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off topic:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

easysauce wrote:
they are born as tough as SM's, and better at HTH

No they're not.

You're right. Orks are born BOTH tougher and stronger than space marines, who are born just common humans. SMs get extreme genetic and biological engineering to make them the aberrations they get to be when fully built. Orks on the other side grow naturally stronger. The mistake is to compare SMs with Orks when the equivalent should be skarboyz or nobz, who are naturally evolved through fighting and evolution.

(And are also tougher, stronger, and more skilled at close combat than marines are)

And now is the time for you to wake up...

Tau > Orks

By a large margin

 Bobthehero wrote:
Tau > Orks

By a large margin

The Tau can only BARELY hold off a single Ork WAAAGH.

Just barely. And they lost a lot of territory before they managed that feat.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
And dont forget "dancing, psychic,murderous,elf clowns..from outer space"

This is about silly, not terrifying... also that description could be summed up with just "clowns".

 Melissia wrote:
(And are also tougher, stronger, and more skilled at close combat than marines are)

Prove these statements.


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 DOGGED wrote:
You're right. Orks are born BOTH tougher and stronger than space marines, who are born just common humans. SMs get extreme genetic and biological engineering to make them the aberrations they get to be when fully built. Orks on the other side grow naturally stronger. The mistake is to compare SMs with Orks when the equivalent should be skarboyz or nobz, who are naturally evolved through fighting and evolution.

Yeah your attempts at misdirection have no sway over me.

It was said that they were born as tough as a Space Marine, aka the transhuman and not the mortal that might become one, and better at h2h.

Both statements have no basis to them.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
(And are also tougher, stronger, and more skilled at close combat than marines are)

Prove these statements.

Sorry Melissia, you're wrong there, the only thing that Orks have on marines is initiative. There's even a direct comparison between Boyz and Marines in the 6th ed.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Prove these statements.

Orks, by default, are as tough as Space Marines outside of power armor, with multiple redundant organs of every kind, and capable of surviving wounds that even Marines can't (such as decapitation). With an adrenaline rush, they're just as strong as a Marine, as well, and they are instinctively skilled in close combat, and participate in such brawls and melees all their lives.

And that's the common boy. I wasn't referring to a mere slugga boy fresh out of his yoof, I was referring to a Nob.

Because of the way Orks develop over time and combat experience, a Nob has literally grown in size, strength, and durability until they can can take wounds that would send any but the toughest Space Marines out of action and keep fighting, and are least as strong as marines without an adrenaline rush (and far, FAR stronger with one, if they're not actually stronger without the need for such). Similarly, and have decades if not centuries of non-stop warfare exceeding even that which an Astartes would experience in the same time period (Orks don't even understand the concept of peace to begin with), leading them to have combat experience equal to that of an Astartes. That combined with their instinctual understanding of combat that gives them an edge over the average Astartes. And all of this despite the fact that I'm including the bonus from powered armor here. For bonus points, these are also represented quite well in the tabletop as well as the lore.

I'm not seeing any citations.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I'm not seeing any citations.

Every single one of the Ork codices (such as from the 2008 codex, where it routinely and repeatedly emphasizes how tough Orks are, to the point of them surviving decapitation as long as their head is put back on their body (or a different Ork's body for that matter), but especially goes in to detail about how hard they are to fething kill in page four), and also mentioned and included in BL books such as Caves of Ice (Cain describes the Orks having impressive combat instincts similar to veteran soldiers, for example, and numerous times they have to go through overkill to try to make sure an Ork is really dead, or describe how an Ork keeps attacking even when any other creature would have been killed by then, as well as describing their immense brutish strength).

It's not exactly hidden knowledge or anything, it's a part of every single goddamned book on Orks.

And, again, the stats support this (using fifth edition stats here, since that's what I'm most familiar with). Marines and Orks have the same toughness score-- except Ork Nobz have twice as many wounds. Orks gain equal strength score on the charge as Marines, and Nobz have equal strength without it but gain an advantage in strength on the charge. And all three units have the same WS score, except Boyz and Nobz are far more capable of landing multiple blows in the same time period than Marines are even when given a similar loadout.

One of few the places where stats definitely reflect the lore, really.

I'm not really disputing Ork endurance.

Mostly their physical strength and fighting skill.

Prove those.

From the propensity of Flash Gitz in most armies, I think it would have to be Bad Moons, lol. But I don't think they've had a poster-boy army since Andy with the Dredz left the company.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I'm not really disputing Ork endurance.

Mostly their physical strength and fighting skill.

Prove those.

I already did.

No you haven't.

You have tabletop backing your argument. That is it.

A Warboss we can say is stronger and more skilled than most Marines, we have seen fluff to prove it.

A Nob? I've seen none.

Look at the stats maybe? Fluff wise, marines cant survive decapitation. Also, there is a common picture of an ork charging still with multiple shots in its chest cavity, and it wasn't even a nob.

The entire setting is silly and cannot be taken seriously.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
No you haven't.

Except where I did.

What's the argument here? Orks are incredibly tough creatures, and described that way in the fluff... the fluff also describes very small numbers of space marines consistently beating back orks. Their power armor gives them more strength or about equal strength to an ork boy (depending on where you read it)... but warbosses are certainly huge and badass compared to a single space marine.

Space Marines have the Emperor, that's why they rule.

You can't use statlines from the game to compare to fluff, there are very many discrepancies... game stats are doctored so that you have a balanced game.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
having actually read more of the thread.... yes Orks are scary, if you are a Imperial Citizen 40,000 years in the future. If you are looking at their models on the tabletop, and reading their codex, it's pretty clear there's plenty of humor, more than any other race.

 Melissia wrote:
Orks, by default, are as tough as Space Marines outside of power armor

@Void, please tell me where it says that a space marine, kills an ork, outside of power armour, and with nothing but a close combat weapon, with the ork in perfect condition? That means no wounds to speak of, and the space marine can't use the environment to his advantage, this is a straight up brawl we are talking about here. As Melissia stated, she means a space marine without power armour on. This is rarely seen, and when it is, the space marine almost always has a type of ranged weapon with them.

I could show you a guardsman killing an Ork Boy by slamming the butt of his lasgun against his skull.

Would that suffice?

There was an instance of Ork Kommandos overrunning and chopping Marines up with nothing but axes in one short story from White Dwarf. The Orks identified the weak points - knees, elbows, neck - and chopped them up, neat as neat. So that was Orks killing Marines in power armour. Yellow armour.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I could show you a guardsman killing an Ork Boy by slamming the butt of his lasgun against his skull.

Would that suffice?

Please, I would actually like to see that. Im legit curious

Anyway...Orks are born for war. It's the only thing they can do right. They spend their entire, pretty short in most cases, life-time fighting. And when they aren't fighting, they are fighting each other. Orks can easily best your average Tactical Marine in a brawl, seeing as an Ork might be slower but for every Space Marine you have 5 Orks. Anyone remember back when Ork Choppas could pierce Power Armor on the TT?

Mind you, a proper equivalent for a Space Marine is a Nob. Ork Boyz are new Orks, and are better equivalents to Scout Marines or the like.

All we are seeing at the moment is an intense Space Marine superiority complex trying to show that Space Marines are better than everything else at anything, even if that thing is born and bred ONLY for that one thing.

I haven't seen any of your citations either...

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I could show you a guardsman killing an Ork Boy by slamming the butt of his lasgun against his skull.

Would that suffice?

I have a story where a Inquisitor kills a space marine with one puch, no powerfist. The space marine is wearing power armour. This space marine is in perfect shape too. Also no, as you said we need citation of something happening. A gaurdsman hitting an ork boy with a lasgun, isn't the same as a space marine now is it?

Besides, Guardsmen are far more badass than Space Marines anyway. Far bigger cajones.

Given that they still have them.... yes

 Melissia wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Tau > Orks

By a large margin

The Tau can only BARELY hold off a single Ork WAAAGH.

Just barely. And they lost a lot of territory before they managed that feat.

Not in power level, sure, I meant this a ''I like Tau far, far, far, far, far,far more than I like the Orks''

 Void__Dragon wrote:

A Nob? I've seen none.

except that you are ignoring that Snikrot and Zagstruck (even though they claim boss status) are nobz for all intents and purposes.
To that end, here we have examples of two Nobz, one of which has countless IG dog-tags wrapped around his arms for trophies, and the other being a stormboy who has brought more pain alone to a majority of space marine armies, due to his free-booterz status, than any warboss.

Its hard to classify Grotsnik and Badrukk as they dont have a solid leadership basis, but the point is, there are several stories out there of Nobz doing just as much damage, if not more due to how numerous they are, to space marines (captain to scout) as warbosses.

The thing alot of those who are rallying against orks dont realize is orks cant be stopped. Once an ork has set his mind on something, rediculous things start to happen... using rationale to explain an irrational character has no relevance. Orks are the most destructive and constructive, the most resilient and attrition-tested, intelligent yet dumbest race in 40K existence...

these things alone prove a lack of silliness and a well-balanced, well-beloved race, that has just as much pull and noteriety as space marines.

 WarlordRob117 wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

A Nob? I've seen none.

except that you are ignoring that Snikrot and Zagstruck (even though they claim boss status) are nobz for all intents and purposes.
To that end, here we have examples of two Nobz, one of which has countless IG dog-tags wrapped around his arms for trophies, and the other being a stormboy who has brought more pain alone to a majority of space marine armies, due to his free-booterz status, than any warboss.

Its hard to classify Grotsnik and Badrukk as they dont have a solid leadership basis, but the point is, there are several stories out there of Nobz doing just as much damage, if not more due to how numerous they are, to space marines (captain to scout) as warbosses.

The thing alot of those who are rallying against orks dont realize is orks cant be stopped. Once an ork has set his mind on something, rediculous things start to happen... using rationale to explain an irrational character has no relevance. Orks are the most destructive and constructive, the most resilient and attrition-tested, intelligent yet dumbest race in 40K existence...

these things alone prove a lack of silliness and a well-balanced, well-beloved race, that has just as much pull and noteriety as space marines.

Pretty much this

 Bobthehero wrote:
Tau > Orks

By a large margin

War of Dakka

/tau


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I'm not really disputing Ork endurance.

Mostly their physical strength and fighting skill.

Prove those.

It takes about 20 years to make a marine.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine#Selection

Ghazzy was 6 years old when he owned a planet.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ghazghkull_Mag_Uruk_Thraka#.UU9CGlfLu5U

This is ghazzy when he is 8-10 years old
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/9/98/Ghazghkull_vs_Yarrick.jpg

Basic choppas are huge lumps of solid steel while chainsword of the asartes is a toothpick in comparizon.