Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So im trying to figure out what to do with my stormtalon and how to play with it.
I have tried it at Anti-air, but it didnt work out so well. that was with Typhoon.
But i was thinking maybe using it as a gunboat with heavy bolters. that way it will be putting out 7 shots a turn, all twinlinked.
With it having strafing run, it seems to be more likely to pin.
Any ideas?

Isn't the skyhammer the AA version?

That would be my first choice.

Twinlinking is not that great, as you already have BS5 against ground targets, so increase in accuracy is not that great. Unless you are sure the only thing you're going to shoot are T3 models, I'd always take at least the Skyhammers (even if you're just going to shoot marine infantry with them, they're still easily worth the 15 points.)

I run mine with Typhoon as it is the all-rounder choice and I like my units to be flexible. It is rather expensive though.

After Death from the Skies, i believe the TAC (and wisest) choice is simply paying 15 extra pts for the Skyhammer missiles. Eveything else is wasting points imho.
I run two Talons as such and have earned more than their points back each game.
Just make sure you clear that Quad Gun off the board first turn and have some other units that can possibly be used for anti-air

Anti-air I run with TL-AC, TL-LC. It's good against any flier you come across, and also effective as an anti-tank role.

I always run the typhoons. Tried TL lascannons, and just didn't have good success with it. I prefer the typhoon to the Skyhammers by far as the extra range really doesn't come into play much, but the higher strength and better AP of the typhoon does.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I always run the typhoons. Tried TL lascannons, and just didn't have good success with it. I prefer the typhoon to the Skyhammers by far as the extra range really doesn't come into play much, but the higher strength and better AP of the typhoon does.

That's my reasoning as well. On the other hand, twenty points.

I was thinking a mortis Contemptoer with TL lascannnons for anti air.

What are you planning to shoot at with those heavy bolters?

I run mine with TL LCs. Its the only reliable way to take out the Vendetta, Helldrake and Stormravens out there.

 Brother Sergeant Bob wrote:
I run mine with TL LCs. Its the only reliable way to take out the Vendetta, Helldrake and Stormravens out there.

I agree with this. The +1 on the damage table is a major boost as well. The AP2 also helps when you have to shoot at TEQs for any reason.

I dunno. I've yet to meet a unit I couldn't kill by liberally applying Assault Cannon and 3 shot Autocannon to. Weight of fire will always win out against a single powerful shot.

With the change, Skyhammer and TL Asscannon seems to be the best load out. I've had my Heldrakes knocked out by these jerks going hover to shoot my rear. Too many 5+ saves to make. I like them just for that.

Doesn't skyhammer shoot small blasts only? If so yo cannot shoot them at enemy fliers. This is why I always go for typhoons.

Pony_law wrote:
Doesn't skyhammer shoot small blasts only? If so yo cannot shoot them at enemy fliers. This is why I always go for typhoons.

No, Skyhammer is Heavy 3

Skyhammer is a Heavy 3, no blast. Perfectly capable of targeting flyers.

As an aside, a lascannon has a 9% chance of destroying a Heldrake outright (including saves and damage rolls). Each shot from the skyhammer has a ~1.12% chance of destroying the Heldrake. The higher strength shot is much better against AV12 flyers. Even against the Vendetta, the lascannon talon has a ~13.6% chance of destroying it outright and the skyhammer only improves to ~1.6% chance per shot. The Stormtalon weapon loadout depends on its role in the army. As anti-flyer duty, I strongly prefer the lascannon.

Lascannon is the best for anti-flyer duties. The AP bonus on the damage table is worth it.

I advocate keeping things simple with the twin-linked assault cannon and heavy bolters. Most of the time you'll probably be flying over flyers to fire your Assault Cannon into their rear armor anyway. The exceptions are other Stormtalons and Scythes, where I believe skyhammers are the optimal upgrade, and Stormravens, where lascannons are the best option.

That said, I find myself excited about the Stormtalon at 110 points and not that excited about it at 125 or 140. In my opinion the advantage of the Stormtalon lies with its cheap and efficient nature, as well as its ability to handle infantry very effectively. Many upgrades actually decrease this ability.

Even Skyhammers, probably the best upgrade, make you worse against light units (with the exception of t3 multi-wound models) and only provide a minor upgrade against MEQ-- overall they are not worth their cost if your primary target is infantry and you intend to make the most of your assault cannon mount. All in all I believe that heavy bolters are likely the most efficient loadout, and if you think you might have trouble with some flyers adding a set of Skyhammer missiles isn't a terrible choice, but I'd stay away from the other upgrades.

I always run the assault cannon and lascannon. It serves as backup anti-tank as well as anti TEQ, elites and MC's. Works great.

I dunno. The problem with only firing one lascannon shot as opposed to three autocannon shots is that it means you're rolling less dice, thus increasing the chance that you won't get the result you want. It's the same logic behind the quad-gun being more expensive than the Icarus Lascannon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I'm confused at how switching to Skyhammer missiles makes you worse against light units. Like, really confused.

Needing to roll a 6 and then another 6 with the Skyhammer is probably why TL Lascannon is better at killing Stormravens/Helldrakes/Vendettas. The lascannon will usually hit anyway, so it is faaaar more effective than praying for box cars. Is it worth the extra points? Maybe, maybe not, but it is clearly a much better AA gun in a vacuum.

FrozenMarine wrote:
Also, I'm confused at how switching to Skyhammer missiles makes you worse against light units. Like, really confused.

Simple-- the heavy bolters are twin-linked and the Skyhammer missiles are not, while both have the same AP and number of shots, so against T3 units both wound on 2+, armor is irrelevant, and the heavy bolters are more accurate because they're twin-linked.

 Kingsley wrote:
I advocate keeping things simple with the twin-linked assault cannon and heavy bolters. Most of the time you'll probably be flying over flyers to fire your Assault Cannon into their rear armor anyway. The exceptions are other Stormtalons and Scythes, where I believe skyhammers are the optimal upgrade, and Stormravens, where lascannons are the best option.

That said, I find myself excited about the Stormtalon at 110 points and not that excited about it at 125 or 140. In my opinion the advantage of the Stormtalon lies with its cheap and efficient nature, as well as its ability to handle infantry very effectively. Many upgrades actually decrease this ability.

This.

You want to keep your Stormtalons cheap, and take 3 of them. When used as anti-air, you try to hit enemy flyers in the rear armor, which means that you wont be shooting any other guns but the 360 arc-of-fire assault cannon. This means that taking more expensive guns is wasting points.

After the flyers are dealt with, you start to work on infantry units with the Heavy Bolters.

 tomjoad wrote:
Needing to roll a 6 and then another 6 with the Skyhammer is probably why TL Lascannon is better at killing Stormravens/Helldrakes/Vendettas. The lascannon will usually hit anyway, so it is faaaar more effective than praying for box cars. Is it worth the extra points? Maybe, maybe not, but it is clearly a much better AA gun in a vacuum.

Why would I need to roll two sixes? Against other flyers I'd only have to roll 3+ to hit, then 5 to glance or 6 to penetrate. To explode the flyer, yeah I need a six, but I've killed more flyers by stripping hull points that exploding them anyway.

 McNinja wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:
Needing to roll a 6 and then another 6 with the Skyhammer is probably why TL Lascannon is better at killing Stormravens/Helldrakes/Vendettas. The lascannon will usually hit anyway, so it is faaaar more effective than praying for box cars. Is it worth the extra points? Maybe, maybe not, but it is clearly a much better AA gun in a vacuum.

Why would I need to roll two sixes? Against other flyers I'd only have to roll 3+ to hit, then 5 to glance or 6 to penetrate. To explode the flyer, yeah I need a six, but I've killed more flyers by stripping hull points that exploding them anyway.

Here's the math on AV 12 flyers (assuming a 5+ jink or 5++ demon save):

TL Assault Cannon: 35% chance of removing one hull point per turn (~8% per shot, all penetrating)

TL Lascannon: 36% chance of removing one hull point per turn (25% glance, 75% penetrating, 33% chance of kill per penetrating hit)

Skyhammer missiles: 43% chance of removing one hull point turn (50% glance, 50% penetrating, 16% chance of kill per pentrating)

So you are more likely to take off two hull points with a skyhammer missile storm talon but you are more likely to destroy the vehicle outright with the twin-linked lascannon. This is even more important with one weapon flyers like the heldrake, where the lascannon has a 50% shot of inflicting crippling damage (destroy bale flamer or wreck flyer). As an AA platform, the TL-Lascannon is superior for its ability to alter the game in one turn.

PanzerLeader wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:
Needing to roll a 6 and then another 6 with the Skyhammer is probably why TL Lascannon is better at killing Stormravens/Helldrakes/Vendettas. The lascannon will usually hit anyway, so it is faaaar more effective than praying for box cars. Is it worth the extra points? Maybe, maybe not, but it is clearly a much better AA gun in a vacuum.

Why would I need to roll two sixes? Against other flyers I'd only have to roll 3+ to hit, then 5 to glance or 6 to penetrate. To explode the flyer, yeah I need a six, but I've killed more flyers by stripping hull points that exploding them anyway.

Here's the math on AV 12 flyers (assuming a 5+ jink or 5++ demon save):

TL Assault Cannon: 35% chance of removing one hull point per turn (~8% per shot, all penetrating)

TL Lascannon: 36% chance of removing one hull point per turn (25% glance, 75% penetrating, 33% chance of kill per penetrating hit)

Skyhammer missiles: 43% chance of removing one hull point turn (50% glance, 50% penetrating, 16% chance of kill per pentrating)

So you are more likely to take off two hull points with a skyhammer missile storm talon but you are more likely to destroy the vehicle outright with the twin-linked lascannon. This is even more important with one weapon flyers like the heldrake, where the lascannon has a 50% shot of inflicting crippling damage (destroy bale flamer or wreck flyer). As an AA platform, the TL-Lascannon is superior for its ability to alter the game in one turn.

I see. Well, it makes sense, even without the math, though verification is never bad. I'm probably gonna test both versions and see which I prefer.

Here's the math on AV 12 flyers (assuming a 5+ jink or 5++ demon save):

TL Assault Cannon: 35% chance of removing one hull point per turn (~8% per shot, all penetrating)

TL Lascannon: 36% chance of removing one hull point per turn (25% glance, 75% penetrating, 33% chance of kill per penetrating hit)

Skyhammer missiles: 43% chance of removing one hull point turn (50% glance, 50% penetrating, 16% chance of kill per pentrating)

So you are more likely to take off two hull points with a skyhammer missile storm talon but you are more likely to destroy the vehicle outright with the twin-linked lascannon. This is even more important with one weapon flyers like the heldrake, where the lascannon has a 50% shot of inflicting crippling damage (destroy bale flamer or wreck flyer). As an AA platform, the TL-Lascannon is superior for its ability to alter the game in one turn.

Agreed. You ninja'd me on the more detailed explanation as well. If you want cheap anti-infantry like Kingsley suggests, there are far better options in the marine codex. If you want more uber anti-air..there are better FW options. If you live in an area that doesn't allow FW anti-air...the TL Lascannon loadout on the Stormtalon is a good answer for anti-flyer duties for all the reasons above.

 Kingsley wrote:

FrozenMarine wrote:
Also, I'm confused at how switching to Skyhammer missiles makes you worse against light units. Like, really confused.

Simple-- the heavy bolters are twin-linked and the Skyhammer missiles are not, while both have the same AP and number of shots, so against T3 units both wound on 2+, armor is irrelevant, and the heavy bolters are more accurate because they're twin-linked.

You realize shots will hit on 2+ since they're shooting at ground targets, right? And that MEQs are more common than most anything else?

FrozenMarine wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

FrozenMarine wrote:
Also, I'm confused at how switching to Skyhammer missiles makes you worse against light units. Like, really confused.

Simple-- the heavy bolters are twin-linked and the Skyhammer missiles are not, while both have the same AP and number of shots, so against T3 units both wound on 2+, armor is irrelevant, and the heavy bolters are more accurate because they're twin-linked.

You realize shots will hit on 2+ since they're shooting at ground targets, right? And that MEQs are more common than most anything else?

In my experience, MEQs are much less common in 6th edition.

FrozenMarine wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

FrozenMarine wrote:
Also, I'm confused at how switching to Skyhammer missiles makes you worse against light units. Like, really confused.

Simple-- the heavy bolters are twin-linked and the Skyhammer missiles are not, while both have the same AP and number of shots, so against T3 units both wound on 2+, armor is irrelevant, and the heavy bolters are more accurate because they're twin-linked.

You realize shots will hit on 2+ since they're shooting at ground targets, right? And that MEQs are more common than most anything else?

That's his point. They both hit on 2+, Wound on 2+ and have the same number of shots. But the Heavy Bolter is twin-linked, so against light infantry it is better. Of course, it's not that much better, but still better.