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 Ailaros wrote:
I still don't get it. Sabres have the same leadership and close combat abilities as the rest of the army that they're in, so they've got serious problems?

It means they've got major weaknesses despite their increased resiliency, and that mitigating them requires a significant investment.

If, on the other hand, you assume at least a reasonably competent guard player, then the sabre just plainly beats everything, and should be spammed as hard as possible. Assuming you're taking them at all, of course.

Which, as explained, isn't necessarily a problem with the Sabre when the real problem is with what its replacing being bad and not the Sabre being "zomgwtfgood".

Same thing with Vets and ST's, lots of people complain that Vets are too good and thats why nobody takes ST's, when the real issue is that ST's are simply grossly overcosted for what they offer outside of a double-melta suicide DS unit.

It would of been one thing if they would of made Sabres into a HWT that is a artillery unit. I think everyone would of seen that as a reasonable unit. But for some reason they saw fit to give them Skyfire. And Interceptor. And Twin Link. And Extra Wounds. And free Searchlights.

If you look at the recent codex releases you can see the careful way in which GW is handling skyfire units. Each are getting acess to STR 7 AP4 skyfire units at reasonable costs. Each has access to Flyers (though the DA ones were poorly done). In the 3 codex releases so far not a single unit was given interceptor. There is a reason for this. GW is taking a slow, thoughtful approach to flyers. Forge World has no mandate to perserve game balance. They just crank out fluffy, cool looking models.

Inteceptor punishes flyers in a fashion no other unit that possesses it does. Deep Strikers can hide behind most terrain or their drop pods to avoid the interceptor fire. There is very little a flyer can do to avoid an interceptor shot. A battery of SDP will simply make flyers non-revealent in a game. No flyer can withstand 6 TL interceptor shot when they come on, not even hell drakes. If SDP become the norm you might as well as convert your Flyers into some cool looking terrain wrecks.

6thed has been out for less than a year and you see every army now has at least some answer to flyers. C:SM has Stormravens and talons, Tau will be getting skyfire broadside and two flyer variants, Orks have dakka jets and lootas, Chaos has the helldrake and Flakk Havocs, Demons can simply ignore them or take FMCs or skyfire Soul Grinders, DA got boned on their flyers but still have the cheapest devs and flakk missles, IG has hydras and Vendettas not to mention gobs of snap firing meltas and Plasma. Eldar you say? You better believe they will get some of the best anti-air out there when their codex comes out this year. Vector Dancer anyone? I wont even mention Necrons....

The point is Sabre and FW units in general fill a gap in the market for alterantive models and fluffy gameplay but are not even close to being balanced for competetive play. Maybe they will get there in future editions but the Sabre is not even close to being balanced for competetive 6thed play.

and yet they are not spammed hard by anyone that uses them.

They have a 48" range and are immobile.

You have to cluster them or they will run from the first lascannon shot that goes their way.

This means that fliers normally have half the board they can come on and that if played with decent terrain they suddenly only cover 1/3 of the board.

Immobile is huge. It is much bigger than you are giving it credit for by ignoring it(Ailros stop ignoring it). If you play with just 1 large terrain LoS blocking piece in the middle of the board the sabre will have range/LoS to only 1/3 of the board and cannot re-position mid game.

Also Glocknall if you think flakk missiles are the anti air being used you have not read the battle reports where the majority of anti air is quadd gun on an ADL. Most of the books have NOT gotten effective anti air options which is why the middle to high tiers have been dominated by flier lists. Though the highest tier has and hopefully always will be dominated by just downright good players.

If the eldar are done like the DA then they will have no realistic answer to flier spam other than ignore them. Flakk missiles just do not even remotely cut it.

Have any of the sabre defense platform op people ever even used one or even played against one?

If you just look at the stats and compare to any other shooting in the game, you see they are stupid.
Imagine how much people would cry if Long Fangs were T7 W2, but could not move. Would you take that? I would, in a heartbeat.
Twin-linked BS3 is better than BS4, and then you toss interceptor, skyfire, extra wounds that are T7, and scoring on it?

I would gladly trade Sabres for any infantry based long range shooting in the game. Yes, they suck in an assault. So what. They aren't tactical marines, they are dedicated shooters, and do that role more effectively than any other unit in the game.
What unit has any shred of durability that pumps out twin-linked lascannons for 50 points?

Again, this is just pure firepower, before you heap on interceptor, skyfire, additional T7 crew and scoring.

-Matt

 Ailaros wrote:
I still don't get it. Sabres have the same leadership and close combat abilities as the rest of the army that they're in, so they've got serious problems?

Yes, because they're a small but expensive squad (highest per-body cost in assault) that is completely destroyed if it ever fails a morale check. Anything that manages to assault them is pretty much guaranteed to wipe them out.

If, on the other hand, you assume at least a reasonably competent guard player, then the sabre just plainly beats everything, and should be spammed as hard as possible.

And, again, no. The Sabre is better than any non-Vendetta heavy weapon choices, but mostly because our non-Vendetta heavy weapon choices suck. They replace HWS and infantry LCs, they don't replace all the other things you want to have in your army.

But hey, maybe this is the solution to assault being terrible in 6th! IG players should spam nothing but LC Sabre guns and then assault orks will automatically win!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Glocknall wrote:
But for some reason they saw fit to give them Skyfire. And Interceptor. And Twin Link.

This isn't new at all. They had anti-aircraft mounts back in fourth edition.

If you look at the recent codex releases you can see the careful way in which GW is handling skyfire units. Each are getting acess to STR 7 AP4 skyfire units at reasonable costs. Each has access to Flyers (though the DA ones were poorly done). In the 3 codex releases so far not a single unit was given interceptor. There is a reason for this. GW is taking a slow, thoughtful approach to flyers. Forge World has no mandate to perserve game balance. They just crank out fluffy, cool looking models.

IOW, GW is taking a slow and careful approach, unless you happen to be IG and get Vendettas. Meanwhile if you're DA you get no flyers, if you're Eldar/Tau/SW you get no flyers or AA, etc. And meanwhile most of the "answers" to flyers are worthless flak missiles which can't effectively deal with the flyers that matter (Vendettas and Helldrakes) instead of legitimate counters. This is a terrible job of handling the flyer issue.

Meanwhile FW have been doing flyers since third edition, and have a reasonable selection of both flyers and ground AA units for every army.

If SDP become the norm you might as well as convert your Flyers into some cool looking terrain wrecks.

Are you just speculating about this, or have you actually looked at tournament reports where FW rules have been legal and found that flyers cease to exist as soon as Sabre guns are allowed?

Of course not this will not happen overnight but look how man armies ally in guard these days. It would be a simple thing just ro slap in a few SDPs and would begin to shift the meta quickly.

At the BAO the top table had sabres on it. I think you will see the same at adepticon and war games con.

Again their is no earthly reason given the lack of skyfire in 6thed codicies that sabres should get TL and skyfire and interceptor when GW has been reluctant to hand them out as of yet. When the 6th ed meta becomes more establish as more codexs comes out yoy might see some interceptor units appear but to put out a undercosted unit like sabres available to nearly every army would drastically affect reserve and flyer heavy list with little down side.

Sabers are not good against fast or swarm cc units.

Space wolves, csm, deamons, & dark eldar have a competitive unit of beasts or cavalry that can quickly over run sabers.

Swarms of nids or green tide orks can over run sabers.

The more an army spams a specific tool like lc the more it becomes vulnerable to target saturation.

Glocknall wrote:
Of course not this will not happen overnight but look how man armies ally in guard these days. It would be a simple thing just ro slap in a few SDPs and would begin to shift the meta quickly.

If it's so simple then why hasn't it happened yet?

At the BAO the top table had sabres on it. I think you will see the same at adepticon and war games con.

So what? If the top table has a Vendetta or Night Scythe or whatever do we act like the sky is falling and it's the end of the world? Or is "someone at the top table used this unit therefore it breaks the game and needs to be banned" only something that applies to units that you don't like?

Again their is no earthly reason given the lack of skyfire in 6thed codicies that sabres should get TL and skyfire and interceptor when GW has been reluctant to hand them out as of yet.

Sure there is. It's what Sabre guns had since fourth edition. The fact that they're just finally getting your attention now doesn't mean that they're new.

Also, see previous post about how GW is completely mishandling the whole flyer/AA issue.

Glocknall wrote:


It would of been one thing if they would of made Sabres into a HWT that is a artillery unit. I think everyone would of seen that as a reasonable unit. But for some reason they saw fit to give them Skyfire. And Interceptor. And Twin Link. And Extra Wounds. And free Searchlights.

Searchlights replace a gun, and that's a lot of points for just a searchlight, the extra purchaseable wounds is the only thing truly unnecessary on them.

If you look at the recent codex releases you can see the careful way in which GW is handling skyfire units. Each are getting acess to STR 7 AP4 skyfire units at reasonable costs.

So reasonable that they are almost never taken due to their high cost and relative lack of effectiveness against the "big" flyers.

Each has access to Flyers (though the DA ones were poorly done). In the 3 codex releases so far not a single unit was given interceptor. There is a reason for this. GW is taking a slow, thoughtful approach to flyers. Forge World has no mandate to perserve game balance. They just crank out fluffy, cool looking models.

Methinks ascribing any particular line of thought/approach/design to GW's flyers is likely giving credit where none may be due, we have no idea what GW's strategy really is, it certainly hasn't been consistent or balanced in itself. That said, assuming FW is attempting to address balance itself is also likely giving credit where none is due.

Inteceptor punishes flyers in a fashion no other unit that possesses it does.

True, but at the same time, in many games they are grossly overpowering, especially for what they cost, and counters to flyers in general are lacking or in many cases outright nonexistent.

Deep Strikers can hide behind most terrain or their drop pods to avoid the interceptor fire. There is very little a flyer can do to avoid an interceptor shot.

Jink and, if you've got proper terrain, use tall terrain to move behind

A battery of SDP will simply make flyers non-revealent in a game. No flyer can withstand 6 TL interceptor shot when they come on, not even hell drakes.

If you're just bringing one? Sure, but neither can any ground vehicle. And lets be honest, many fliers aren't paying a premium for their enhanced abilities over ground based vehicles. Plus you do have at least one turn to engage the Sabres. Put a couple wounds on them and force Ld7 tests, they then become irrelevant.

6thed has been out for less than a year and you see every army now has at least some answer to flyers. C:SM has Stormravens and talons, Tau will be getting skyfire broadside and two flyer variants, Orks have dakka jets and lootas, Chaos has the helldrake and Flakk Havocs, Demons can simply ignore them or take FMCs or skyfire Soul Grinders, DA got boned on their flyers but still have the cheapest devs and flakk missles, IG has hydras and Vendettas not to mention gobs of snap firing meltas and Plasma.

Why are IG the only ones counting short range infantry weapons? Flakk Missiles are nice in theory but are 25pts after flakk upgrade, and against the problem flyers (largely the AV11/12 ones) aren't exactly effective relative to their cost and quantity. How can Daemons simply "ignore" them?

Eldar you say? You better believe they will get some of the best anti-air out there when their codex comes out this year.

At present they have nothing, and anything on their future status is mere speculation. And what of DE? They've got a couple weeny fliers and that's about it to combat enemy fliers that in general are better armed and armored.

The point is Sabre and FW units in general fill a gap in the market for alterantive models and fluffy gameplay but are not even close to being balanced for competetive play. Maybe they will get there in future editions but the Sabre is not even close to being balanced for competetive 6thed play.

If you think Codex units are any better you're deluding yourself. Remember, it's the codex flyers that everyone has a problem with (one will notice nobody complaining about Thunderbolts, Avengers, Nightwings, Barracudas, etc)

HawaiiMatt wrote:
If you just look at the stats and compare to any other shooting in the game, you see they are stupid.
Imagine how much people would cry if Long Fangs were T7 W2, but could not move. Would you take that? I would, in a heartbeat.
Twin-linked BS3 is better than BS4, and then you toss interceptor, skyfire, extra wounds that are T7, and scoring on it?

If they were immobile, and cost 50+pts each instead of 20-30, lacked split fire, were BS3 and Ld7, and limited to 3 guns? They'd be a much different unit that one that's only T4 but Ld9, can at least hurt something in CC, can have up to 5 guns, can split fire, and can move, along with being much cheaper. Long Fangs have their own advantages.

What unit has any shred of durability that pumps out twin-linked lascannons for 50 points?

razorbacks are close (AV11 and T7 being largely similar), not quite as cheap, but are mobile, BS4 and not subject to leadership

The real problem with Sabres, insofar as there is one, is that they have Skyfire and Interceptor. What they should really have is "Shoots at ground and air at equal BS," which was tied to Interceptor for reasons that I really don't understand. But that's at least as much GW's fault for writing weird rules as it is FW's fault for being unimaginative. I don't think FW should get the blame, though I do agree that potential proliferation of Interceptor units is a serious problem.

 Kingsley wrote:
The real problem with Sabres, insofar as there is one, is that they have Skyfire and Interceptor. What they should really have is "Shoots at ground and air at equal BS," which was tied to Interceptor for reasons that I really don't understand.

Yeah, this was a really, really stupid decision. I have no idea why GW did it that way, it's bad from a pure-rules perspective and it doesn't even have some kind of "narrative" advantage to make up for it.

 Peregrine wrote:

Glocknall wrote:
Of course not this will not happen overnight but look how man armies ally in guard these days. It would be a simple thing just ro slap in a few SDPs and would begin to shift the meta quickly.

If it's so simple then why hasn't it happened yet?

$33 per sabre for a unit that you can only use in some events and games.
I don't want to drop $300 + tax + shipping (because nobody stocks them) on a unit that only gets limited use.

-Matt

Sabres are utterly broken AA units, but to be fair, most of Aeronautica includes utterly broken AA units thanks to intercepter letting said units also shoot at ground troops at full BS. Hyperios platforms, hyperios whirlwinds, etc, etc, are all far and away the best AA in the game.

If you remove fliers from the picture, Sabres are better HWS, but Vendettas are easily much, much better than them, as Vendettas can transport, are much more durable, and can reposition to easily deny basically anything cover saves.

Being T7 helps, but it's far from broken. The best way to deal with things behind Aegis lines are barrage weapons and close combat, both of which are relatively easy to do and in the case of barrage generally have the STR needed to dish out some heavy damage.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Glocknall wrote:
Of course not this will not happen overnight but look how man armies ally in guard these days. It would be a simple thing just ro slap in a few SDPs and would begin to shift the meta quickly.

If it's so simple then why hasn't it happened yet?

$33 per sabre for a unit that you can only use in some events and games.
I don't want to drop $300 + tax + shipping (because nobody stocks them) on a unit that only gets limited use.

-Matt

We've seen plenty of cheap proxies of them at events, you can make a reasonable proxy for about $6 in bits that I haven't seen been turned down at an event yet. Cost does not explain their lack of appearance at events.

 Kingsley wrote:
The real problem with Sabres, insofar as there is one, is that they have Skyfire and Interceptor. What they should really have is "Shoots at ground and air at equal BS," which was tied to Interceptor for reasons that I really don't understand. But that's at least as much GW's fault for writing weird rules as it is FW's fault for being unimaginative. I don't think FW should get the blame, though I do agree that potential proliferation of Interceptor units is a serious problem.

this is really the core of the issue. For some reason GW decided that units with Skyfire must suffer some sort of penalty, and that the mitigator to that was tied to an ability that allowed units to fire at arriving reserves. The whole way that went down was unnecessarily messy and convoluted, like much of 6th editions rules. The skyfire change has certainly hurt Hydra use, despite it being by far the most effective "codex" AA unit because the tank is complete dead weight against any opponent not running skimmers or lots of heavy fliers, so it ends up being gold against a very small number of opponents and a complete waste against most.

 Vaktathi wrote:

We've seen plenty of cheap proxies of them at events, you can make a reasonable proxy for about $6 in bits that I haven't seen been turned down at an event yet. Cost does not explain their lack of appearance at events.

Sounds great. Have any links and part lists? At $6, I'll buy and build them tomorrow.
I'll take a minimum platoon and run 5 units of 2 as platoon support.

 Kingsley wrote:
The real problem with Sabres, insofar as there is one, is that they have Skyfire and Interceptor. What they should really have is "Shoots at ground and air at equal BS," which was tied to Interceptor for reasons that I really don't understand. But that's at least as much GW's fault for writing weird rules as it is FW's fault for being unimaginative. I don't think FW should get the blame, though I do agree that potential proliferation of Interceptor units is a serious problem.

this is really the core of the issue. For some reason GW decided that units with Skyfire must suffer some sort of penalty, and that the mitigator to that was tied to an ability that allowed units to fire at arriving reserves. The whole way that went down was unnecessarily messy and convoluted, like much of 6th editions rules. The skyfire change has certainly hurt Hydra use, despite it being by far the most effective "codex" AA unit because the tank is complete dead weight against any opponent not running skimmers or lots of heavy fliers, so it ends up being gold against a very small number of opponents and a complete waste against most.

The issue of skyfire being linked to interceptor is easy to solve, and it's what the new broadsides rules are rumored to be: just have the unit choose each turn if it has skyfire or not. Come to think of it, that's how fliers already work! Then, SDPs always fire at BS3 and are another decent, though not overwhelming, AA/AT option.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Hydra is Terribad, because in the event it might be useful (lots of flyers on the table) said flyers are likely to target and pop hydras before they get to shoot.
It's utterly stupid that the hydra doesn't have interceptor yet the sabre does.

-Matt

If you give the Hydra both Skyfire and Interceptor, four to six of them would be an auto include in any IG list. As said before, the problem is not the platform, whether that's the Sabre with all the benefits or the Hydra with none of the benefits. The problem is that the Interceptor rule in combination with Skyfire is a bad setup. And we have a flyer, the Vendetta, that is hugely overpowered versus all the other flyers or counters to these flyers (possibly excluding the Heldrake).

Ah, the IG codex. It's like a list of some of the worst and best units in 40k. It's as though the codex is balanced by having ridiculous strengths make up for hideous weaknesses.
Let's hope that the next hard back instalment makes an attempt to fix this without resorting to random dice roll tables.

I think it will be random squad sizes and random weapons...yep roll 2d6 and that is your squad size. 1d6 with 2-4 being GL

I have to agree that interceptor should have been split into two rules. The current rule is just too important as is.

They suck and you should never take them ever ever in your life.
Take a vendetta instead.

I just got a print out of the Sabre's rules, and was wondering about a couple of things. Firstly, why do some people here say it has toughness 7? All I see is armour 10 all round. And 2nd, how does the two crew work? Are they on the base with the sabre, or separate. Do you target the gun or the crew? If you kill the crew does the gun die too?

 Trickstick wrote:
I have been considering taking a few and then putting a commissar LRBT with infernus shells next to them, creating a strong fire base bubble wrapped with a platoon and behind an aegis. The commissar tank seems a much better option than the lord commissar, as it can actually put down some extra fire power which ignores cover. ABG is also an ally you can take with no real "ally tax", as the HQ is the best bit and you only need one other troop tank.

What do people think about the 6" scout redeployment that you can do with the sabre? I can imagine that it would be useful but cannot think of the best way to use it.

I like my commissar tank as a vindicator + beast hunter shells. That thing just pisses people off so much especially vs things that IG usually have problems with (lots of MC spam like wraith knights + riptides + FMC's)

 sudojoe wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
I have been considering taking a few and then putting a commissar LRBT with infernus shells next to them, creating a strong fire base bubble wrapped with a platoon and behind an aegis. The commissar tank seems a much better option than the lord commissar, as it can actually put down some extra fire power which ignores cover. ABG is also an ally you can take with no real "ally tax", as the HQ is the best bit and you only need one other troop tank.

What do people think about the 6" scout redeployment that you can do with the sabre? I can imagine that it would be useful but cannot think of the best way to use it.

I like my commissar tank as a vindicator + beast hunter shells. That thing just pisses people off so much especially vs things that IG usually have problems with (lots of MC spam like wraith knights + riptides + FMC's)

Vindicator?

ted1138 wrote:
I just got a print out of the Sabre's rules, and was wondering about a couple of things.

You have the old rules from 5th edition, where artillery units worked differently. The current 6th edition rules are found in IA1 second edition.

 Peregrine wrote:

ted1138 wrote:
I just got a print out of the Sabre's rules, and was wondering about a couple of things.

You have the old rules from 5th edition, where artillery units worked differently. The current 6th edition rules are found in IA1 second edition.

That makes so much more sense. Had a look and yes, they are well worth having in my IG army...

 Mandor wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Hydra is Terribad, because in the event it might be useful (lots of flyers on the table) said flyers are likely to target and pop hydras before they get to shoot.
It's utterly stupid that the hydra doesn't have interceptor yet the sabre does.

-Matt

If you give the Hydra both Skyfire and Interceptor, four to six of them would be an auto include in any IG list. As said before, the problem is not the platform, whether that's the Sabre with all the benefits or the Hydra with none of the benefits. The problem is that the Interceptor rule in combination with Skyfire is a bad setup. And we have a flyer, the Vendetta, that is hugely overpowered versus all the other flyers or counters to these flyers (possibly excluding the Heldrake).

I like to use the stationary hydra batteries with camo netting 170 points gives you a 3+ cover save behind the ADL and 12 twin linked shots that ignore jink saves that have sky fire and intercept ( my opinion is these are much more viable than the hyrda tanks.

Matt2429 wrote:
I like to use the stationary hydra batteries with camo netting 170 points gives you a 3+ cover save behind the ADL and 12 twin linked shots that ignore jink saves that have sky fire and intercept ( my opinion is these are much more viable than the hyrda tanks.

Hydra platforms do NOT have interceptor. This was a mistake in the 6th edition update pdf, their current rules (in IA1) have removed it.

Is it possible to take Inquisitor with psyoculum and attach him to Sabre platform to shoot flying psykers? Like MFC, Angels flyers

Sure, it is not a bad place to put your prescience buff slave either as the artillery unit gives him T7.

BTW you should probably not resurrect dead threads. This is how horror movies start.