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 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
(And are also tougher, stronger, and more skilled at close combat than marines are)

Prove these statements.


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 DOGGED wrote:
You're right. Orks are born BOTH tougher and stronger than space marines, who are born just common humans. SMs get extreme genetic and biological engineering to make them the aberrations they get to be when fully built. Orks on the other side grow naturally stronger. The mistake is to compare SMs with Orks when the equivalent should be skarboyz or nobz, who are naturally evolved through fighting and evolution.

Yeah your attempts at misdirection have no sway over me.

It was said that they were born as tough as a Space Marine, aka the transhuman and not the mortal that might become one, and better at h2h.

Both statements have no basis to them.

Are you even remotely trying to be serious on this? Really?

Attempts at misdirection? Trying to have sway on you? Are you really meaning it? Don't get confused, I (and I guess a good lot of people) have absolutely no intention on having any sway over you. For my concern, you can freely go anywhere, think about anything and say what you want. I quite frankly could not care less about that. Neither I have any intention to even start looking for any citation, obscure or not, to support what is widely known as basic background information relating orks and the humans who are extensively modified to be space marines. I can't really believe you are even asking for it. Is there by chance any kind of study degree on 40k canon fluff anyway? Certainly all seriousness regarding 40k is to be debated with a healthy measure of informality (to say the least). It is a game after all. The moment someone gets zealous about it is the moment when someone becomes annoying instead of amusing.

Besides, an ork is naturally tougher and stronger than a human; it also makes him tougher and stronger than a space marine without all the armor and artificial augmentations, as he would still be a space marine. That there may be exceptions to this rule does not invalidate but just confirm it. Stop demanding quoting and just enjoy the talk; don't be the party spoiler. Finally, what WarlordRob117 said and Willhman supported, I support too. Melissia nailed it too, as Ascalam quite cheeringly remarked.
EDIT: And what Illuknisaa posted. A 10 years old space marine? Sooo... Where?

I've always assumed Void_Dragon was posting in character. For further details, check out the thread on the Did an Ork choke the Emperor!?

But now I think he's just anti ork, and that makes me a sad Grot. :-(

Maybe he's just bored. He should read some ork fluff. Or stop taking himself seriously. It is healthy.

If you think Orks are "silly" try telling that to the inhabitants of the world they attack, I suspect they are pretty horrific. A massive muscle bound monster coated in blood roaring crazily holding a massive rusty buzz saw and a flamer, doesn't sound silly to me...

YUU 'UMMIES BE SESSY! UR BOSS BE DEAD UND ON A THRUUN AND NOT OUT FIGHTING!

*cough*

To keep things more on track, We are talking about warhammer 40k here Prks to silly? B*** please let us go back to the 80's and see the other ¨¨Laughable races they came up with¨ (not to mention art/models)

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
except that you are ignoring that Snikrot and Zagstruck (even though they claim boss status) are nobz for all intents and purposes.

Based on what? The tabletop stats? Stats mean nothing to me.

To that end, here we have examples of two Nobz, one of which has countless IG dog-tags wrapped around his arms for trophies, and the other being a stormboy who has brought more pain alone to a majority of space marine armies, due to his free-booterz status, than any warboss.

They aren't nobs, they are bosses, lol. At least, Zagstruk is, I dunno if Snikrot technically is one.

Snikrot has never even been mentioned as ever fighting Space Marines, to my recollection.

The only time Zagstruk is mentioned in the same breath as Space Marines is when a Dreadnought rips his leg off.

Neither indicate they are physically stronger than Marines.

Its hard to classify Grotsnik and Badrukk as they dont have a solid leadership basis, but the point is, there are several stories out there of Nobz doing just as much damage, if not more due to how numerous they are, to space marines (captain to scout) as warbosses.

Like?

The thing alot of those who are rallying against orks dont realize is orks cant be stopped. Once an ork has set his mind on something, rediculous things start to happen... using rationale to explain an irrational character has no relevance. Orks are the most destructive and constructive, the most resilient and attrition-tested, intelligent yet dumbest race in 40K existence...

And here we get the hyperbole that is the bread and butter of the Ork fans.

If they can't be stopped, why does Armageddon still stand?

these things alone prove a lack of silliness and a well-balanced, well-beloved race, that has just as much pull and noteriety as space marines.

Oh Orks aren't too silly for 40k. I've never argued that. They're actually one of my favorite factions.


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 washout77 wrote:
Please, I would actually like to see that. Im legit curious

Anyway...Orks are born for war. It's the only thing they can do right. They spend their entire, pretty short in most cases, life-time fighting. And when they aren't fighting, they are fighting each other. Orks can easily best your average Tactical Marine in a brawl, seeing as an Ork might be slower but for every Space Marine you have 5 Orks. Anyone remember back when Ork Choppas could pierce Power Armor on the TT?

Mind you, a proper equivalent for a Space Marine is a Nob. Ork Boyz are new Orks, and are better equivalents to Scout Marines or the like.

All we are seeing at the moment is an intense Space Marine superiority complex trying to show that Space Marines are better than everything else at anything, even if that thing is born and bred ONLY for that one thing.

I haven't seen any of your citations either...

For me to need a citation, I'd have to make a claim. The burden of proof isn't on me.

No one doubts that multiple Orks could best one Marine in close combat reliably.

But one Ork Boy against one Marine? Naw dude. Dude naw.

Anyway, IIRC that story was in the 5e rulebook, will find later.


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 illuknisaa wrote:
It takes about 20 years to make a marine.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine#Selection

Ghazzy was 6 years old when he owned a planet.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ghazghkull_Mag_Uruk_Thraka#.UU9CGlfLu5U

This is ghazzy when he is 8-10 years old
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/9/98/Ghazghkull_vs_Yarrick.jpg

Basic choppas are huge lumps of solid steel while chainsword of the asartes is a toothpick in comparizon.

So tell me, what are you trying to prove with this, other than that Ghazghkuull when he became the mightiest Warlord in the galaxy was younger than any Marine?

Ghazghkuull when he became a cool dude and became the size of a Dreadnought was not a Boy. In fact, he had his ass kicked in battle by Space Marines as a Boy.


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 DOGGED wrote:
Are you even remotely trying to be serious on this? Really?

I am always serious.

Attempts at misdirection? Trying to have sway on you? Are you really meaning it?

You just asked me that question.

Don't get confused, I (and I guess a good lot of people) have absolutely no intention on having any sway over you. For my concern, you can freely go anywhere, think about anything and say what you want. I quite frankly could not care less about that.

Then why did you make a red-herring?

Neither I have any intention to even start looking for any citation, obscure or not, to support what is widely known as basic background information relating orks and the humans who are extensively modified to be space marines. I can't really believe you are even asking for it. Is there by chance any kind of study degree on 40k canon fluff anyway? Certainly all seriousness regarding 40k is to be debated with a healthy measure of informality (to say the least). It is a game after all. The moment someone gets zealous about it is the moment when someone becomes annoying instead of amusing.

I'm not being zealous, I'm asking people to justify their claims with background material. Why do people here always get defensive when I want them to do so?

Besides, an ork is naturally tougher and stronger than a human; it also makes him tougher and stronger than a space marine without all the armor and artificial augmentations, as he would still be a space marine. That there may be exceptions to this rule does not invalidate but just confirm it. Stop demanding quoting and just enjoy the talk; don't be the party spoiler. Finally, what WarlordRob117 said and Willhman supported, I support too. Melissia nailed it too, as Ascalam quite cheeringly remarked.
EDIT: And what Illuknisaa posted. A 10 years old space marine? Sooo... Where?

So what you are saying is that Orks are stronger than a Space Marine, once you take away all of the qualities that make them Space Marines, while also relegating them to the status of ten year old boy? Gee, who'd of thunk it, lol.

No but really. Address the actual topic at hand. Are Ork Boys physically stronger than the transhuman Space Marines, not the human children they once were? Y/N, and if the former, please do me the courtesy of providing citations supporting that fact.

Hey, I'll even do your side an honor: I've recalled fluff that states that Ork Nobs are actually a little stronger than Marines. Fulgrim has a Marine character state as much. There, I've done some work for you.


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 kronk wrote:
I've always assumed Void_Dragon was posting in character. For further details, check out the thread on the Did an Ork choke the Emperor!?

But now I think he's just anti ork, and that makes me a sad Grot. :-(

They're one of my favorite factions.

I am anti-unsupported claims.

Why do you think I dislike Orks?

'The only time Zagstruk is mentioned in the same breath as Space Marines is when a Dreadnought rips his leg off.
'

His legs were snipped off by a dread, true,

Same quote also says he chewed through the wiring systems of said dread until he incapacitated it, AFTER losing both legs and presumably a fair bit of blood

Yeah, he's that badass


Edit:

Personally i'd put an Ork Boy as FAR buffer than a human, but not as buff as a PA'd SM. Maybe on par with a SM out of his suit, but more likely just a shade under. Not a lot of fluff out there to back my opinion, and much of it is BL SM -Uber-alles stuff.

An ork Nob is definitely buffer than a SM, but not by a huge margin.

That is pretty manly, and I'll admit that I forgot about that.


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 Ascalam wrote:
Personally i'd put an Ork Boy as FAR buffer than a human, but not as buff as a PA'd SM. Maybe on par with a SM out of his suit, but more likely just a shade under. Not a lot of fluff out there to back my opinion, and much of it is BL SM -Uber-alles stuff.

An ork Nob is definitely buffer than a SM, but not by a huge margin.

Honestly there is so little fluff on the strength of a Space Marine without power armour it is hard to say. When are they not in their armour, lol?

True enough.

I need to model an ork with a giant tin-opener

I think there is the odd bit of fluff with a scout (not full PA) or unarmoured Sm, but usually when they are out of their armour it's hot SM on SM action, not Xenos

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 DOGGED wrote:
Are you even remotely trying to be serious on this? Really?

I am always serious.

Attempts at misdirection? Trying to have sway on you? Are you really meaning it?

You just asked me that question.

Don't get confused, I (and I guess a good lot of people) have absolutely no intention on having any sway over you. For my concern, you can freely go anywhere, think about anything and say what you want. I quite frankly could not care less about that.

Then why did you make a red-herring?

Neither I have any intention to even start looking for any citation, obscure or not, to support what is widely known as basic background information relating orks and the humans who are extensively modified to be space marines. I can't really believe you are even asking for it. Is there by chance any kind of study degree on 40k canon fluff anyway? Certainly all seriousness regarding 40k is to be debated with a healthy measure of informality (to say the least). It is a game after all. The moment someone gets zealous about it is the moment when someone becomes annoying instead of amusing.

I'm not being zealous, I'm asking people to justify their claims with background material. Why do people here always get defensive when I want them to do so?

Besides, an ork is naturally tougher and stronger than a human; it also makes him tougher and stronger than a space marine without all the armor and artificial augmentations, as he would still be a space marine. That there may be exceptions to this rule does not invalidate but just confirm it. Stop demanding quoting and just enjoy the talk; don't be the party spoiler. Finally, what WarlordRob117 said and Willhman supported, I support too. Melissia nailed it too, as Ascalam quite cheeringly remarked.
EDIT: And what Illuknisaa posted. A 10 years old space marine? Sooo... Where?

So what you are saying is that Orks are stronger than a Space Marine, once you take away all of the qualities that make them Space Marines, while also relegating them to the status of ten year old boy? Gee, who'd of thunk it, lol.

No but really. Address the actual topic at hand. Are Ork Boys physically stronger than the transhuman Space Marines, not the human children they once were? Y/N, and if the former, please do me the courtesy of providing citations supporting that fact.

Hey, I'll even do your side an honor: I've recalled fluff that states that Ork Nobs are actually a little stronger than Marines. Fulgrim has a Marine character state as much. There, I've done some work for you.


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 kronk wrote:
I've always assumed Void_Dragon was posting in character. For further details, check out the thread on the Did an Ork choke the Emperor!?

But now I think he's just anti ork, and that makes me a sad Grot. :-(

They're one of my favorite factions.

I am anti-unsupported claims.

Why do you think I dislike Orks?

First: No you're not always serious. But you do like pestering and behaving in a mostly pedantic way. Maybe that's just your sense of humour. As long as you do not insult it's ok for me, if annoying. You'll finally run out of people to talk with by boring 'em but hey, that's not hurting anyone. And you get to bring some interesting points.

Second: If you mean I made that question when I wrote it, it is obvious. If you mean that I was trying to sway you, my dear, you are vastly overestimating yourself. I clearly stated I have no intention to do so, and I (again) could not care less about such a thing. But this is a forum. As you have your right to express yerself, I do same. My opinion is just that; I quite frankly don't need your approval nor I am claiming for it. You seem to confuse about people expressing their opinions and interpretations on fantasy writing and such fantasy writing being susceptible to be used as proof. You know, you are not talking about a tome on physics but a fantasy game in space.

Third: Stop making up red herrings by saying people make red herrings.

Fourth: Do not demand people to make any justification. Gork, let people enjoy! It is not that people get on the defensive with you, it is you who puts people on the defensive. Stop being aggressive and pedantic and people will start talking. Keep your overbearing attittude and being a fluff nazi and people will keep defending themselves. You seem to have a serious problem with your conversational competence, at least regarding this matter. Maybe it is caused by asinchrony and virtuality being characteristic of internet and forum conversation, but you should make an effort to actually talk. Unless you are trying to compensate for something, but then you should look for a solution in other place.

Fifth: SM are not transhuman, they are just modified humans. They lack all and every social and mental condition to even be considered as an early transhuman. So do not make red herrings and let's consider them what they are: humans (even if modified ones, they are just humans, even they are a stagnant kind of humans); you can put half a dozen lungs on 'em if you want, but it does not make them evolved. It just makes them having to tailor their clothing. So the statement keeps true in its 40k context. Orks are stronger and tougher than humans ergo are stronger and tougher than SM. So an ork with SM augmentations, training and resources would be stronger and tougher than a human SM one. Mork, it could even be smarter, or not. But their very physical nature is far superior to the human one. Don't even dare to ask for proof. I would not pester Phil Kelly demanding such. Go ask him to write a piece negating it if it makes you happier. 'Til that, howl at the moon if ya want.

Last: glad to see you don't hate orks at least. With friends like these... And don't think I am in any way trying to mistreat or downplay, belittle or depreciate you in any sense. In fact I've made an effort (not an English native here) to talk with you. But it escapes me why do you constantly try to spoil conversations that should be funny and/or constructive without a hint of joking or helping. Such negativeness...

Orks are the Old Ones' equivalent of Space Marines anyway, the main difference being that we don't know anything about the physicality of their predecessor race, the Krork (unlike humans, who we know too much about).

A Marine is much bigger and stronger than a human. Compare a body builder to a skinny nerd (the sort who are popular as hackers in movies, not a neckbeard!). Then think of the body builder as the nerd and the Marine is bulkier than him by about that much.

Orks in the artwork are usually shown to be about the same size as Marines, especially if the art is focussed on Guardsmen.

I like orks but they don't scream 40k for me, I would never collect them but other than that I don't have any particular problem with them that I really want to think about too much, just a game after all.

@Void_Dragon,


i believe Armageddon still stands because Ghazkull left the place in pursuit of a real battle Though Armageddon will soon be a Ork planet,.. The imperium is stretched to its limits,..barely able to supply all warfronts across their terretory,... Yet more and more orks are feeling the call of Armageddon.. And Armageddon has been smacked to gak once before,.. Armageddon only stands because Ghazkull allowed it because he wanted to fight Yarrick again (stated in Ork Codex and random bits of fluff about Armageddon, believe 5th and 6th rulebook as well)

Still, to be back on topic,.. i believe it was either in the SM/Ork codex or 5th rulebook, but one of the most senior librarians said something like ,.. if the orks were ever to truly unite all we know would turn to dust... If a senior librarian takes them seriously,.. why the hell shouldnt we?

Orks are powerful, very powerful more than a match for one human. But in sources to numerous to mention space marines are mentioned the equal of almost 10 orks. The game doesn't represent this.

On another note in a standard bearer in a white dwarf Gervis says that it would be boring to have only a few extremely powerful space marines. I think it would be cooler to have 10 space marines facing about 200 orks and the match being even. Not sure how many people agree but it would be cool.

BaconUprising wrote:
Orks are powerful, very powerful more than a match for one human. But in sources to numerous to mention space marines are mentioned the equal of almost 10 orks. The game doesn't represent this.

On another note in a standard bearer in a white dwarf Gervis says that it would be boring to have only a few extremely powerful space marines. I think it would be cooler to have 10 space marines facing about 200 orks and the match being even. Not sure how many people agree but it would be cool.

That would be fun - and keeping in with the fluff.

Well if you really want to examine fluff it states in the codex that orks are human height when hunched over. guess what else is roughly human height when hunched over? A gorilla. Gorillas are the most analogous creature to an ork as far as I can see. So is a gorilla as strong as Space Marine? I think the only advantage Space Marines have over the orks is power armor, without which the SM would quickly be reduced to paste. However SM do have power armor so that one space marine will always be more hardy and combat worthy than one ork. That being said imagine if orks made power armor . They would own the galaxy in a millennium, get bored, and moan about the golden days when there were all them pink ummies to smash.

As a race, humanities greatest advantage is coordination which is what allows for the creation of the warrior cultures and the technology that have allowed the Empire to maintain control over such a large portion of galactic real estate. If orks had that level of cooperation all foot troops would be in mega armor and we could call it a day.

BaconUprising wrote:
Orks are powerful, very powerful more than a match for one human. But in sources to numerous to mention space marines are mentioned the equal of almost 10 orks. The game doesn't represent this.

On another note in a standard bearer in a white dwarf Gervis says that it would be boring to have only a few extremely powerful space marines. I think it would be cooler to have 10 space marines facing about 200 orks and the match being even. Not sure how many people agree but it would be cool.

I would love that,... though since i play orks,.. it would be devastating to my salary Not to mention transport difficultys

BaconUprising wrote:
Orks are powerful, very powerful more than a match for one human. But in sources to numerous to mention space marines are mentioned the equal of almost 10 orks. The game doesn't represent this.

On another note in a standard bearer in a white dwarf Gervis says that it would be boring to have only a few extremely powerful space marines. I think it would be cooler to have 10 space marines facing about 200 orks and the match being even. Not sure how many people agree but it would be cool.

Space marines killing ork boys in fluff ten to one has never been in question, what we are debating is if an ork nob is a equivalent to a space marine. Which I have to say that they are indeed.

I wish they kept the fluff and the game more closely put togther.

You may be debating that but I am responding to the threads question and putting across my own question. Not that...

BaconUprising wrote:
You may be debating that but I am responding to the threads question and putting across my own question. Not that...

Oh, my bad

a nob may is likely at least the equal of a space marine in strenght ect,

a warboss, for sure is the superior to a normal SM

there are likely 1000 warbosses for every singe SM in the galaxy,

each warboss can easily be replaced since all nobs have the capacity to turn into warbosses through experience, ambition, generally orkyness ect.

each space marine needs years to make each gene seed, then years to implant the seed and organs

thats why da orks will winz!

That's not saying much. I mean, Marines are really rare. Freakishly rare. So much so that it becomes obvious that most Marine writers have no sense of scale at all.

easysauce wrote:
a nob may is likely at least the equal of a space marine in strenght ect,

a warboss, for sure is the superior to a normal SM

there are likely 1000 warbosses for every singe SM in the galaxy,

each warboss can easily be replaced since all nobs have the capacity to turn into warbosses through experience, ambition, generally orkyness ect.

each space marine needs years to make each gene seed, then years to implant the seed and organs

thats why the SM are supported by the IG

FTFY

 Bobthehero wrote:

easysauce wrote:
a nob may is likely at least the equal of a space marine in strenght ect,

a warboss, for sure is the superior to a normal SM

there are likely 1000 warbosses for every singe SM in the galaxy,

each warboss can easily be replaced since all nobs have the capacity to turn into warbosses through experience, ambition, generally orkyness ect.

each space marine needs years to make each gene seed, then years to implant the seed and organs

thats why the SM are irrelevant compared to the IG

FTFY

FTFFY

How did this turn into orks Vs. marines?

As mentioned earlier, orks are not as silly as once portrayed, and I for one think it's a good thing. They've struck the right balance between lunatic barbarity and random brutality, if there is such a thing.

 amanita wrote:
How did this turn into orks Vs. marines?

Cuz da boyz don't want to sit around talkin all day! Gotta start a fight!

Sure, in a world of 10 foot tall dudes in giant suits or armor shooting guns that fire small rockets, who worship an all powerful zombie on a chair, some green dudes are too silly? Orks are such an important part of 40k and the fandom (orkmotions anyone) that they just can"t be taken out. Sure, they are the comedy relief, but too silly for sci fi? I think not

Orkz are too silly? That is like saying a bunch of Reavers from Firefly/Serenity are too silly.

The only difference between the two is that one side is green and has a funny accent.

And dresses better

Both recognise that Red Wunz go fasta though

Orks are grimdark enough for 40k. They find murder and violence hilarious and we, as an audience, are so jaded to it that we think it's "silly".