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Simply put, I know how computers function in 40k (usage and maintenance are embedded in the rituals of the admech so when a cogboy does his voodoo stuff he's using it like normal), but I'm curious if anyone knows what they're like meaning do they function like today's, with a processor hooked up to a motherboard that has many different components processing electronic signals through silicon boards and such? Or is there some other way they are built?

In almost all the books I've read, most of the characters have such a rudimentary knowledge of how to use computers that there's little indication given of how they work, and the terminology like "cogitators," "codifiers" and "picto-slates" hardly helps. I was just thinking that if they worked like ours today, being in the typical 40k scale some forge worlds must have massive computers controlling most of the manufactorium functions across the planet. Imagine how big they'd be in said 40k scale!

Hmm... Imagine how big of a BATTLE could be fought in one...

I'm guessing most normal people have what we would call computers and that non-admech people service them. I would guess that a cogitator is different in that it makes large decisions like targeting and what encryption filters to use. The average imperial citizen probably has a far less powerful machine to the point where the Admech might not even think of it as having a machine spirit. To them silicone is just primordial ooze, and the average persons computer would be the equivalent of an ant or even a microbe if important at all.




They probably see personal electronics in the same way they see a screwdriver, a tool or device that has no machine spirit. Even if they did care, they don't have the resources to reach down to that level of interfering and repairing the average persons calculator.



Basically its where the average person might know about personal electronics and even be in that business, but when it comes to targeting cogitators, stability modules for titans, baneblade AI, only the Admech techpriest can access and interpret the data needed to make any sort of impact on their functionality.

The imperium requires technology to be operated by the flesh of mortals, constantly hooked up the the machine.

Better than anything we have today for sure.

I can imagine ordinary people using machines that are like ours/better than ours.
And AM using more advanced machines and even integrating them with Human flesh where it needed ( because believe it or not information is travelling faster trough live tissue than any conducting metal ).

I am not sure for others...

Regardless of how advanced they are, if it's 40K, I bet most of them are massive. Probably huge devices bolted to a desk with carved wooden keyboards with brass typewriter keys, etc...unfortunately it's near impossible to say how they work in terms of what components they need, etc as it seems fluff writers don't spend too much time on that. I think it's safe to say that they have some extremely sophisticated stuff available, but the AdMech probably guard the knowledge of how they actually work pretty closely.

When a writer describes a cogitator (I just treat this as being exactly equivalent to the term "computer") we're of course usually seeing military ones, but it seems they're pretty advanced, capable of mapping battlefields in no time, generating simulations of how a battle is likely to go, etc. Despite what I said earlier about them being big, it seems that the Imperium is practical enough to provide some pretty nifty shrunk down technology, such as the "cogitator gauntlets" of Vanus Assassins and "data slates," which when mentioned in BL sound like tablets and which often seem to turn up in the IG.

It also seems like some worlds might have an internet-like system. I think in Necropolis there are public terminals mentioned several times, though I also expect any internet would be very heavily censored and controlled.

The average Imperial citizen does not use a computer. They are not trained in the mysteries of the Machine Cult and thus would not know the proper Rites of Activation or at which time it is proper to strike the Activation Rune.

Cogitators are computers. They tend to be large, mysterious devices, with flickering green-and-black or black-and-white screens, heavy and ponderous. From various descriptions in a number of sources (most of them BL in origin, granted) they take the form of what we would describe as a Macintosh or IBM workstation, circa 1983. Big, heavy CRT monitor; big, heavy keyboard/mainboard as an integrated unit; heavy, boxy external disk drives (5 1/4" floppy); connected by a confusing tangle of cables and ribbons. Many of these cogitators also feature a number of I/O ports (LPT, Serial, Firewire... this is the Imperium, USB was never invented) and run dot-matrix printers, with the paper in an unending sheet, with hole-punched edges and perforations ever so many inches that permit tearing it off the ream.

Cogitator:


Auto-Quill:



... of course, in certain exclusive faction, far more advanced (and much, much, much larger) computing devices exist, and the major Forge Worlds of the Mechanicus are in possession of Quantum Computing devices, as that is how they share information with the Forges of Mars. Holographic monitors and other high-tech such does exist, but it is rare. The majority of computers in the Imperium resemble the room-sized calculators of the computers of 1957.

Picto-slate, to me, sounds like a fancy far-fetched version of a tablet PC. A "slate" that displays pictures.

 Psienesis wrote:
Auto-Quill:

When I read "autoquill" I always assume something more like an autopen but with a big fancy quill and more skulls/purity seals on it.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The imperium requires technology to be operated by the flesh of mortals, constantly hooked up the the machine.

And thus were born Servitors 71NKY-W1NKY, D1P5Y, L4L4 and P0.

Basically a hyper advanced Commodore 64.

So am I right in assuming it's safe to say many forge worlds would probably feature some huge versions of what computers are today to control the planet's vast manufacturing plants? Seems like from what you say and show that it's comparable to just *better* versions of what we have, and there's no magical AI wisping around in the machines so... Lots of silicon and circuitry with plenty of heat sinks and cards stuck in?

AI is actually forbidden by the Mechanicus, condemned as "Silica Animus", which was responsible for the Men of Iron rebelling against Humanity during the Dark Age of Technology and nearly destroying Mankind (yes, this is also the plot to the Cylon Wars of Battlestar Galactica... if it exists in sci-fi, GW has adopted it).

So, basically, yes. Big-ass, huge computers (that might be not-at-all computer-looking in appearance) that run the air-scrubbers, water-pumps, and what-all-else for Hives, starships, whatever.

I think we've got more advance computers here than most "logic engines" that are present in the 40k universe

They always seem very 'typewriter' like in the novels.

 Psienesis wrote:
AI is actually forbidden by the Mechanicus, condemned as "Silica Animus", which was responsible for the Men of Iron rebelling against Humanity during the Dark Age of Technology and nearly destroying Mankind (yes, this is also the plot to the Cylon Wars of Battlestar Galactica... if it exists in sci-fi, GW has adopted it).

To be fair AI rebelling is a staple of the genre and to imply GW is stealing it goes a bit far. The Terminator and the Matrix franchises both function on the same premise.

Indeed! And both post-date BSG.

There is evidence of some rather advanced computer and information transfer technology.

The noossphere for example seems to act much like the internet, only better. Those with the augmentations attuned to it can see the data floating in the air, communicate instantaneously etc.

The 3rd ed rulebook mentions haptic hologram interfaces. So rather than a keyboard you have a holographic projection you can interface with. The text mentions that this is useful on starships where conservation of space is an issue.

Then we have crystal storage stacks, data slates, nano etching, and all sorts of other funky data storage capabilities.

 Psienesis wrote:
Indeed! And both post-date BSG.

Which massively post dates Asimov, who massivly post dates Frankenstein, and Mary Shelly probably has ideas from many other people.

Anyway, computing in the IoM seems to be quite advanced, but like much tech unreliable and in the hands of a few. There are many examples of people having access to data slates and the like, both military and civilian. I'm sure much like now the AdMech have access to much more powerfull stuff and more esoteric computing. What use does the average person have for a super computor or a highly efficient manufacturing machine that runs on assembaly level code?

The low level computing does seem very powerful however, with the military stuff able to do very complex calculations producing holo outputs showing real time projections of battle simulations.

I think the main thing'd be the mix of high and low level computing power. I imagine lots of the 'donkey work' is done by hugely powerful but also vast in size 'logic engines' which do things like vent toxins from ships, control the engines, run the manufacturing processes. These are advanced but automated, they just run the way they've run for thousands of years.

Likewise, there's probably some places with 'data slates' and programmable computers with holographic interfaces and extremely fast data processing capabilities. But to the imperium it's just another level of 'magic' which is accepted but not understood.

I imagine therefore that most computers in 40k are clockwork/vacuum tubes/colussus style behemoths of arcing electricity and coiled cables.

I often think of IoM tech as functional, rather than stylish, advanced or "slick". Noisy, ugly, and dated-looking, even if the processor/processes they use are complex or powerful.
Kinda like this:



Only bigger and much, much more of it.

 rems01 wrote:
There is evidence of some rather advanced computer and information transfer technology.

The noossphere for example seems to act much like the internet, only better. Those with the augmentations attuned to it can see the data floating in the air, communicate instantaneously etc.

The 3rd ed rulebook mentions haptic hologram interfaces. So rather than a keyboard you have a holographic projection you can interface with. The text mentions that this is useful on starships where conservation of space is an issue.

Then we have crystal storage stacks, data slates, nano etching, and all sorts of other funky data storage capabilities.

Here, this might be helpful:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/noosphere

.... and while holographic haptic interfaces are cool... it's basically a fancy keyboard or screen-less touchscreen (think the bridge crew of the Normandy in Mass Effect, they're using haptic holographic interfaces). And, yeah, they have nifty ways to store data... we, in M2, are not far off from that, actually.

Even though advanced AI is banned, some of the more powerful Machine Spirits sound a lot like AI to me, if only rudimentary. (Yes, rudimentary-advanced AI, bear with me)
Land Raiders are a good example, they can fire a gun on their own, and there's examples of them actually just going off on their own and taking stuff down. I think it's in C:SM, it's an Crimson Fist Land Raider, when the Orks are attacking, it just comes to life and starts killing on it's own.
In the HH series too, Titan Princeps and Moderatii talk about the personalities of the titans, with the titan itself wanting to go somewhere/ blow something up.

So yeah, advanced AI being banned is, to me, like the Grey Knights being secret. The higher ups may believe it to be true, but it's just not so.

I agree with Buca

I always assumed there were cogitators AND computers
One was a tool to make data processing easier
The other was an actual logic engine that is built to make decisions like which enemy to target, or if a starship needs to engage fail safes and start venting atmosphere to stop a fire, but if there is an incredibly important person in the area it might decide to risk the ship to save a general or something.



If non Mechanicus didn't even understand up to the level of computers of today (as in power-wise, they might be monochrome but can still be powerful) the Imperium would grind to a halt. The Mechanicum doesn't care about your calculator, I would say that what we call supercomputers would be considered a high end business computer for a trader who operates an intercontinintal trade operation. It's the interplanetary computers that would be of concern to the Mechanicum, the kinds that might make a business decision, or interpret data in place of a human. The Mechanicum doesn't care about a number crunching machine or word processor anymore than say a screwdriver or hammer.

The Imperium may be regressing technologically, but it is still beyond our comprehension how powerful their computers are, they probably would see someone repairing a computer of today as the equivalent of a janitor dusting a table.

AI is illegal, and even things that come too close to AI are illegal. Computers are highly primitive, usually based around Servitors with cranial processing units, as opposed to actual good computers. Convicts, undesirables, and revolutionaries are likely used for these servitors, lobotomized and remade as near mindless servants of the Administratum.

Despite being primitive, computers are equipped with a few advanced and misunderstand features, courtesy of the Dark Age of the Technology. Look no further than hololiths, autotargetting systems, artificial gravity generators, and the like. STCs are an exceptional example of this, able to easily and reliably produce incredibly complex machinery, requiring as little resources and as little as manpower as possible.

Despite what I've said earlier, The Adeptus Mechanicus may be edging towards AI. There is talk of Machine-Spirits including the idea of Land Raiders driving themselves and guns shooting themselves. Assuming this even occurs (and isn't just Imperial propaganda), it isn't guaranteed to be AI. It could be Ctan trickery (the Mechanicum is heavily involved with the Void Dragon, who may have had a guiding hand in their research) or worse, daemonic possession. In either case, assuming it is even real, it is not only illegal by also dangerous. The Mechanicum is walking a thin line with it.

Communication is poor. The Imperium is mainly reliant on Astropaths to relay messages, as opposed to any technological means. Even the concept of Internet seems too advanced for the Imperium. It is possible that the Imperium has the capacity for such a vast and convenient communications system, but has actively chosen to hide it. After all, communication gives the people a means for coordinating resistance and rebellion. The less the people say and, more importantly, the less the people know, the better.

Sir Samuel Buca wrote:Even though advanced AI is banned, some of the more powerful Machine Spirits sound a lot like AI to me, if only rudimentary. (Yes, rudimentary-advanced AI, bear with me)
Land Raiders are a good example, they can fire a gun on their own, and there's examples of them actually just going off on their own and taking stuff down. I think it's in C:SM, it's an Crimson Fist Land Raider, when the Orks are attacking, it just comes to life and starts killing on it's own.
In the HH series too, Titan Princeps and Moderatii talk about the personalities of the titans, with the titan itself wanting to go somewhere/ blow something up.

So yeah, advanced AI being banned is, to me, like the Grey Knights being secret. The higher ups may believe it to be true, but it's just not so.

To clarify a few things, since there are misunderstandings here...

The law again AI is actually "You shall not create Iron without Souls."

Artificial intelligence is banned outright. Advanced machine spirits like the one in the Land Raider are the result of human components built into the tank itself. The Land Raider's machine spirit is actually the soul of a Mechanicum menial or slave that's been shackled into the vehicle. In some ways, it's not THAT different to the Dark Mechanicum binding daemons into vehicles.

Not that I don't believe you, you are a well of knowledge both here and on B&C, but any ideas for the source of that info on the Machine Spirits, sounds interesting.

Edit: Post 666, spooky [insert ominous sound effects here]

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Artificial intelligence is banned outright. Advanced machine spirits like the one in the Land Raider are the result of human components built into the tank itself. The Land Raider's machine spirit is actually the soul of a Mechanicum menial or slave that's been shackled into the vehicle. In some ways, it's not THAT different to the Dark Mechanicum binding daemons into vehicles.

I have neaver heard this. As far as I am aware it is a form of AI. Things like Titans have very complex machine spirits, but they are still incapable of working on there own, but they are not human parts, but computor parts.

The Manifold (the Titan's machine spirit) is so powerful because it contains echoes of every Princeps, Moderati, Enginseer, Steersman and Servitor who has ever plugged into it. Effectively it uses a form of brain upload to allow direct mental interfacing with the Titan's systems.

Source for that is the graphic novel Titan, and the book Titanicus, as well as the book Mechanicum.

I don't recall exactly where I read the information about Iron Without Souls. I believe it was a piece of fluff in White Dwarf comparing Necrons to Iron Men and Imperial technology. In Hammer and Anvil, a more recent source, a Necron Cryptek comments about a Techpriest's primitive and limited attempts at biotransference.

Steve steveson wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Artificial intelligence is banned outright. Advanced machine spirits like the one in the Land Raider are the result of human components built into the tank itself. The Land Raider's machine spirit is actually the soul of a Mechanicum menial or slave that's been shackled into the vehicle. In some ways, it's not THAT different to the Dark Mechanicum binding daemons into vehicles.

I have neaver heard this. As far as I am aware it is a form of AI. Things like Titans have very complex machine spirits, but they are still incapable of working on there own, but they are not human parts, but computor parts.

An old cut-away view of the.... Razorback? Rhino? I forget... showed a box containing a brain housed deep within the machine. Several Imperial machines use organic components from human and other sources (animals) as their processing plants.

It was a Razorback, I think. I kind of remember looking at it and thinking "But where do the gunner's legs go?" Gah, where was it... the 3e blood angels codex maybe? White Dwarf maybe...