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"What exactly are the "strengths" of the daemon codex? Is it MTO daemons? Is it Psychic-shooting daemons with a lot of Level 3 Heralds and pink horror shooting? Is it FMC-spam? Is it horde daemons with 100-120 assault troops supported by a few big or fast guys? Is it a seeker-cavalry-spam?"

It's probably going to take a mix of those ideas to find a balanced list. Hence, "balance". You can play an aggressive list without having to take 2 Monster HQ choices. I understand that has been your template in the past with both 5th/6th Necrons and Nids, but the Daemon codex is really built on synergy.

I would start every list with 3 Tz Heralds, a unit of Horrors, a unit of Seekers, and a unit of Hounds. From there you have many possible routes. GD/Princes, Fast Cav, Grinders, Troop Hordes, CSM/IG allies, etc.

Great report so far, Jim. I really appreciate the hard work you put into these. That is what makes them so enjoyable to read.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Have to mirror this sentiment. BT's are really not that great for MTO IMO. Not unless your playing a poorly built list or a novice. BT's will at best be in assault T2 against a smart opponent and at 250 pts of pure awesome sauce in combat they will generally wipe whatever they hit meaning come T3 your opponent will blow them away, grimoir on a BT is too unreliable as you have just seen. As for SG's I really am starting to hate phlegm, same justification as before. Smart opponents won't "perceive" a false threat or they aren't smart. A direct fire BS 3 battle canon is really unimpressive, with proper spacing it threatens 3 dudes IF it hits who then can get intervening cover easily because they sit behind your lines meaning 2 dead marines... Again very underwhelming. Now give them MoS and the torrent flamer in case they need to burn a screen and run those guys and you have a very reliable threat to MEQ squads and great horde control. Your build is basically a poor mans LRBT that costs more and isn't av14.

I have to say that despite there not being one predominant build I think your ignoring the fact that there doesn't need to be one build particularly but I definitely think in order to make demons work you need to use heralds as they are force multipliers much like tervigons in your tyranids. Without them most demon infantry is extremely underwhelming. I also would like to add that demons fit the same trend as the other 6th books as they rock the FA slot. Seekers, flesh hounds and the flys are all amazing, even the furies marked and used properly can be awesome. I think no matter the build the best lists will probably exhaust the FA, HQ and troop slots.

Blood letters are sadly the 4th choice unless your playing a theme. They are worse in assault then demonettes, and are less durable then plague B AND horrors.

Great report never the less, I like the twists and turns so far. It always makes for a fun read when the "unthinkable" becomes real

There are many different builds for MTO daemons. Dual-thirsters is just one of them and I think they can be effective. However, you need to play them with some finesse. Basically what this build (and actually, any MTO build) is is a delayed Turn 2 beta-strike build. All daemon builds are like this because you just cannot assault on Turn 1 unless you are going second and your opponent foolishly comes to you. You need to bide your time until Turn 2 when the rest of your army can catch up. Then you unleash hell on your opponent. But until then, those thirsters need to survive and you will need to use every "trick" in your daemon arsenal to do so. Then in assault, you need to pick your combat carefully. Do not go for cheap rhinos or 5-man units that you will probably wipe out. You can go after 5-man MEQ units. Just do Smash attacks to reduce your number of attacks and with I9, you will most likely catch them in a sweeping advance and remain in combat (due to ATSKNF). Like I said, you have to play your hammer unit with a little finesse. And I haven't even mentioned the other possible threats - seekers, beasts of Nurgle, etc. - that should be supporting your FMC's with a Turn 2 assault.

Both the phlegm and the torrent weapon has its good and its bad. I like the phlegm because:

1) It makes the grinders more of a threat to MEQ armies.

2) With so many daemons, it creates a bottleneck where many times, your grinders get blocked by your own units. The torrent gun just won't have the range in many of these instances, whereas the phlegm can keep firing.

3) More importantly, you can control how your opponent moves. With phlegm, you can force your opponent to hug/stay in cover instead of advancing like they would normally like to.

4) You can insta-gib other daemons and multi-wound units.

My Bump-N-Grind daemons is just 1 build that I am trying out. I have also tried out Tzeentch Heralds (2 of them plust a BT) and I must say that I like that as well. This is just 1 build and it isn't in any way definitive of a competitive daemon build. In the battles to come, you will see me run a number of different daemon builds, including some of the builds that I have mentioned above. The thing I like about my current dual-thirster-dual-grinder is more because it suits my style of play as opposed to it being the penultimate daemon army. Being fun to play is just as important to me as being competitive.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hippesthippo wrote:

"What exactly are the "strengths" of the daemon codex? Is it MTO daemons? Is it Psychic-shooting daemons with a lot of Level 3 Heralds and pink horror shooting? Is it FMC-spam? Is it horde daemons with 100-120 assault troops supported by a few big or fast guys? Is it a seeker-cavalry-spam?"

It's probably going to take a mix of those ideas to find a balanced list. Hence, "balance". You can play an aggressive list without having to take 2 Monster HQ choices. I understand that has been your template in the past with both 5th/6th Necrons and Nids, but the Daemon codex is really built on synergy.

I would start every list with 3 Tz Heralds, a unit of Horrors, a unit of Seekers, and a unit of Hounds. From there you have many possible routes. GD/Princes, Fast Cav, Grinders, Troop Hordes, CSM/IG allies, etc.

Great report so far, Jim. I really appreciate the hard work you put into these. That is what makes them so enjoyable to read.

Yeah, there are more "balanced" daemon builds like a mix of fast units and shooty units. Then there are the more "unbalanced" daemon builds like MTO daemons. Honestly, most MTO builds are not really balanced army builds. They tend to forgo shooting for mobility and assault prowess. These are like the nob biker armies, the seer council armies and other fast hammer armies. And although my MTO daemons are not psychic-heavy, you better believe that there is a lot of synergy to this army. That is because almost all the units are fast and complement each other well. It may not be the same type of synergy as piling layers and layers of psychic buffs/de-buffs on your own/opponent's units, but they work well together to put a lot of pressure on your opponent and provide redundancy for each other.

Currently, I am playing MTO daemons more for fun. However, if I go to a tournament, I may just bring a more "balanced" daemon army with a little more shooting in it (i.e. with some Tzeentch Heralds). All the units you mentioned are good units and many of them are inter-changeable to a degree. I suspect that with more tournament experience, we may just see a template come out for daemons as we are seeing currently with tyranids. But until then, the fun is in the discovery process and right now, I am having a lot of fun with my particular style of daemons. Does that mean it will be the only style I play? Heck no! There's just too many fun builds in the new daemon codex and I am the type who likes to experiment.

jy2 wrote:Gants then charge the grinder. The grinder kills 1 with Overwatch and then rolls poorly in combat to kill another 1 gant only. Sigh....

Can't do that; no charging vehicles that you are unable to hurt.

 jy2 wrote:



The reason for flanking with the FMC's is to try to deny some of the shooting from your opponents army. I go to the flank and I only need to worry about 2 units trying to ground my DP. I go straight for the tervigons, who are screened out BTW, and now I'm going to be a target of 4-5 units that can try to shoot me down/ground me. You need to play FMC's with a little finesse. One mistake and you can lose them quite easily against a good opponent with a balanced list. I felt he had a better chance at staying in the air by going around the flanks.

Looks like you made that mistake then . When you also say Tervigons how many? I know more than one, but they would have combined probably beat the Prince's face in, especially if they have crushing claws. Sounds like you just flew them straight into the hornet's nest and paid for it.

Also, units cannot charge a vehicle they cannot hurt, so Termagants shouldn't have charged the Grinder.

Battle report completed.

 Janthkin wrote:

jy2 wrote:Gants then charge the grinder. The grinder kills 1 with Overwatch and then rolls poorly in combat to kill another 1 gant only. Sigh....

Can't do that; no charging vehicles that you are unable to hurt.

I think you forgot from one of our earlier games.

From the BRB FAQ:


Q: Can I charge an enemy unit that I can’t hurt? (p20)
A: Yes.

 jy2 wrote:


Battle report completed.

 Janthkin wrote:

jy2 wrote:Gants then charge the grinder. The grinder kills 1 with Overwatch and then rolls poorly in combat to kill another 1 gant only. Sigh....

Can't do that; no charging vehicles that you are unable to hurt.

I think you forgot from one of our earlier games.

From the BRB FAQ:


Q: Can I charge an enemy unit that I can’t hurt? (p20)
A: Yes.

Generic unit, yes. S3 Guardsmen are perfectly allowed to charge a T8 Wraithlord. Vehicles, however, have a specific rule prohibiting that (in the "no free movement for charging a Land Raider" sort of way).

 mercer wrote:

Looks like you made that mistake then . When you also say Tervigons how many? I know more than one, but they would have combined probably beat the Prince's face in, especially if they have crushing claws. Sounds like you just flew them straight into the hornet's nest and paid for it.

Also, units cannot charge a vehicle they cannot hurt, so Termagants shouldn't have charged the Grinder.

Also, there were just too many units in that area for the DP to get a good landing since he could only move 24". At most, he could have only moved to within striking distance of the unit of gants that the furies assaulted.

In any case, there is clearly a difference of opinion in tactics here. You have yours, the more suicidal and direct approach. I have mine, the more cautious and opportunist striker approach. BTW, my tervigons didn't actually have crushing claws.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Janthkin wrote:

Generic unit, yes. S3 Guardsmen are perfectly allowed to charge a T8 Wraithlord. Vehicles, however, have a specific rule prohibiting that (in the "no free movement for charging a Land Raider" sort of way).

No, the FAQ is a blanket statement regarding ALL enemy units, not just "infantry" enemy units. It does not differentiate between vehicles or MC's or normal infantry, just as long as it is an "enemy unit".

I think the FAQ answer is just referring to the general assault rules on pg 20 of the rules about not being able to assault something you cannot hurt. The vehicle section then gives us additional specific rules about not being able to assault vehicles you cannot hurt.

Great report! You've always make good reports with good photos and just the highlights of what is going on. I was hoping the Daemons would pull it out. I think I've seen Nids lose more to Nids than I have seen them lose to Grey Knights! Enfeeble seems to be the downfall for them....

 jy2 wrote:

There are many different builds for MTO daemons. Dual-thirsters is just one of them and I think they can be effective. However, you need to play them with some finesse. Basically what this build (and actually, any MTO build) is is a delayed Turn 2 beta-strike build. All daemon builds are like this because you just cannot assault on Turn 1 unless you are going second and your opponent foolishly comes to you. You need to bide your time until Turn 2 when the rest of your army can catch up. Then you unleash hell on your opponent. But until then, those thirsters need to survive and you will need to use every "trick" in your daemon arsenal to do so. Then in assault, you need to pick your combat carefully. Do not go for cheap rhinos or 5-man units that you will probably wipe out. You can go after 5-man MEQ units. Just do Smash attacks to reduce your number of attacks and with I9, you will most likely catch them in a sweeping advance and remain in combat (due to ATSKNF). Like I said, you have to play your hammer unit with a little finesse. And I haven't even mentioned the other possible threats - seekers, beasts of Nurgle, etc. - that should be supporting your FMC's with a Turn 2 assault.

Both the phlegm and the torrent weapon has its good and its bad. I like the phlegm because:

1) It makes the grinders more of a threat to MEQ armies.

2) With so many daemons, it creates a bottleneck where many times, your grinders get blocked by your own units. The torrent gun just won't have the range in many of these instances, whereas the phlegm can keep firing.

3) More importantly, you can control how your opponent moves. With phlegm, you can force your opponent to hug/stay in cover instead of advancing like they would normally like to.

4) You can insta-gib other daemons and multi-wound units.

My Bump-N-Grind daemons is just 1 build that I am trying out. I have also tried out Tzeentch Heralds (2 of them plust a BT) and I must say that I like that as well. This is just 1 build and it isn't in any way definitive of a competitive daemon build. In the battles to come, you will see me run a number of different daemon builds, including some of the builds that I have mentioned above. The thing I like about my current dual-thirster-dual-grinder is more because it suits my style of play as opposed to it being the penultimate daemon army. Being fun to play is just as important to me as being competitive.

I just don't think we will agree here. With rewards those thirsters are ~300 pts each, thats insane for a unit that has no force multiplication factor, no psychic presence and has virtually none present shooting. Flyrants are not perfect but they run in at a lower cost and literally add everything the BT lacks, psychic presence, shadows, reserve manipulation, excellent shooting and even a better save when swooping through cover. This is the only reason why the expensive flying hive tyrant is justified. I think the LoC is better then the thirster in just about every situation, his stats are excellent he can passively be S8 for cheap and he can swoop and participate in buffing your army and applying offense.

The bloodthirster has no shooting (1 s6 shot is terrible) meaning unlike the flyrant or LoC he needs to glide in order to add any real threat, this is why he is awful IMO. Your opponent can read their play every turn, if you choose to swoop every turn for resilience then he isn'ta real threat, if you glide you are always going to run the risk of getting shot up, smashing or not he is just plain bad against cost efficient units because he won't recoup his cost that way. If its a small unit even smashing he has good odds of killing a unit on the charge, don't forget with challenges it's easy to hem him in until your next turn meaning he can be shot. EX. 10 man tac squad is charged, they challenge and you must except meaning they live in your assault. Next turn smash or not they are going to end up with 3-5 modles meaning your still stuck, if you kill them off in your turn your get shot. If you don't kill them you have essentially dedicated a 300 pt FMC HQ to tarpit a unit thats less then 200 pts which IMHO is just plain bad. Note that at I10 he will always sweep mech meaning he has to stay locked with MEQ that have ATSKNF. If he is being used to assault combat squads then he needs to eat A LOT of combat squads to justify his cost.

Note that because your build only runs to battle canons for shooting if they are in transports your list suffers horribly. S6 vector strike is awful AT and AP3 battle canons are terrible too and can't be relied on. I would imagine just 3 annihilation barges would hard counter your list.

As for the phlegm, I think it is all based on your opponent. Again I will state that against a smart opponent he will not care about a BS 3 direct firing blast as it is horribly inefficient at killing MEQ. Proper spacing means with hits he will only wound a few and with cover thats just a bad piece of artillery IMHO. I would much rather DS him with the torrent flamer or run him up field with MoS. With MoS he is moving a minimum of 10" out of your DZ turn 1 with an average of 16.5" meaning he is a legitimate threat, instead of using your demons as cover/speed bump, use the grinders in this fashion allowing your horrors to shoot a torrent of fire past them (note you can fire all shots from any one horror in the brick) if they need to they can go to ground for a 4++ rerolling 1's. Now your enemy has a truly daunting decision. Shoot the impending SG's or the demos that are shooting you up but can get an amazing save. At 150 for a Mos SG they are the default HS choice for me.

 jy2 wrote:

 mercer wrote:


Also, there were just too many units in that area for the DP to get a good landing since he could only move 24". At most, he could have only moved to within striking distance of the unit of gants that the furies assaulted.

In any case, there is clearly a difference of opinion in tactics here. You have yours, the more suicidal and direct approach. I have mine, the more cautious and opportunist striker approach. BTW, my tervigons didn't actually have crushing claws.

You do know a monstrous creature can run 2D6?

how do you know what my suicidal approach is when I haven't mentioned it? From the sounds of things you play sucidical too by flying straight towards units which bring it down and two Tervigons. That's why I said IF they have crushing claws, not that they did have

Any way whatever works for you is what works for you

Good game! My instincts were that Nids would have the advantage in this match-up due to number of attacks and poison.

 airmang wrote:
I think the FAQ answer is just referring to the general assault rules on pg 20 of the rules about not being able to assault something you cannot hurt. The vehicle section then gives us additional specific rules about not being able to assault vehicles you cannot hurt.

Great report! You've always make good reports with good photos and just the highlights of what is going on. I was hoping the Daemons would pull it out. I think I've seen Nids lose more to Nids than I have seen them lose to Grey Knights! Enfeeble seems to be the downfall for them....

Thanks. I think in this game, the lack of balance in the daemon army did them in. They didn't have any shooting to clear out some of screening tyranid gribblies.


As for charging the walker, from the BRB (p. 76):

"However, a unit cannot charge a vehicle that it cannot hurt...."


From the FAQ:

Q: Can I charge an enemy unit that I can’t hurt? (p20)
A: Yes.


I'm not sure how much clearer the FAQ needs to be. It basically overturns what is written in the BRB. And no, the FAQ does not specify infantry or MC or vehicle that it cannot hurt. It is just a blanket statement that applies to ALL enemy units (with the exception of flyers, which can't be assaulted at all).

 Red Corsair wrote:

I just don't think we will agree here.

I agree. Let's just agree to disagree, do you not disagree?

Thirsters definitely are not a balanced unit due to their inability to really shoot. However, he is one big, bad-a$$ mofo who will scare the bejesus out of most armies. The intimidation factor alone that one BT represents is what makes me want to use them. And if you are not careful, who knows, they may win you a game or 2.

 mercer wrote:

You do know a monstrous creature can run 2D6?

how do you know what my suicidal approach is when I haven't mentioned it? From the sounds of things you play sucidical too by flying straight towards units which bring it down and two Tervigons. That's why I said IF they have crushing claws, not that they did have

Any way whatever works for you is what works for you

I guess we'd have to agree to disagree here as well.

If your FMC is not trying to make his way to the enemy, then he isn't a "threat" at all. The question is how to do it in such a way that you can deny as much of the enemy firepower as you can.

BTW, it's FMC's that can run 2D6", not just monstrous creatures.

 Reecius wrote:
Good game! My instincts were that Nids would have the advantage in this match-up due to number of attacks and poison.

Yeah, same here. Also, that the bugs had better shooting thanks to their flyrants.

That's why I felt that daemons were the underdogs in this matchup.

You said your lack of shooting did you in? Drop a BT and Bloodletters, add Heralds/Horrors, give your Grinders Flamers, yeah?

Also, notice how that FAQ refers to pg20?

 hippesthippo wrote:
You said your lack of shooting did you in? Drop a BT and Bloodletters, add Heralds/Horrors, give your Grinders Flamers, yeah?

Also, notice how that FAQ refers to pg20?

Don't worry. One of my daemon builds has 1 BT and 2 Tzeentch Heralds.

And while not as good as the flamer in clearing out screens, the phlegm can still be used for that purpose to a degree as evidenced by my grinder wiping out the termagants in order to charge the tervigon.


As for discussion regarding charging a walker, please move it to YMDC. You can throw a link to here if you'd like, but as far as I am concerned, it is DONE here.

 jy2 wrote:

 hippesthippo wrote:
You said your lack of shooting did you in? Drop a BT and Bloodletters, add Heralds/Horrors, give your Grinders Flamers, yeah?

Also, notice how that FAQ refers to pg20?

Don't worry. One of my daemon builds has 1 BT and 2 Tzeentch Heralds.

And while not as good as the flamer in clearing out screens, the phlegm can still be used for that purpose to a degree as evidenced by my grinder wiping out the termagants in order to charge the tervigon.


As for discussion regarding charging a walker, please move it to YMDC. You can throw a link to here if you'd like, but as far as I am concerned, it is DONE here.

OMG JY2 you cant charge that walker... . haha j/k faq spells it out pretty clearly on that front. Sometimes the faq changes rules that seem clear in the book.

As for the game. I figured it was going to be rough on daemons. The new daemon dex is too unpredictable to begin with. The one thing they have going for them is cheap troops. Tyranids counter that with cheap troops and free troops. Assessment: Nids should reliably beat daemons throughout this edition.

 Tomb King wrote:

OMG JY2 you cant charge that walker... . haha j/k faq spells it out pretty clearly on that front. Sometimes the faq changes rules that seem clear in the book.

As for the game. I figured it was going to be rough on daemons. The new daemon dex is too unpredictable to begin with. The one thing they have going for them is cheap troops. Tyranids counter that with cheap troops and free troops. Assessment: Nids should reliably beat daemons throughout this edition.

Yeah, tyranids really do have the tools to take on the daemons. It is not unwinnable, but it is just a matchup that favors the bugs generally. Like you said, all the free troops that they get can really blunt a MTO army. Even my wraithwing necrons have trouble against tervigon tyranids. Against them, I feel that daemons can really benefit from the portaglyph as long as they can protect it from the hive guards.

I tossed up a YMDC thread on the "assaulting vehicles" question.

I agree with most of the criticisms on both sides here honestly. I do think that Daemons having cheap but effective (if fragile) troops is one of their primary advantages however, and as such I didn't like the list as presented. With so few troops against a list that will be able to just power out troops all game you were bound to be outnumbered. Not to mention going in knowing you were going to get grounded and then bogged down with Termagants...

Overall I still figured the Daemons had a chance, but not a big one. The specific lists match up to favor the Tyranids as has been cited, I think the Daemons would have fared better against almost any other army, though some luck mitigated this to a point...

 Janthkin wrote:
I tossed up a YMDC thread on the "assaulting vehicles" question.

Thanks Kevin.

I will try to respond as best I can even though I don't currently have my BRB with me.

Batmarine wrote:
I agree with most of the criticisms on both sides here honestly. I do think that Daemons having cheap but effective (if fragile) troops is one of their primary advantages however, and as such I didn't like the list as presented. With so few troops against a list that will be able to just power out troops all game you were bound to be outnumbered. Not to mention going in knowing you were going to get grounded and then bogged down with Termagants...

Overall I still figured the Daemons had a chance, but not a big one. The specific lists match up to favor the Tyranids as has been cited, I think the Daemons would have fared better against almost any other army, though some luck mitigated this to a point...

I think you are going to find that there will be 2 main schools of thought with regards to a competitive daemon army. The first will be a troop-centric daemon build. This type build will consist mainly of troops led by Heralds with some fast support units. The 2nd will be a non-troop-centric daemon build. This will be 3-4 minimal troop choices with the rest of the army devoted to fast, hard-hitting units like FMC-spam or Elite/Fast Attack-heavy builds. Daemon with CSM allies will also fall in the 2nd category as they will most likely include a DP, 10 cultists and a heldrake. However, at this time, it is still too early to tell which will become the more dominant build. I suspect it will be the 2nd build, but we will probably find out 6 months from now.

Mother of the year award to that Tervigon...

Also the picture of the Daemon Prince and Biovore on opposite sides of the crater on turn 5 - well, this is awkward.

 Cieged wrote:
Mother of the year award to that Tervigon...

Also the picture of the Daemon Prince and Biovore on opposite sides of the crater on turn 5 - well, this is awkward.

Lol.

Don't forget about the pic of the tervigon in assault with the soulgrinder in Daemon Turn 4.

Congrats Jy2 on beating yourself.

That was a very chaotic game. It seemed to come down to war of attrition with the Nids coming out on top thanks to a healthy supply of gants.

Nice showdown with the 2 Thirsters going head to head against the 2 Flyrants.

Thanks for sharing!

Saw this batrep develop, nice work.. until the game length killed you. Turn 6 was brutal for the daemons, and the tervigons spamming screens was a big factor into not eliminating them. If you have had more shooting, maybe you could whittle down those gaunts more. Also, were some of the gaunts out of synapse range, especially the ones that tarpitted the soul grinder on t5-6? since they lost combat twice they would have had to take ld. I could be wrong, but the pictures had it look like the gaunts were out of synapse.

Maybe next time stock up on flamers, gaunts are t3 after all, so they may fail some toughness tests, and they can provide some devastating overwatch hits.

I guess I am just loathe to think that the daemons will get squashed every time :( Though I have to say this was definetly a huge up hill battle for them i was wishfully thinking they pull out a hard fought win. We have to remember too though that Jy has a lot more experience running this Nids list and perfecting it whilst Daemons is new for all of us.

I also have to agree there will be two types of competitive builds. Troop centric armies can be really nasty, what with the heralds, loci, and awesome troops. Also the Daemons do have some nasty big boys too so that will certainly be the second. Personally I thin that the real winning "secret" will be finding a medium of the two. Having enough targets to make people have to prioritize while also having waves of units to crash into the enemy. The only real issue I've found so far is dealing with vehicles... But I think things like Land raiders will give anyone problems.

POST-GAME ANALYSIS:
While I suspected that tyranids would give daemons a difficult fight, there were several things that I didn't expect in this battle:

- I didn't expect the flyrants to both die like that to the bloodthirsters, especially not T8 Iron Armed flyrants.

- I didn't expect the Warlord thirster (thirstlord) to survive all that shooting and still stay in the air.

- The Doom didn't do very much besides draining 2W from the non-Warlord thirster. I thought he would have played a bigger role....but I guess you could call tying up the soulgrinder for 3 rounds of combat and preventing it from making it to the daemon objective a contribution.

- The last tervigon to spawn so many gants. This was instrumental in the tyranid victory.

- The tervigon actually beating the soulgrinder in combat.

Other than those, the game happened pretty much as I expected - swamp the scary daemons with gants and as long as the tervigon can keep producing, tyranids will have the advantage. This game really emphasizes one of the weaknesses of this daemon build - its lack of shooting. Without shooting, the big nasty daemons just couldn't take down the flyrants or get pass the bubble-wrap gants (and even hive guards). They couldn't get at the core of the tyranid army - the tervigons. And had I not landed my flyrants in anticipation of an assault, they wouldn't have been able to do anything to the flyrants as well. That is just one of the inherent weaknesses of a fast daemonic MTO build. If you want to play this style of daemons, you will have to understand its limitations and find a way to play around it.

Now there has been some debate with regards to the soulgrinder here as well. One of the builds - the one that I run - is a Tzeentch grinder with phlegm. The other build as recommended by some of the readers is a Slaanesh grinder with the bateful torrent. Both are actually really good grinder builds IMO. In this case, the slaanesh grinder would be more useful against tyranids because tyranids just really don't care about the battle cannon shots (unless you are running tyranids warriors or biovores out in the open). The baleful torrent, however, will burn away screening gribblies with relative ease. So why am I still running phlegm grinders? Because I feel that in my TAC daemon list, the phelgm will be more useful due to the higher probability of facing MEQ armies. There are just so many MEQ armies out there compared to the Xenos that I feel the phlegm would be slightly more useful. Moreover, the ability to insta-kill units makes the phelgm more attractive to me as well, especially since the newest codex out - Chaos Daemons - have so many multi-wound units. However, in the future, you may see me running 1 of each grinder. I think each grinder has its place and in a TAC daemon army, having both types of grinders give you some more flexibility.

 jy2 wrote:

I guess we'd have to agree to disagree here as well.

If your FMC is not trying to make his way to the enemy, then he isn't a "threat" at all. The question is how to do it in such a way that you can deny as much of the enemy firepower as you can.

BTW, it's FMC's that can run 2D6", not just monstrous creatures.

We both know I am talking about a FMC as that's what this conversation is about .

Indeed, a big flying thing which is hanging back isn't much of an issue, though I am sticking to my guns and saying you flown it straight into the hornet's nest. Each one to their own like.

Over all how did you find the Daemons?

I cannot say I am surprised a Bloodthirster beating a Hive Tyrant in combat nor as I am surprised of a Tervigon beating a Soul Grinder in combat.

 SabrX wrote:
Congrats Jy2 on beating yourself.

That was a very chaotic game. It seemed to come down to war of attrition with the Nids coming out on top thanks to a healthy supply of gants.

Nice showdown with the 2 Thirsters going head to head against the 2 Flyrants.

Thanks for sharing!

Thanks!

And I am going to continue beating myself.

Got a couple more test games planned - against their arch-nemesis, the Grey Knights and against my very competitive and balanced Necron Wraithwing Tesla-crons.

 ace101 wrote:
Saw this batrep develop, nice work.. until the game length killed you. Turn 6 was brutal for the daemons, and the tervigons spamming screens was a big factor into not eliminating them. If you have had more shooting, maybe you could whittle down those gaunts more. Also, were some of the gaunts out of synapse range, especially the ones that tarpitted the soul grinder on t5-6? since they lost combat twice they would have had to take ld. I could be wrong, but the pictures had it look like the gaunts were out of synapse.

Maybe next time stock up on flamers, gaunts are t3 after all, so they may fail some toughness tests, and they can provide some devastating overwatch hits.

Yeah, daemons were winning at the end of T5....if only the game had ended!

I believe at one point, the gants were out of synapse but they passed their morale test. Then next turn, the tervigon 'vemoved up and it was all kosher again. As a tyranid player, I always try to ensure that assaulting gribblies are within range of synapse, usually by trailing some gants behind.

The lone biovore was also out of synapse but made 2 Instinctive Behavior tests. But in my reports, I usually don't mention this unless it affects the game. If I don't indicate that a unit has failed some type of LD test - whether it be morale, psychic, 3D6 spirit leech, or whatever - you can assume that either 1) they didn't have to take it or 2) they made it.

While you can still use flamers, I've pretty much written them off in favor of faster assault threats. If they still had Warpfire like they did last edition, I would consider them but with only the template weapon, they are a long-shot to make my army.

 Benamint wrote:
I guess I am just loathe to think that the daemons will get squashed every time :( Though I have to say this was definetly a huge up hill battle for them i was wishfully thinking they pull out a hard fought win. We have to remember too though that Jy has a lot more experience running this Nids list and perfecting it whilst Daemons is new for all of us.

I also have to agree there will be two types of competitive builds. Troop centric armies can be really nasty, what with the heralds, loci, and awesome troops. Also the Daemons do have some nasty big boys too so that will certainly be the second. Personally I thin that the real winning "secret" will be finding a medium of the two. Having enough targets to make people have to prioritize while also having waves of units to crash into the enemy. The only real issue I've found so far is dealing with vehicles... But I think things like Land raiders will give anyone problems.

Daemons can still be very good. As a matter of fact, I think that they will do the squashing against many opponents. In any given game, they can very easily squash their opponents, even in a bad matchup. Where the problem arises is their ability to win consistently in a series of games (i.e. such as in a 6-7 game Grand Tournament). With the imbalance and random nature of the codex, I think this is going to be much harder for them to do. Just 1 roll on the Warpstorm table could potentially screw with the army or if you roll high for Daemonic Instability or if you don't get the gifts that you want. In just 1 game, chances are lower, but over the course of several games, chances become much greater that you (as in the daemon player "you") will screw yourself.

I think daemons are one of the very few armies where balance and a middle-ground won't get you the results you want. Thus, if you bring a mix between troop-centric daemons and fast, hard-hitting non-troop daemons, you will get a more balanced army with more consistent results....but you won't be winning any of the larger tournaments with them. If you want to really win with daemons, IMO you need to take a gamble and go with one of he more extreme builds. Overload your opponent with one of the stronger aspects of daemons and take a risk on the Warpstorm tables, greater gifts, whatever. It is somewhat of a paradox but that is what I believe - to win a GT with daemons, you need to take a more extreme approach. But when you take a more extreme approach, it is also more likely that you will fail. Lol.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mercer wrote:
We both know I am talking about a FMC as that's what this conversation is about .

Indeed, a big flying thing which is hanging back isn't much of an issue, though I am sticking to my guns and saying you flown it straight into the hornet's nest. Each one to their own like.

Over all how did you find the Daemons?

I cannot say I am surprised a Bloodthirster beating a Hive Tyrant in combat nor as I am surprised of a Tervigon beating a Soul Grinder in combat.

So my question to you then would be this....how would you play your FMC's against such a tyranid list as my own?

I'm really liking the daemons because they suit my style of play, which is Fast and Furious and Fun. I think they are competitive, though I won't be making any claims that they will be winning a lot of the bigger tournaments. But I feel that on any given day, they can kick the crap out of any opponent, even the ones people would consider a bad matchup. Heck, you get the right gifts, the right psychic powers and a couple of favorable Warpstorm rolls and daemons can be perhaps the strongest army you've ever went up against! Or they could just fold like paper with the wrong gifts, the wrong psychic powers and a couple of bad rolls on the Warpstorm table.

BT can definite beat a HT in combat. However, a wounded BT with just 1W remaining against a healthy T8 Iron Armed flyrant? Heck, the overwatch alone could have done him in.

As for the tervigon-grinder battle, that combat actually favors the grinder. They tervigon already took 2W from earlier and will be attacking with only 2 smash attacks. The grinder would be attacking with 4 S10 hits and has a 5++ save, with re-rollable 1's. Odds are in favor of the grinder.

 jy2 wrote:

 ace101 wrote:
Saw this batrep develop, nice work.. until the game length killed you. Turn 6 was brutal for the daemons, and the tervigons spamming screens was a big factor into not eliminating them. If you have had more shooting, maybe you could whittle down those gaunts more. Also, were some of the gaunts out of synapse range, especially the ones that tarpitted the soul grinder on t5-6? since they lost combat twice they would have had to take ld. I could be wrong, but the pictures had it look like the gaunts were out of synapse.

Maybe next time stock up on flamers, gaunts are t3 after all, so they may fail some toughness tests, and they can provide some devastating overwatch hits.

Yeah, daemons were winning at the end of T5....if only the game had ended!

I believe at one point, the gants were out of synapse but they passed their morale test. Then next turn, the tervigon 'vemoved up and it was all kosher again. As a tyranid player, I always try to ensure that assaulting gribblies are within range of synapse, usually by trailing some gants behind.

The lone biovore was also out of synapse but made 2 Instinctive Behavior tests. But in my reports, I usually don't mention this unless it affects the game. If I don't indicate that a unit has failed some type of LD test - whether it be morale, psychic, 3D6 spirit leech, or whatever - you can assume that either 1) they didn't have to take it or 2) they made it.

While you can still use flamers, I've pretty much written them off in favor of faster assault threats. If they still had Warpfire like they did last edition, I would consider them but with only the template weapon, they are a long-shot to make my army.

I am not familiar with warpfire, all i know is that warpflame makes a unit take a toughness test or suffer d3 extra wounds w/ no armor/cover saves allowed, but passing improves FNP. Whats the difference, because if the Portalglyph had stayed for a turn or two, some flamers near the objective would have seriously messed up any gaunt horde, which would have help out those daemons. Maybe something to consider: maybe a balance of shooting and assault units in that daemon list would better balance the list, furthering your desire to make a TAC list, since CC armies are not as powerful in 6th edition as shooting or TAC armies.

 jy2 wrote:

 SabrX wrote:

So my question to you then would be this....how would you play your FMC's against such a tyranid list as my own?

I'm really liking the daemons because they suit my style of play, which is Fast and Furious and Fun. I think they are competitive, though I won't be making any claims that they will be winning a lot of the bigger tournaments. But I feel that on any given day, they can kick the crap out of any opponent, even the ones people would consider a bad matchup. Heck, you get the right gifts, the right psychic powers and a couple of favorable Warpstorm rolls and daemons can be perhaps the strongest army you've ever went up against! Or they could just fold like paper with the wrong gifts, the wrong psychic powers and a couple of bad rolls on the Warpstorm table.

BT can definite beat a HT in combat. However, a wounded BT with just 1W remaining against a healthy T8 Iron Armed flyrant? Heck, the overwatch alone could have done him in.

As for the tervigon-grinder battle, that combat actually favors the grinder. They tervigon already took 2W from earlier and will be attacking with only 2 smash attacks. The grinder would be attacking with 4 S10 hits and has a 5++ save, with re-rollable 1's. Odds are in favor of the grinder.

In your game I would have considered moving all three big monsters down the right flank (towards Tyrants) as they are bigger threats with them evil guns and vector striked the warlord-Tyrant. Depending on distance of course, but I think the Tyrant managed to hit some Bloodletters first turn or was that a Biovore? With the triple vector strike the warlord probably would have gone down first turn. Of course this is based off images. Or I would have moved the Prince down the flank you did with support from the 'Thirsters, though I wouldn't have landed the Prince so close to the horde and would have done a spot of cheeky premeasuring

I've only play tested Daemons once. They certainly are a random army and if the dice are on fire then they could be good, but that could be said about any army. Have you used Pink Horrors btw?

Hmmm, overwatch, the Tyrant should hit with 4 on average, then wound with 2 and the 'Thirster fail one, so yeah I guess law of average says that sucker should have gone down to flying maggot attack.

The odds are slightly better for the Tervigon as unlike the Soul Grinder it cannot be totalled in a single turn. If the Grinder gets hit with a weapon destroyed result then it is screwed. Crushing claws ftw .

 ace101 wrote:
I am not familiar with warpfire, all i know is that warpflame makes a unit take a toughness test or suffer d3 extra wounds w/ no armor/cover saves allowed, but passing improves FNP. Whats the difference,

Warpfire was a shooting attack from the previous codex. 18" Range, S:4, AP:4, Assault 3. It came by default on Pink Horrors, Flamers and a few characters.

Warpfire meant that if you didn't land close enough to a unit to flame them with Breath of Chaos, you could still shoot (depending on the size of the Flamer unit) 9-27 S:4 AP:4 shots. Or you use the template attack with the three or four models that were able to, and shoot Warpfire with the rest for a few more wounds.

Now that Flamers only have the template attack, they're less flexible.