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http://www.sturmkrieg.us/Datasheet:Kronstadt_Pattern_Predator#.UUnRLlvwIbo
http://www.sturmkrieg.us/Datasheet:Aleksandra_Pattern_Leman_Russ#.UUnSDVvwIbo

The Predator variant is intended to give Space Marines a tank with a more destructive gun at long range in a turret. The closest thing, the Vindicator, only has a short range gun, and it is not mounted in a turret.

The Leman Russ variant is designed to replace the Vanquisher, which is terrible for most practical purposes, and serve as an intermediate variation between the Demolisher and the Battle Cannon.

My thoughts:

Leman Russ
- Why the option to upgrade to fast and/or BS5
-Pintle mount should be a Heavy Stubber or Storm Bolter, NOT a Heavy Bolter especially for just 10 points
-Upgrade cost for the Lascannon is 5 pts lower than all the other LR
- Cost should be a higher as the gun is a large blast with armour bane and AP2


Predator
- 72" is a bit excessive on the range, SM don't really engage in that sort of range band (Only other weapon available to them that does is the Orbital Bombardment)
- Again with the pintle Heavy Bolter
- Free Heavy Bolter should raise the cost a bit (10 points maybe unless the range on main gun is reduced to around 48")

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
My thoughts:

Leman Russ
- Why the option to upgrade to fast and/or BS5
-Pintle mount should be a Heavy Stubber or Storm Bolter, NOT a Heavy Bolter especially for just 10 points
-Upgrade cost for the Lascannon is 5 pts lower than all the other LR
- Cost should be a higher as the gun is a large blast with armour bane and AP2


Predator
- 72" is a bit excessive on the range, SM don't really engage in that sort of range band (Only other weapon available to them that does is the Orbital Bombardment)
- Again with the pintle Heavy Bolter
- Free Heavy Bolter should raise the cost a bit (10 points maybe unless the range on main gun is reduced to around 48")

The fast option is for fast moving armies and for a wheeled conversion that I came up with. It makes use of the Leman Russ accessory sprew that GW sells for $12 that includes everything but the hatch and the sides. It looks like a WWII armored car, which is a pretty fluffy design. BS 5 for the main gun is an upgrade for people who are alright with better accuracy at the cost of making the unit considerably more expensive.

I can change the heavy bolter cost to 15 points and the lascannon cost to 20 points.

165 points is the same cost as the Demolisher, but this variant has significantly lower strength that will negatively affect it against large monstrous creatures, and completely removes the ability to instant death a large number of units

While Space Marines don't usually have long range weapons, this gives them that option, which they are at a strong disadvantage for, especially with the new deployments.

I might end up removing the coaxial heavy bolter on it, since it's experimental. I might wait a few games to see how it works.

On the topic of the pred (I don't play guard, so will refrain commenting on the russ)

I think AP2 on the battlecannon is excessive. The stock one listed in the main rulebook is AP3, and should be fine.

I'm torn on the sponson costs. You are using the DA prices for a C:SM tank. But then, with the main gun being ordinance, I can see paying less for them.

SM tanks use stormbolters on pintle mounts. Unless you are re-doing the whole codex, I'd keep it that way. They may be overpriced, but it's consistent with the rest of the book. On the consistency side, can it take extra armor or HKs? Does it come with smoke launchers and a searchlight?

My guess is that it's a little underpriced, particularly with a AP2 main gun. If you drop that down to AP3, I think it might be about right, but would need some playtesting.

A battlecannon is AP3. The pred variant is fine with no changes as long as it becomes AP3.

The Russ variant is just better in every way than the standard russ for 15pts more, and almost better than the demolisher in a lot of respects. My vote is no for it. It would have to be small blast to be balanced between the vanilla russ and the demolisher. Even then, I still don't see the point in making this variant, as it'll likely be better than at least one of the variants you think is bad (Vanquisher, Demolisher, Vanilla).

Lumbering Behemoth doesn't exist anymore; Russes are heavy vehicles.

Finally, the names don't work at all. Give them ordinary pattern names that would actually make sense for the rest of the Imperium.

 Blacksails wrote:
A battlecannon is AP3. The pred variant is fine with no changes as long as it becomes AP3.

The Russ variant is just better in every way than the standard russ for 15pts more, and almost better than the demolisher in a lot of respects. My vote is no for it. It would have to be small blast to be balanced between the vanilla russ and the demolisher. Even then, I still don't see the point in making this variant, as it'll likely be better than at least one of the variants you think is bad (Vanquisher, Demolisher, Vanilla).

Lumbering Behemoth doesn't exist anymore; Russes are heavy vehicles.

Finally, the names don't work at all. Give them ordinary pattern names that would actually make sense for the rest of the Imperium.

I'll reduce the rear armor to 10 and bring it up to 170 points. It's also not intended to be a regular battle cannon. I could possibly make the AP 2 and upgrade like the bastion breecher shells. I'll try play testing it to see how it works.

Kronstadt and Aleksandra are both worlds, which follow the regular naming pattern of variations.

What exactly do you mean that Lumbering Behemoth doesn't exist? It's in the codex.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
My thoughts:

Leman Russ
- Why the option to upgrade to fast and/or BS5
-Pintle mount should be a Heavy Stubber or Storm Bolter, NOT a Heavy Bolter especially for just 10 points
-Upgrade cost for the Lascannon is 5 pts lower than all the other LR
- Cost should be a higher as the gun is a large blast with armour bane and AP2


Predator
- 72" is a bit excessive on the range, SM don't really engage in that sort of range band (Only other weapon available to them that does is the Orbital Bombardment)
- Again with the pintle Heavy Bolter
- Free Heavy Bolter should raise the cost a bit (10 points maybe unless the range on main gun is reduced to around 48")

The fast option is for fast moving armies and for a wheeled conversion that I came up with. It makes use of the Leman Russ accessory sprew that GW sells for $12 that includes everything but the hatch and the sides. It looks like a WWII armored car, which is a pretty fluffy design. BS 5 for the main gun is an upgrade for people who are alright with better accuracy at the cost of making the unit considerably more expensive.s.

BS 5 is still a leap from BS 3

The fast option is also completely unfluffy for a Leman Russ, they are the exact opposite

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
A battlecannon is AP3. The pred variant is fine with no changes as long as it becomes AP3.

The Russ variant is just better in every way than the standard russ for 15pts more, and almost better than the demolisher in a lot of respects. My vote is no for it. It would have to be small blast to be balanced between the vanilla russ and the demolisher. Even then, I still don't see the point in making this variant, as it'll likely be better than at least one of the variants you think is bad (Vanquisher, Demolisher, Vanilla).

Lumbering Behemoth doesn't exist anymore; Russes are heavy vehicles.

Finally, the names don't work at all. Give them ordinary pattern names that would actually make sense for the rest of the Imperium.

I'll reduce the rear armor to 10 and bring it up to 170 points. It's also not intended to be a regular battle cannon. I could possibly make the AP 2 and upgrade like the bastion breecher shells. I'll try play testing it to see how it works.

Kronstadt and Aleksandra are both worlds, which follow the regular naming pattern of variations.

What exactly do you mean that Lumbering Behemoth doesn't exist? It's in the codex.

I'll assume it has been FAQ'ed like many things with the introduction of 6th edition

Kronstadt and Aleksandra are also very "Sturmkriegy" which instantly makes their names stand out from pretty much every variant in the Imperium (LR Crusader/Redeemer Land Speeder storm Leman Russ Demolisher All are descriptive not from where they were discovered/invented)

How about no on both accounts as both are very unfluffy and just wrong.

 Ribon Fox wrote:
How about no on both accounts as both are very unfluffy and just wrong.

While I agree with the sentiment, I'll post more justification.

The problem with the Russ variant is that it steps on three other variants. It has the AP of the Demolisher and Vanquisher, with the range of the Vanilla and Vanquisher, with the penetration of the Vanquisher, and the large blast, high strength of the Vanilla and Demolisher. If this variant existed with AV11 and 165pts, there is very little reason to take any of those three options. The only thing that hurts it; being ordnance, also affects two of the other variants as well. Basically, with this tank, the only reason to take the Demo is for dealing with multi-wound T5 models. Certainly useful, but then factor in the range and armour piercing ability and your variant is clearly superior. There's no drawback, no trade-off, no reason why other than to make something better because you want it to. Its not balanced and its not fluff either; there already exist several battle tank variants that shoot large ordnance.

Lumbering behemoth was FAQ'ed out, the Russ is now a heavy vehicle, which hurt all the ordnance variants quite a bit.

The predator variant is more reasonable, but it again feels like you're just trying to make something better than it needs to be. For all intents and purposes, it's a battlecannon, which would make it AP3. There is no reason for it to be AP2 other than to fulfill your desire to make it unquestionably better than the Vindicator or other pred variants. If you want a large blast, anti-tank pred variant, use the Infernus pattern with the Melta cannon option. Its an 18" large blast melta shot.

As for the names, why would they be named specifically after some planets in your sector? Assuming they are variants produced by a forge world under some sort of supervision of the mechanicus, then these variants would also be available to everyone else to a limited degree. Therefore, it logically followed the variants would be given a name similar to every other pattern that exists. Naming them after planets from your sector doesn't endear anyone to your fluff, which I know has received a lot of flak and negative attention. Give them normal names.

At the end of the day, the Russ variant doesn't really add anything original, and the pred variant needs tweaking. However, I also believe the pred doesn't need a battlecannon-esque option, as FW has a few patterns that fill that role, like the Infernus and Executioner patterns.

*EDIT* And that's without pointing out the obvious flaws in the pricing and availability of the options. Pintle heavy bolters (lol, no), BS5 for an IG tank (lolwut), cheaper hull lascannon for no reason, and fast leman russes all add up to be a little (well a lot actually) on the overpowered/silly side of things.

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:


BS 5 is still a leap from BS 3

The fast option is also completely unfluffy for a Leman Russ, they are the exact opposite

Kronstadt and Aleksandra are also very "Sturmkriegy" which instantly makes their names stand out from pretty much every variant in the Imperium (LR Crusader/Redeemer Land Speeder storm Leman Russ Demolisher All are descriptive not from where they were discovered/invented)

I'll drop those options then. Too much stuff in one datasheet.



There's also names like Mars Pattern Rhino or Armageddon Pattern Basilisk that follow the same pattern.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Ribon Fox wrote:
How about no on both accounts as both are very unfluffy and just wrong.

While I agree with the sentiment, I'll post more justification.

The problem with the Russ variant is that it steps on three other variants. It has the AP of the Demolisher and Vanquisher, with the range of the Vanilla and Vanquisher, with the penetration of the Vanquisher, and the large blast, high strength of the Vanilla and Demolisher. If this variant existed with AV11 and 165pts, there is very little reason to take any of those three options. The only thing that hurts it; being ordnance, also affects two of the other variants as well. Basically, with this tank, the only reason to take the Demo is for dealing with multi-wound T5 models. Certainly useful, but then factor in the range and armour piercing ability and your variant is clearly superior. There's no drawback, no trade-off, no reason why other than to make something better because you want it to. Its not balanced and its not fluff either; there already exist several battle tank variants that shoot large ordnance.

Lumbering behemoth was FAQ'ed out, the Russ is now a heavy vehicle, which hurt all the ordnance variants quite a bit.

The predator variant is more reasonable, but it again feels like you're just trying to make something better than it needs to be. For all intents and purposes, it's a battlecannon, which would make it AP3. There is no reason for it to be AP2 other than to fulfill your desire to make it unquestionably better than the Vindicator or other pred variants. If you want a large blast, anti-tank pred variant, use the Infernus pattern with the Melta cannon option. Its an 18" large blast melta shot.

As for the names, why would they be named specifically after some planets in your sector? Assuming they are variants produced by a forge world under some sort of supervision of the mechanicus, then these variants would also be available to everyone else to a limited degree. Therefore, it logically followed the variants would be given a name similar to every other pattern that exists. Naming them after planets from your sector doesn't endear anyone to your fluff, which I know has received a lot of flak and negative attention. Give them normal names.

At the end of the day, the Russ variant doesn't really add anything original, and the pred variant needs tweaking. However, I also believe the pred doesn't need a battlecannon-esque option, as FW has a few patterns that fill that role, like the Infernus and Executioner patterns.

*EDIT* And that's without pointing out the obvious flaws in the pricing and availability of the options. Pintle heavy bolters (lol, no), BS5 for an IG tank (lolwut), cheaper hull lascannon for no reason, and fast leman russes all add up to be a little (well a lot actually) on the overpowered/silly side of things.

I see the problem of having it filling the roles of too many of the Leman Russ variants. I was thinking what they would "actually" do in the fluff, by making it as effective as possible. Combining only two tanks would be better, and having some better downside that would make the original variants still considerable for using. Two separate tanks could be a better solution, which one combining the Vanquisher and the Battle Cannon to make up for the shortcomings of the Vanquisher, and another to be an intermediate between the Demolisher and the Battle Cannon, possibly with S7. It might actually help a lot if I drop the existing gun to S7. I'm also taking out all the other random stuff.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

There's also names like Mars Pattern Rhino or Armageddon Pattern Basilisk that follow the same pattern.

Those are variants on the actual design of the tank and not on the configuration of its weapons. A Deimos pattern Rhino is still just a rhino. A Mars Alpha Leman Russ Demolisher has a demolisher cannon. An Aleksandra pattern Leman Russ tells me nothing about what weapons it has.

Furthermore, there's no need or reason for your sector to have a separate pattern of Leman Russ when the regular one is so widely used and available. Drop the German-Russian name and call it a Leman Russ *Blank*, or Predator *Blank*.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:


I see the problem of having it filling the roles of too many of the Leman Russ variants. I was thinking what they would "actually" do in the fluff, by making it as effective as possible. Combining only two tanks would be better, and having some better downside that would make the original variants still considerable for using. Two separate tanks could be a better solution, which one combining the Vanquisher and the Battle Cannon to make up for the shortcomings of the Vanquisher, and another to be an intermediate between the Demolisher and the Battle Cannon, possibly with S7. It might actually help a lot if I drop the existing gun to S7. I'm also taking out all the other random stuff.

The problem with what you have in mind is already filled. If I wanted S7 shooting on a Russ, I'd take an Executioner or Exterminator. Having a Large blast S7 gun of whatever AP still doesn't do anything new or original.

Honestly, I can't see you coming up with something that is a balance of two configurations without being better than the two its a balance of. The relationship between the Vanilla Russ, Vanquisher and Demolisher are perfectly fine. There is no need or reason to make something that is somewhere in between. Don't forget the Conqueror exists as well, which fires a small blast S8 AP3, but isn't a Heavy vehicle, and the main gun isn't an ordnance weapon. There's your balance.

The only thing a Leman Russ doesn't have is some sort of missile tank. All the other major bases have been covered.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

There's also names like Mars Pattern Rhino or Armageddon Pattern Basilisk that follow the same pattern.

Those are variants on the actual design of the tank and not on the configuration of its weapons. A Deimos pattern Rhino is still just a rhino. A Mars Alpha Leman Russ Demolisher has a demolisher cannon. An Aleksandra pattern Leman Russ tells me nothing about what weapons it has.

Furthermore, there's no need or reason for your sector to have a separate pattern of Leman Russ when the regular one is so widely used and available. Drop the German-Russian name and call it a Leman Russ *Blank*, or Predator *Blank*.

That would be a better naming convention.

I wasn't the one who named the planets though.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:


That would be a better naming convention.

I wasn't the one who named the planets though.

You named your planets.

Point is, just call it a Leman Russ Destructor...or something like that. You get the idea.

A way to balance it out some is to give it a fixed turret and lower frontal armor. For the russ tank I mean. Bump up the points cost and you got yourself a tank hunter. Giving it small blast would work too.

This basically exists as the Thunderer and the Destroyer, the former with a demolisher cannon and the latter with a laser destroyer.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Tanks/DESTROYER-TANK-HUNTER-COMPLETE-KIT.html
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Tanks/THUNDERER-SIEGE-TANK-COMPLETE-KIT__.html

Hmm. Maybe every tactical role for the Leman Russ chassis has been filled already. Unless you want a "in between" sort of tank.

What you could do, then, is have it be like one of those "funnies" tanks from WWII. One option would be a bridge, another would be mine clearance and another would be tanglewire deployment. Just to throw an idea out there.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Hmm. Maybe every tactical role for the Leman Russ chassis has been filled already. Unless you want a "in between" sort of tank.

What you could do, then, is have it be like one of those "funnies" tanks from WWII. One option would be a bridge, another would be mine clearance and another would be tanglewire deployment. Just to throw an idea out there.

Those would be good ideas. For the first point, at least a better version of the Vanquisher would be good.