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So GW nerfed the Tyranids and the Necrons to make Chaos look more like a threat? How long until they do they same to the Orks?

The sad part is that Chaos is still just a joke who can never win by their own design. Sure, they have a lot of compelling background, but they just don't make a convincing Big Bad at all.

I got my money on nids. Irks know no strategy other than rush headlong into battle.

The hive mind is a greater entity with the ability to adapt in real time using synapse nodes to interpret success or failure on a skirmish by skirmish basis. Most importantly the hive mind entity can easily use its ever present will and its omniscience-like knowledge to overcome its foes.

roxor08 wrote:
I got my money on nids. Irks know no strategy other than rush headlong into battle.

There are many examples of this being wrong, Ghaz has defeated the most erudite minds in Imperium military for many battles, the entire Blood Axe clan is dedicated to being sneaky, evasive and tactical, the orks are best described as possessing little higher intelligence and much low cunning.

roxor08 wrote:

The hive mind is a greater entity with the ability to adapt in real time using synapse nodes to interpret success or failure on a skirmish by skirmish basis. Most importantly the hive mind entity can easily use its ever present will and its omniscience-like knowledge to overcome its foes.

The hive mind is not an entity. There is no superbrain lurking somewhere. The hive mind exists throughout the fleets and is extremely variable, being an amalgam of the creatures that make it up. It's certainly not omniscient. In the case of a fleet encountering resistance, where it's falling into hunger and desperation, it's likely the amalgam will make more and more mistakes due to the rising conflicting wants and needs making it up and the lessening of it's numbers to attrition.

roxor08 wrote:

The hive mind is a greater entity with the ability to adapt in real time using synapse nodes to interpret success or failure on a skirmish by skirmish basis. Most importantly the hive mind entity can easily use its ever present will and its omniscience-like knowledge to overcome its foes.

Why does everyone think the hive mind is a entity? The hive mind is the gestalt collective thought of everything from a zoanthrope to a gaunt.

Well I apologize for using the word "entity". I was attempting to imply what phonics mentioned as being a gestalt collective but didn't use the proper wording.

Either way, my option still stands that nids will win.

Cheers!

roxor08 wrote:
Well I apologize for using the word "entity". I was attempting to imply what phonics mentioned as being a gestalt collective but didn't use the proper wording.

Either way, my option still stands that nids will win.

Cheers!

Because 'orks charge headlong into things unlike nids'. Tyranids are the very epitome of throwing living troops at a target till it runs out of ammo. The Swarmlord is famous as a creature because it uses tactics and strategy otherwise nids just try to saturate and overwhelm.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

roxor08 wrote:
Well I apologize for using the word "entity". I was attempting to imply what phonics mentioned as being a gestalt collective but didn't use the proper wording.

Either way, my option still stands that nids will win.

Cheers!

Because 'orks charge headlong into things unlike nids'. Tyranids are the very epitome of throwing living troops at a target till it runs out of ammo. The Swarmlord is famous as a creature because it uses tactics and strategy otherwise nids just try to saturate and overwhelm.

Not true at all. At ghorala (not 100% on spelling) nids used tactics to consume the planet. They charged skar fangs fortress then retreated drawing the orks out. Then used venomthropes to kill his squad and lictors to rip him to shreds

Deathleaper is another example of nids tactical genious by destroying the morale of the soldiers by scaring their leader shitless

Jayo'r wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

roxor08 wrote:
Well I apologize for using the word "entity". I was attempting to imply what phonics mentioned as being a gestalt collective but didn't use the proper wording.

Either way, my option still stands that nids will win.

Cheers!

Because 'orks charge headlong into things unlike nids'. Tyranids are the very epitome of throwing living troops at a target till it runs out of ammo. The Swarmlord is famous as a creature because it uses tactics and strategy otherwise nids just try to saturate and overwhelm.

Not true at all. At ghorala (not 100% on spelling) nids used tactics to consume the planet. They charged skar fangs fortress then retreated drawing the orks out. Then used venomthropes to kill his squad and lictors to rip him to shreds

Deathleaper is another example of nids tactical genious by destroying the morale of the soldiers by scaring their leader shitless

Ok, Ghorla(No one knows how to spell it) was a something that will not happen in most cases. The reason being, is that the nids landed, and THEY were the ones that was outnumbered. This is never the case. It is either, they are out numbered by alot, or it is around even. Because they were out numbered, they had to literally use Guerrilla tactics, something that we never hear about, because nids never use those tactics, unless the Swarm lord is there.

Another reason, the nids won, was because they were not a threat to the orks planet side. They were at MOST a couple thousand. Orks, when not faced with a THREAT usually do not worry about it, so they turn to each other. Using this to its advantage, the nids, started to use hit and runs. Orks could have stopped this at anytime, but because they didn't belive that the nids were a threat, then they didn't act. I mean what ork, would kill something that could give it a proper fight?

This debate again? Though it's fun to speculate, it's a lot like scientists estimating the number of lifeforms in the universe: unknown x unknown x unknown x unknown = yes, wait for it...UNKNOWN!

By the way, how is it that orks don't need to eat much anyway? I would think their activity would require a great deal of nutrition, at least as much as a tyranid. Are they plants or animals? or neither? Regardless, tyranids seem to have at least one advantage - wiping out pockets of them still garners the hive mind information, whereas wiping out orks is information lost to the orks. The orks may need to start over a few times in learning something, the tyranids do not.

Orks seem able to "farm" food from their own waste.

I made this distinction earlier but it's worth repeating: Nids fight to live while Orks live to fight. If Orks did not want to fight, they could just hole up in some system and do fine. Nids could not do that. They must move on to a new food source to survive. This alone shows us that Nids have a major weakness vis-a-vis Orks.

^ That is very interesting; I hadn't considered that.

It seems though the tyranids would also be able to hibernate considering their ships plod across the cosmos in search of fresh resources.

Yep, the Hive can shut down and in fact sometimes must shut down for lack of food. This is the weakness I was talking about that Orks don't share.

 Manchu wrote:
Orks seem able to "farm" food from their own waste.

Actually, Orkoid ecology is quite interesting. It's part of their genetics.

Ork spores first spawn mushrooms and snotlings to tend to the mushrooms. Then, as the gestalt psychic energy from the snotlings gets strong enough, it starts spawning grots, whom start building infrastructure, weapons, camps, etc, in preparation for the final stage, in which Orks spawn, and form the head of the society.

On a side thought, do tyranids have a preference for biomass that fights back? I know this may seem silly, but wouldn't it be less effort to harvest a planet with little animal life but rich with plant life? Is there some stimulus to attack higher beings? Is a psychic presence needed, such as Terra, or even orks for that matter? Is that why Necrons are left alone?

I wonder because it seems there would be more planets of biomass without much resistance, so it would seem more tyranid creatures would not be combat-oriented but more akin to giant harvesters. Great, ponderous slugs slowly scouring every square foot of the planet surface comes to mind.

Maybe in the next codex? : P

They probably DO hav ethat sort of thing.

We just don't hear about it because 40k focuses on war.

The orks didn't see the Tyranids who tore their warboss limb from limb as a threat? Not buying it. And the tyranids use guerilla tactics pretty often, actually. Genestealer cults and such, you know.

Hunchkrot wrote:
The orks didn't see the Tyranids who tore their warboss limb from limb as a threat? Not buying it. And the tyranids use guerilla tactics pretty often, actually. Genestealer cults and such, you know.

Ok first off, the orks did not perceive the nids as a threat. This is obvious because the orks didn't retaliate. It has been shown many a time were an ork warboss is killed, and his waaaagh falls apart. The reason it falls apart is because there is no enemy that is tuff enough for them. At this time, warbosses who wanted to be leader of the Waaaagh fight for the leadership. Because of their inner fighting, this allows said weak enemies to become threats, were as before they were not. An example of this is Ghorola. Because the nids numbers were so low, the orks thought that Skarfang died because he was just weak.

If Skarfang was a tuff ork then he would have taken the nids down easily. Since the bugs killed him, then logically, he was a weak boss, it wasn't cause the nids were strong opponents, just that Skarfang was stupid and weak. I mean, how could they be a threat, only one ship got through, and landed not even a tribes worth of nids, that shouldn't be so tough.

This is the kinda stuff the ork warbosses thought as they battled each other because they thought that they were the toughtest orks out their and so on and so forth. The nids didn't really kill the orks, it was the ork warbosses pride. If you read the books, what usually stops the orks from actually winning is their belief that they can't possible lose till it is to late to see that because they thought the couldn't lose they left openings that the enemy could exploit to their victory. This happens alot in today's warfare and will continue to happen for as long as we see it.

Also Genestealer cults do not count as Guerrilla warfare. The reason being is that, they are a vanguard strain, meant to weaken the enemy, so that the main invasion of the hive fleet may commence with as little difficulty as possible. To do this, genestealers integrate themselves into society, and then when prepared, go for all out rebellion. This is to stir up chaos.

Other reasons why genestealer cults don't use Guerrilla warfare is because, when they start their revolution, they will usually have a good portion of the population on their side. Also, genestealers should have infiltrated the government by now, all the way to the top. Because of this, this effectively stops the military on the planet from becoming able to work efficiently. Indeed, it isn't unlikely to see two regiments of loyal pdf fighting each other because they both believe the other is corrupted.

Guerrilla warfare is when a smaller force fights a larger force using unorthadox tactics, and yes the genestealers do use unorthadox tactics, by the time they are usually found out, they are not the smaller force. The genestealers invade, integrate themselves part of the system, then ripe the system in half, effectively cutting off a united enemy. Indeed genestealer cults usually are the ones that are the larger force, and the IOM is the one using guerrilla tactics, because the genestealers have either fooled, infected, and put in people who will serve them. Brood brothers, serve to make the bulk of the pdf forces, so that when the time comes, they will turn, and leave the rest of the pdf without an army. Genestealers and 4th generations will infect\take over commanding positions in the pdf, making leadership a problem. This effectivly leaves a nothing but chaos, so that when the hive fleet comes there is no organized defence waiting for them.

Genestealers are not Guerrilla fighters but Saboteurs, and sleeper agents.

Skar fang did perceive them as a threat. In the current nid codex there's a quote from skar fang saying "dis ain't no stinkin scrap against puny gits dat run and hide behind walls when the killing starts, dis is proper fightin"

Lets move away from ghorala you still haven't argued against deathleaper being an example of nid tactics and the doom is also another example

Hive fleet jormungander also used strategy "jormungander favoured subtler methods than the siege tactics displayed by other hive fleets"

Interesting read


If it was mentioned already, sorry for reposting it

The War for Armageddon has a lot of infos about how fast orks grow from spore to "fighters". The more pressure, the faster the orks grow/reproduce. So on Octa there will be orkz grown to the seize of nobs in days I guess since on Arma it takes them around two months.

Genestealer cults don't work in Orkish society.

In fact, the very small cults that do survive being torn apart in the ork kultcha are swept up, genestealers and all, into the Ork Waagh.

Ork genestealer cults were available as 'freebootaz' in the same named book because the genestealer instinct is overwrought by the massive ork psychic power around them, they serve the orks they try to infiltrate, if the orks don't turn on them and break them for 'bein weird bugz'.

So, some things to consider:

Genestealer tactics, that would work on human, eldar, tau or most anything else biological in the galaxy, don't work on Orks. The Bugs end up serving the Greenskin kultcha.

Ork Weirdboyz can resist and effectively trap possession attempting Greater Daemons... Their psychic powers and the huge onslaught of the Waagh are, at least, capable of resisting the shadow in the warp and may well be capable of disrupting the synapse 'chain of command'. They serve two gods, often cited as beings so powerful they can terrorize the chaos gods like a couple of giant green jocks beating up the emos.

Orks can survive without food, by utilizing the algae in their system to photosynthesize and produce starches.

Orks flourish in conflict and especially in protracted conflict, growing larger, more aggressive and more likely to produce new weapons of war (Mekboyz, painboyz etc are stimulated by warfare to experiment further, creating new forms of weaponry, just like nids biomorphs).

Orks have warp-capable fleets, they can navigate the warp highly effectively using weirdboyz.

Tyranids are therefore unable to infiltrate and undermine ork world societies.

Tyranids must consume large amounts of biomass rapidly or fall back into a potentially deadly hibernation brought on by weakness.

Tyranids are incredibly slow in moving their fleets since the Narval (sp) was introduced and warp travel taken away.

It would be a big and propa fight, but if we're going All vs All and taking that, without actual numbers, to be around the same size forces, spanning entire star systems, the unified orks will resist the tyranids, entrench and then start pushing back, and when that happens, they'll sweep the bugs off the table.

And dont forget about the Ork startegists!!! Tricksy gitz! They surely give the orks an overwhelming advantage!

Get 'em ladz! Dakka dakka dakka!
WAAAGH! THE ORKS! WAAAGH!

Rotgob, ork strategist





Orks,.. gotta love em

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Genestealer cults don't work in Orkish society.

In fact, the very small cults that do survive being torn apart in the ork kultcha are swept up, genestealers and all, into the Ork Waagh.

Ork genestealer cults were available as 'freebootaz' in the same named book because the genestealer instinct is overwrought by the massive ork psychic power around them, they serve the orks they try to infiltrate, if the orks don't turn on them and break them for 'bein weird bugz'.

So, some things to consider:

Genestealer tactics, that would work on human, eldar, tau or most anything else biological in the galaxy, don't work on Orks. The Bugs end up serving the Greenskin kultcha.

Except that the most recent material on this, the last Tyranid Codex, has the Genestealer Cult in the Octarius sector thriving and spreading far and wise with great ease, before finally being purged. So while the Genestealer tactics that work on humans don't work on Orks, they clearly did something else that worked extremely well. Well enough to summon a sizable tendril of Leviathan.

Codex info since several years ago should be ignored... See Necrons, who were big bad boys and now are just skinny dudes next door. Next Ork codex could say, what, that some warboss has raped a Hive Queen and that 'nids are slowly but surely becoming a newer squig breed or somefink.

Xyptc wrote:

Except that the most recent material on this, the last Tyranid Codex, has the Genestealer Cult in the Octarius sector thriving and spreading far and wise with great ease, before finally being purged. So while the Genestealer tactics that work on humans don't work on Orks, they clearly did something else that worked extremely well. Well enough to summon a sizable tendril of Leviathan.

Does it state genestealer cults?

Let me go check this..


Page 30 of the nid codex says 'within weeks the tyranid infestation had spread to a dozen worlds' which does not mention stealer cults, nor tyranid dominance on those worlds, but likely genestealers reaching orkish worlds from the Hulk that Kryptman sent into that realm and sending out psychic signals.

Is there any other part of the codex that indicates cults of greenstealers? Or of them dominating the local orkish cultures? I'm not finding any.

willhman wrote:

Hunchkrot wrote:
The orks didn't see the Tyranids who tore their warboss limb from limb as a threat? Not buying it. And the tyranids use guerilla tactics pretty often, actually. Genestealer cults and such, you know.

Ok first off, the orks did not perceive the nids as a threat. This is obvious because the orks didn't retaliate. It has been shown many a time were an ork warboss is killed, and his waaaagh falls apart. The reason it falls apart is because there is no enemy that is tuff enough for them. At this time, warbosses who wanted to be leader of the Waaaagh fight for the leadership. Because of their inner fighting, this allows said weak enemies to become threats, were as before they were not. An example of this is Ghorola. Because the nids numbers were so low, the orks thought that Skarfang died because he was just weak.

If Skarfang was a tuff ork then he would have taken the nids down easily. Since the bugs killed him, then logically, he was a weak boss, it wasn't cause the nids were strong opponents, just that Skarfang was stupid and weak. I mean, how could they be a threat, only one ship got through, and landed not even a tribes worth of nids, that shouldn't be so tough.

This is the kinda stuff the ork warbosses thought as they battled each other because they thought that they were the toughtest orks out their and so on and so forth. The nids didn't really kill the orks, it was the ork warbosses pride. If you read the books, what usually stops the orks from actually winning is their belief that they can't possible lose till it is to late to see that because they thought the couldn't lose they left openings that the enemy could exploit to their victory. This happens alot in today's warfare and will continue to happen for as long as we see it.

Also Genestealer cults do not count as Guerrilla warfare. The reason being is that, they are a vanguard strain, meant to weaken the enemy, so that the main invasion of the hive fleet may commence with as little difficulty as possible. To do this, genestealers integrate themselves into society, and then when prepared, go for all out rebellion. This is to stir up chaos.

Other reasons why genestealer cults don't use Guerrilla warfare is because, when they start their revolution, they will usually have a good portion of the population on their side. Also, genestealers should have infiltrated the government by now, all the way to the top. Because of this, this effectively stops the military on the planet from becoming able to work efficiently. Indeed, it isn't unlikely to see two regiments of loyal pdf fighting each other because they both believe the other is corrupted.

Guerrilla warfare is when a smaller force fights a larger force using unorthadox tactics, and yes the genestealers do use unorthadox tactics, by the time they are usually found out, they are not the smaller force. The genestealers invade, integrate themselves part of the system, then ripe the system in half, effectively cutting off a united enemy. Indeed genestealer cults usually are the ones that are the larger force, and the IOM is the one using guerrilla tactics, because the genestealers have either fooled, infected, and put in people who will serve them. Brood brothers, serve to make the bulk of the pdf forces, so that when the time comes, they will turn, and leave the rest of the pdf without an army. Genestealers and 4th generations will infect\take over commanding positions in the pdf, making leadership a problem. This effectivly leaves a nothing but chaos, so that when the hive fleet comes there is no organized defence waiting for them.

Genestealers are not Guerrilla fighters but Saboteurs, and sleeper agents.

You do have a very valid point on genestealers being saboteurs rather than guerrilas. I'd never looked at it like that. But as for Skarfang? That's a whole lot of inferrence. I've never read anything that stated how strong Skarfang was, or anything that suggested the orks didn't know he was killed by nids, or anything that suggested the orks didn't percieve the nids as a threat, before or after Skarfang's death.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And no, there weren't any cults in Octarius. But I do remember reading about the existence of ork cults recently. In the background story for the campaign weekend for June, maybe? I'll look it up later.

Hunchkrot wrote:

And no, there weren't any cults in Octarius. But I do remember reading about the existence of ork cults recently. In the background story for the campaign weekend for June, maybe? I'll look it up later.

They exist, in limited numbers. You used to be able to buy them to work in Ork armies, the genestealers fell into working for the orks instead of the intended, due to the ork's odd reproductive cycles and really potent psychic power.

Lexicanum, citing Freebooterz, says Orks can instinctively detect alien infection. If that is accurate (MGS, can you confirm?) and still current, it pretty much puts the last nail in the coffin for arguing genestealers are a Nid advantage in this debate. Genestealers are only a large-scale threat if they can go undetected for a long period of time.

 Manchu wrote:
Lexicanum, citing Freebooterz, says Orks can instinctively detect alien infection. If that is accurate (MGS, can you confirm?) and still current, it pretty much puts the last nail in the coffin for arguing genestealers are a Nid advantage in his debate. Genestealers are only a large-scale threat if they can go undetected for a long period of time.

It is indeed and has ever been thus.

The genestealer cult relies on it's human (or whatever) looking generations or infected hosts passing through normal society and achieving positions of power, Orks can 'smell' the 'not right-ness' of genestealer taint, just as they can with chaos taint or (from back in the day) vampire taint.

And, as I mentioned, it's also clearly stated in these old books that the genestealers get caught up by the saturation of gestalt orkish psychic energy and succumb to it, the smallish bug-hybrid warbands become an underclass/mercenary faction of regular orkish society and serve in the ork waaaghs, even against hive fleets...

It has ever been thus and has never yet been retconned.

It's strange that the "static charge" of Waaagh! psychic energy does not disrupt the Hive Mind.

 Manchu wrote:
It's strange that the "static charge" of Waaagh! psychic energy does not disrupt the Hive Mind.

I imagine that it would, again it would be dependent on numbers, saturation and dominance of forces, but I'd well imagine the disruptive, brutal and chaotic nature of the Waaagh backfeeding through the local shadow in the warp would wreck serious damage to synapse control and communications, much like daemons and their warpstorms.

Then again, if there is sufficient tyranid dominance, the shadow in the warp would start bringing it's black brick wall of order to the local warp, setting it to the very antithesis of what sustains chaos or empowers the orks. A while back I compared it to an ephemeral game of tetris, the locked down, ordered parts of the warp where the hive fleets were forming a great wall of 'order' that other powers can't manipulate or thrive in. The Ork waaagh seems incredibly well suited to cracking that wall, like a giant green wrecking ball.