octarius just isn't very much compared to what would be needed to destroy things like major Forgeworlds.

I was talking about Biological adaptations though... I know that the nids can outsmart the orks, but they can't adapt their bodies to actually make that much of a diffrence without spending huge amounts of biomass on one creature, that might die from a lucky missle to the head.

MGS solved it as a logistical question: regardless of the specifics, it seems that tyranids require more in the way of fuel than orks. If the tyranid can't wipe out the orks quickly enough, then they are surely doomed. The question is, are tyranids sosuperior to orks such that they could quickly overwhelm them? The answer seems to be no.

 -Loki- wrote:

I didn't realize a stalemate was where one side was losing?

The Tyranids are slowly 'winning', in that they're taking ground away from the Orks. As per recent fluff (in the Tyranid issue of White Dwarf a while ago), the Tyranids have started to adapt to the Orks socialogical structure by assassinating Warlords with the Swarmlord. A handful have already been killed, which has destabilised the region and allowed the Tyranids to take multiple continents on Octarius. In other words, the Tyranids are adapting strategically and are making headway to taking the planet.

It was a stalemate as of the Tyranid codex. Now, it's not.

Right until the ork codex...

The individual conflicts like that aren't really comparable, they shift with the story in each new codex. The important bit, and perhaps further reason for tyranid players to seek out Cruddance and rant at him, is that his background severely restricted the Hive Fleets from relentless and remorseless walls of biomechanical horror that cannot be stopped to something akin to a bear waking from hibernation, desperate to feed and consume, frantically evolving new morphs to get this done as fast as possible or they burn themselves out and die off.

He fundamentally changed the way the tyranids operate, this is intentionally introduced weakness to the nids, it was introduced both to them and to necrons to lessen them both in order to give back the crown of Ultimate Bad to Chaos as the design team felt it had been eclipsed a mite by both these xenos.

Nids took a 'fluffnerf'. Given that it was always a 50/50 with them v orks prior to that, yeah, against the Old One's green tac-nuke supersoldiers, as proposed as working in an ordered unison, mate, the bugs would be endangered species in short order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
MGS solved it as a logistical question: regardless of the specifics, it seems that tyranids require more in the way of fuel than orks. If the tyranid can't wipe out the orks quickly enough, then they are surely doomed. The question is, are tyranids sosuperior to orks such that they could quickly overwhelm them? The answer seems to be no.

Indeed, orks flourish in protracted conflict, tyranids exactly the opposite. If the bugs don't break them fast and all orks vs all tyranids, that just isn't going to happen, then it's a good day to be green...

I take the OP means, ALL orks united versus the entire Hive Fleet?

Yeah, Orks would win. Why? Everything outside of this Galaxy is also populated by Orks.

 Soladrin wrote:
I take the OP means, ALL orks united versus the entire Hive Fleet?

Yeah, Orks would win. Why? Everything outside of this Galaxy is also populated by Orks.

There is no evidence to support that, beyond an old and heavily mis-quoted piece about an Imperial probe travelling beyond the galactic halo and still picking up Ork communications. In no way does that translate into there being Orks in any other galaxy, let alone every other galaxy.

Xyptc wrote:

 Soladrin wrote:
I take the OP means, ALL orks united versus the entire Hive Fleet?

Yeah, Orks would win. Why? Everything outside of this Galaxy is also populated by Orks.

There is no evidence to support that, beyond an old and heavily mis-quoted piece about an Imperial probe travelling beyond the galactic halo and still picking up Ork communications. In no way does that translate into there being Orks in any other galaxy, let alone every other galaxy.

Same way as there is no evidence of more hive fleets outside the galaxy, it is heavily suggested, but never proven for fact....

"unbeknownst to the Imperium, the threat is of an even greater magnitude, for the bulk of the Tyranids have not yet reached the Imperium's galaxy, their masses still strewn across the void. So immeasurably large is the invasion fleet that its furthest stretched tentacles alone have entered the Imperium's space." 6th ed. Rulebook, pg. 215.

Hunchkrot wrote:
6th ed. Rulebook, pg. 215.

The rulebook I have on hand does't go that high .

Sorry...

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Indeed, orks flourish in protracted conflict, tyranids exactly the opposite.

It's funny, because the Tyranid codex is saying the opposite. I know logic playing a part would deem them to be bad at protracted engagements, but 'The Tyranids are thriving' on the Octarius war puts on official stance on this statement - it's wrong. Tyranids are not just doing fine in their biggest protracted conflict yet, they're thriving.

Logic doesn't apply to 40k, and Tyranids are not different.

The strange part of all the Tyranid hate generally comes from people either not reading their fluff, or just not wanting them to be as powerful as GW is making them. Whatever way you cut it, going by official fluff, Tyranids are bascially the 'galaxy ender'. Logic need not apply to them, as per normal 40k. They're numberless, and with the small amount that's hit the galaxy, tremendous damage has been done. More are coming - a lot more.

 Manchu wrote:
MGS solved it as a logistical question: regardless of the specifics, it seems that tyranids require more in the way of fuel than orks. If the tyranid can't wipe out the orks quickly enough, then they are surely doomed. The question is, are tyranids sosuperior to orks such that they could quickly overwhelm them? The answer seems to be no.

No he didn't. He said something silly like "Orks can live off of starlight." Even plants that photosynthesize need water and nutrients, not to mention carbon and oxygen in the air. Tyranids have spaceborne organisms and completely use up all the useful organic molecules in their area of control, meaning they can fight on when orks cannot, and ork spores cannot grow in any ground held by the tyranids long enough for tyrannoforming to start taking effect.

Besides, it has been mentioned repeatedly in the codexes that Tyranids can somehow move the mass they digest from the hive fleet digesting a planet to other parts of the hive fleet via the warp. They can ship in their own food through magic. The orks have not demonstrated this ability.

BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Besides, it has been mentioned repeatedly in the codexes that Tyranids can somehow move the mass they digest from the hive fleet digesting a planet to other parts of the hive fleet via the warp. They can ship in their own food through magic. The orks have not demonstrated this ability.

Switching sides here for a moment, do you happen to have the source for that particular bit of fluff? Tyranids have always been my favourite element of 40k, and I've followed their evolving fluff almost from the start and I've never come across any confirmation of how they move the excess mass. I've seen lots of theories put forwards, including (as you say) moving it through the Warp, but also giant Hive ships that have never been seen before that come in and carry it all off to parts unknown and also what basically amounts to magic-science with the Tyranids burning all the excess matter up to replenish lost energy after an invasion. To the best of my knowledge, it's never been outright stated one way or another, because there are few, if any, witnesses to the final stages of the consumption of the world.

Yeah, I don't recall that anywhere. I remember an article talking about the sheer volume of material removed from a planet is inconceivable considering it's not seen anywhere after consumption (not even an appreciable increase in ships), but not that the warp is used. There was no theory in the article on how it was done.

A better theory would be a 'tendril' is like a line of ants - they move forward to planets to remove food, then have large ships ferry it back to a primary collecting point. Maybe this 'main' fleet that's sitting outside the galaxy.

 -Loki- wrote:
Yeah, I don't recall that anywhere. I remember an article talking about the sheer volume of material removed from a planet is inconceivable considering it's not seen anywhere after consumption (not even an appreciable increase in ships), but not that the warp is used. There was no theory in the article on how it was done.

A better theory would be a 'tendril' is like a line of ants - they move forward to planets to remove food, then have large ships ferry it back to a primary collecting point. Maybe this 'main' fleet that's sitting outside the galaxy.

Which if anything is only even more terrifying. If the main "body" of the Tyranid race is currently outside the galaxy (well, it's confirmed that it is) but more importantly intends to stay outside the galaxy and simply grapple with our worlds with extended tendrils and then pull its winnings back out of reach then we've all got big problems because the bulk of our enemy will be completely out of our reach, and able to use the mass it has claimed to throw an endless swarm at us until all resistance is crushed.

The only space-faring race that could conceivably challenge such a distant and powerful threat would presumably be the Necrons...

Xyptc wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
Yeah, I don't recall that anywhere. I remember an article talking about the sheer volume of material removed from a planet is inconceivable considering it's not seen anywhere after consumption (not even an appreciable increase in ships), but not that the warp is used. There was no theory in the article on how it was done.

A better theory would be a 'tendril' is like a line of ants - they move forward to planets to remove food, then have large ships ferry it back to a primary collecting point. Maybe this 'main' fleet that's sitting outside the galaxy.

Which if anything is only even more terrifying. If the main "body" of the Tyranid race is currently outside the galaxy (well, it's confirmed that it is) but more importantly intends to stay outside the galaxy and simply grapple with our worlds with extended tendrils and then pull its winnings back out of reach then we've all got big problems because the bulk of our enemy will be completely out of our reach, and able to use the mass it has claimed to throw an endless swarm at us until all resistance is crushed.

The only space-faring race that could conceivably challenge such a distant and powerful threat would presumably be the Necrons...

You forgot about the dark elder and their black holes in a box.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
MGS solved it as a logistical question: regardless of the specifics, it seems that tyranids require more in the way of fuel than orks. If the tyranid can't wipe out the orks quickly enough, then they are surely doomed. The question is, are tyranids sosuperior to orks such that they could quickly overwhelm them? The answer seems to be no.

No he didn't. He said something silly like "Orks can live off of starlight." Even plants that photosynthesize need water and nutrients, not to mention carbon and oxygen in the air. Tyranids have spaceborne organisms and completely use up all the useful organic molecules in their area of control, meaning they can fight on when orks cannot, and ork spores cannot grow in any ground held by the tyranids long enough for tyrannoforming to start taking effect.

Besides, it has been mentioned repeatedly in the codexes that Tyranids can somehow move the mass they digest from the hive fleet digesting a planet to other parts of the hive fleet via the warp. They can ship in their own food through magic. The orks have not demonstrated this ability.

I was talking about food sources, orks need only sunlight (suns are stars...), I was not suggesting they exist in vacuums.

If it's been mentioned that nids move organic mass to other parts of the fleets via the warp previously, that is no longer the case as the new codex made it VERY clear the revised tyranids do not use the warp at.all. So no 'magic food' for you!

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
I was not suggesting they exist in vacuums

Orks might be able to survive a vacuum environment though... I mean there are tales of ork ships getting blown up in asteroid belts, then are plagued with ork roks years afterwords. I do not know if that means that orks can live in vacuum(not enough fluff on the subject) but it does point out that orks can indeed survive a certain amount of time in the vacuum of space.

They could likely survive it for a duration, but not indefinitely.

They are also capable of surviving full decapitation, so again, they trump the tyranids.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
They could likely survive it for a duration, but not indefinitely.

They are also capable of surviving full decapitation, so again, they trump the tyranids.

What ork had his head cut off and continue to fight?

 kinratha wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
They could likely survive it for a duration, but not indefinitely.

They are also capable of surviving full decapitation, so again, they trump the tyranids.

What ork had his head cut off and continue to fight?

Let's further enhance this question; what Ork had its head cut off and continued to fight effectively?

Xyptc wrote:

 kinratha wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
They could likely survive it for a duration, but not indefinitely.

They are also capable of surviving full decapitation, so again, they trump the tyranids.

What ork had his head cut off and continue to fight?

Let's further enhance this question; what Ork had its head cut off and continued to fight effectively?

Ere We Go, Page 19: 'Doc's Suprise': Head Grafting/Limb Grafting.

"Ork physiology is so remarkable that the brain in a detached head can survive for quite some time."

"Attached two heads to each of the few bodies... Minor modifications to the nervous system enabled each head to control half of the body."

"Further 'eksperimentin' on blast-damaged orks led to techniques of grafting extra arms onto the body at the same time as the head graft. This meant that a multiple armed Ork could handle and fire a pair of shoulder weapons with full accuracy."

Why can't orks survive in a vacuum, besides the radiation and the explosive effect? They can balance their algae production and animal cell usage proabably. Also, who says orks cant evolve? It says they produce by spores. Couldn't that mean external sexual production?

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Xyptc wrote:

 kinratha wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
They could likely survive it for a duration, but not indefinitely.

They are also capable of surviving full decapitation, so again, they trump the tyranids.

What ork had his head cut off and continue to fight?

Let's further enhance this question; what Ork had its head cut off and continued to fight effectively?

Ere We Go, Page 19: 'Doc's Suprise': Head Grafting/Limb Grafting.

"Ork physiology is so remarkable that the brain in a detached head can survive for quite some time."

"Attached two heads to each of the few bodies... Minor modifications to the nervous system enabled each head to control half of the body."

"Further 'eksperimentin' on blast-damaged orks led to techniques of grafting extra arms onto the body at the same time as the head graft. This meant that a multiple armed Ork could handle and fire a pair of shoulder weapons with full accuracy."

Can you actually answer the question?

That is about the brain surviving decapitation to be put on another body - which require a headless body to graft onto anyway. In the heat of battle, how is this meant to help? This isn't an Ork surviving decapitation while his body continues to fight. This isn't trumping anything - it's Orks having a funny science experiment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FoWPlayerDeathOfUS.TDs wrote:
Why can't orks survive in a vacuum, besides the radiation and the explosive effect?

Because nothing says they can? The aforementioned example of a ship exploding in an asteroid field which is then turned into a bunch of Roks, it's more likely sufficient Orks got clear in protective gear.

If we're just going to assume zenos can do anything until something says they can't, well, this sub forum is going to die a horrible death.