Dealing with Swarmlord

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**Dundas**

Lvl 3 biomancy princes have a pretty good chance of EW as well though, although I grant you that once you're in combat getting it without a perils could be difficult.

Advantage of Demon Rewards is that you roll them after the psyker rolls, so you should know if the Swarmlord has EW or not and can decide whether to take the instant death sword or something else.

I'm not sure about PBs being the solution. Even a blob of 20 charging, Swarmy will go first, and probably kill at least 3 of them, probably more. Not sure on the stats on a hive guard but I'm guessing that's at least another 2-3 dead before the PBs even hit back. I don't see them doing enough wounds in return to avoid an instability test and take more wounds, and after that it'll all be downhill, and the Swarmlord squad will just mop them up in the following assault phase. If the SL gets the charge on the PBs they'd only be doing about 15 attacks after casualties and be lucky to do any wounds, meaning it's even worse for them.

**MarkyMark**

PB's do have a banner that makes them wound on a 2plus posion attacks, if you prescience them first then charge and kick off the banner with a squad of 19 plus herald (herald denies challenege I am assuming) then that should be a few wounds, a group of PB's managed to put 3 wounds on my DP the other other after I charged them and without prescience

Or do what I did when facing a blood thirster on sunday, shoot 2 squads of horrors at him plus LoC's flickering fire and life leech, managed to kill him with weight of fire!. The BT and swarmy have the same comparable stats to shooting, 3 plus save 5 wounds and toughness 6. Sadly the swarmy gets a better DTW though.

**Dundas**

I'd forgot about the banner, that could be a big help, especially if the PBs charge. Not sure about the herald, wouldn't the instant death of Swarmy negate the FNP locus?

I think shooty horrors might be just a bit too risky - between deny the witch, shadow in the warp and the possibility of Swarmy having t7-9 due to iron arm I'm not sure you could lay down enough wounds before getting charged.

**Super Ready**

The point behind Plaguebearers is that they will not run from combat. Sure they might lose 3 or so, and maybe another 1 or 2 to Daemonic Instability, but they have then locked the Swarmlord down in combat. *THEN* you charge the Daemonettes in, who'll get their full number of attacks in because the Swarmlord was prevented from charging them in turn.

**Dundas**

Well I think that you'd lose more than 3 to the Swarmy if he's got 3 hive guard, more like 5-6 (and therefore likely more to DI), but depends on the rolls I guess.

I'd have thought demonettes would be fast enough to ensure the first charge even without PBs holding him up. Also, I'd think demonettes will die just as quick as PBs to the swarmlord (and not run either) so maybe better with just two units of them rather than 1 plague and 1 demonette?

Actually, how about bloodletters? AP3 sword and more attacks?

**McNinja**

JimbobBar wrote:
So we have been playing small 1000 point games in my local, and I have been trying out the new daemons.

A regular opponent takes tyranids, and consistently takes a swarmlord with 3 (hive guard?) big tough tyranid, and a doom of malantai in a spore. The rest of the army fills out differently, but this is the core of my troubles.

Should I just avoid the swarmlord? how should I deal with Doom? soul grinders have a half decent chance at instgibbing the doom, but there is also a large chance that the Doom kills in first in CC. The low LD of daemons means that the Doom is almost always on 10W after it arrives, during that shooting phase.

Nothing I try against swarmlord does the trick. He often takes biomancy and tends to get iron arm which stops any hope of instant death.

I was thinking of putting karanak in a unit of 20 bloodletters and goin for it. I can't remember the swarmlords armour, but he gets a 4++ in CC.

Ideally i would shoot the sunvabitch to pieces from afar, but with Chaos Daemons it is far more likely I give the unit 6+ FNP.

I thought daemonettes would do well with their rending since they need 6's anyway, but even a whole mob of 20 WITH the charge only inflicted a single wound on the swarmlords unit. Bad luck maybe, but i not too far off average, pardon me if I am wrong.

CC with the doom seems to be suicide unless it is immune to the shooting phase thing. Hence soul grinder. Its 3++ kicks you in the teeth every time though.

Maybe my luck is just awful, it sure seems to be, but suggestions would be good!

You have several options:

1: Skarbrand - more attacks, higher Int, also ID's
2: Bloodcrushers
3: Seekers of Slaanesh
4: Plaguebearers with the Icon and FnP Herald
5: GUO with Gloryseeker, 1 Greater reaward, and ML3 (all biomancy). On a good day you'll be S9 T10 I7 with more than 7 wounds and attacks. SW can't wound that unless he has Iron Arm.

**Super Ready**

Plaguebearers are more survivable thanks to higher Toughness (ok, not so relevant here, but still) but also because you can give them a Herald to bring their old FNP back.
Daemonettes, on the other hand, are only T3. They are Fleet, but with 6th's changes to Fleet that's no longer enough to give them the extra speed needed.

I also picked these in particular because you can get a full 20 models, together with a Herald each and a smattering of options, for roughly the same points that the Swarmlord and guards costs (a bit shy of 500). Whatever's left afterwards is also Troops so can continue to be useful.

**Barrywise**

Someone mentioned allying in the black mace or axe of blind fury, why not just take the grape tastic murder sword on a DP? Who doesn't like Str 10 Ap 1?

**Sasori**

McNinja wrote:
JimbobBar wrote:
So we have been playing small 1000 point games in my local, and I have been trying out the new daemons.

A regular opponent takes tyranids, and consistently takes a swarmlord with 3 (hive guard?) big tough tyranid, and a doom of malantai in a spore. The rest of the army fills out differently, but this is the core of my troubles.

Should I just avoid the swarmlord? how should I deal with Doom? soul grinders have a half decent chance at instgibbing the doom, but there is also a large chance that the Doom kills in first in CC. The low LD of daemons means that the Doom is almost always on 10W after it arrives, during that shooting phase.

Nothing I try against swarmlord does the trick. He often takes biomancy and tends to get iron arm which stops any hope of instant death.

I was thinking of putting karanak in a unit of 20 bloodletters and goin for it. I can't remember the swarmlords armour, but he gets a 4++ in CC.

Ideally i would shoot the sunvabitch to pieces from afar, but with Chaos Daemons it is far more likely I give the unit 6+ FNP.

I thought daemonettes would do well with their rending since they need 6's anyway, but even a whole mob of 20 WITH the charge only inflicted a single wound on the swarmlords unit. Bad luck maybe, but i not too far off average, pardon me if I am wrong.

CC with the doom seems to be suicide unless it is immune to the shooting phase thing. Hence soul grinder. Its 3++ kicks you in the teeth every time though.

Maybe my luck is just awful, it sure seems to be, but suggestions would be good!

You have several options:

1: Skarbrand - more attacks, higher Int, also ID's
2: Bloodcrushers
3: Seekers of Slaanesh
4: Plaguebearers with the Icon and FnP Herald
5: GUO with Gloryseeker, 1 Greater reaward, and ML3 (all biomancy). On a good day you'll be S9 T10 I7 with more than 7 wounds and attacks. SW can't wound that unless he has Iron Arm.

1. As been discussed, If the Swarmlord Nabs Iron Arm (80% chance) This won't work.

2. Bloodcrushers go after the Swarmlord, and For every failed Invul, is a dead Bloodcrusher. They also go after him. not a good choice.

3. Seekers could maybe work, I'd have to run the numbers.

4. You can't take FNP against the Swarmlords attacks, as they cause instant death.

5. You would have to kill him that turn, as LD 9 and SITW means you're not passing another psychic test. This also assumes that the Swarmlord doesn't have Iron arm himself, which is unlikely.

**Exergy**

Deadshot wrote:
I'm not familiar with new Daemons but what about allying a Daemon Prince with Axe of Blind Fury or Black Mace? Failing that, hurl something suitably big and Khorne at it and you might have a shot.

better to give him a murdersword, and that only works if he doesnt have EW. The princes are just too fragile. They arent going to kill him before he gets to strike, and they arent going to survive 1 round of his strikes unless they have EW, which they wont.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Barrywise wrote:
Someone mentioned allying in the black mace or axe of blind fury, why not just take the grape tastic murder sword on a DP? Who doesn't like Str 10 Ap 1?

works if he doesnt have Iron Arms, but if he does, you wont do enough wounds

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dundas wrote:
Lvl 3 biomancy princes have a pretty good chance of EW as well though, although I grant you that once you're in combat getting it without a perils could be difficult.

Do they have to take 1 power from their god tables like CSM or not, still only 33-50% chance to get it and then casting it near SotW will stop your Ld 9 most of the time.

**ace101**

If you were C:SM, TH/SS termies FTW, but you're daemons......

Skulltaker with maybe a Grimlore might do it, or give Fateweaver iron arm & grimlore if you can, and he can probably tie down the Sl, but the SITW wil hurt him trying to cast iron arm. Barring that, like almost everyone has said: tar-pit w/ PB or ignore him.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
That will cost lots of points, so you might be in the same boat as the other player.

**MarkyMark**

Nah GUO can take all three from the biomancy table. Think the plague bearers will be the best bet but the banner is one use only and you would have to get the charge off to make it worth while, then theres the hiveguard to think off.

Dont think daemons are the best bet against swarmy, krak missiles usually do the job for me

**Exergy**

ally in DE. 3 venoms will take him down in a few turns. It wont matter what stuff he rolls on biomancy or how many hiveguard he has.

300 points should get you 8 splinter cannons, 48 shots, 32 hits, 16 wounds. Even with a 3+ save, 5.33 wounds a turn. He and his bodyguard will be dead by turn 3.

**Deadshot**

Exergy wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
Deadshot wrote: I'm not familiar with new Daemons but what about allying a Daemon Prince with Axe of Blind Fury or Black Mace? Failing that, hurl something suitably big and Khorne at it and you might have a shot.

better to give him a murdersword, and that only works if he doesnt have EW. The princes are just too fragile. They arent going to kill him before he gets to strike, and they arent going to survive 1 round of his strikes unless they have EW, which they wont.

As mention, Swarmlord is highly likely to have Iron Arm. Personaly I like the odds of a Slaanesh prince with Black Mace and 2 Biomancy/1 Slaanesh powers. Wound on 2+ and gets 5+D6 attacks. And has a chance to ignore EW. Not only that but he can vector strike the turn before.

**Exergy**

Deadshot wrote:
Exergy wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
Deadshot wrote: I'm not familiar with new Daemons but what about allying a Daemon Prince with Axe of Blind Fury or Black Mace? Failing that, hurl something suitably big and Khorne at it and you might have a shot.

better to give him a murdersword, and that only works if he doesnt have EW. The princes are just too fragile. They arent going to kill him before he gets to strike, and they arent going to survive 1 round of his strikes unless they have EW, which they wont.

As mention, Swarmlord is highly likely to have Iron Arm. Personaly I like the odds of a Slaanesh prince with Black Mace and 2 Biomancy/1 Slaanesh powers. Wound on 2+ and gets 5+D6 attacks. And has a chance to ignore EW. Not only that but he can vector strike the turn before.

so 5+d6 attacks. lets say 9 attacks. You have to roll to hit, then wound, then get through the swarmlords 4++. You are looking at 2.5 wounds on a 6 wound MC. Very unlikely to put him down in the first round, as he isnt going to fail his toughness test. In return the Swarmlord is simply going to punk the prince, as the prince is still going to be T5 without EW and a 5++. 1 wound is all it takes.

**Dundas**

Against Swarmy PB's are no more survivable than any other demon troop choice. At St 6 he's going to be wounding on 2's for both t3 and t4, and he's ignoring FNP with his instant death. I suppose they might survive a bit better against the hive guard, although I doubt enough to make much differnce. Main advantage of PBs is that they wound on a 4+ (2+ with banner) regardless of his toughness, not that they'll tarpit him any better.

**cryhavok**

Herald of slaanesh in exalted chariot joint to a cavalcade of exalted chariots for 16d6 rending attacks at I10.

Vector strike him to death after shooting up his gaurd with soulgrinders or skull cannons.

Plaguedrones with deaths heads pulling a JSJ manuever.

Use masque of slaanesh's dance of caging to lock to down, unable to charge anything. Then otherwise ignore it.

Tons of options if you take allies into account.

**Deadshot**

Exergy wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
Exergy wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
Deadshot wrote: I'm not familiar with new Daemons but what about allying a Daemon Prince with Axe of Blind Fury or Black Mace? Failing that, hurl something suitably big and Khorne at it and you might have a shot.

better to give him a murdersword, and that only works if he doesnt have EW. The princes are just too fragile. They arent going to kill him before he gets to strike, and they arent going to survive 1 round of his strikes unless they have EW, which they wont.

As mention, Swarmlord is highly likely to have Iron Arm. Personaly I like the odds of a Slaanesh prince with Black Mace and 2 Biomancy/1 Slaanesh powers. Wound on 2+ and gets 5+D6 attacks. And has a chance to ignore EW. Not only that but he can vector strike the turn before.

so 5+d6 attacks. lets say 9 attacks. You have to roll to hit, then wound, then get through the swarmlords 4++. You are looking at 2.5 wounds on a 6 wound MC. Very unlikely to put him down in the first round, as he isnt going to fail his toughness test. In return the Swarmlord is simply going to punk the prince, as the prince is still going to be T5 without EW and a 5++. 1 wound is all it takes.

5 wound MC, not 6. And don't forget that there is chance of using psychic powers before hand. Not as good as normal but still decent shot of grabbing Warp Speed, Iron Arm and one of the better Slaanesh powers, which can be aided by using a Spell familiar. A combat familiar can add a few more attacks for extra help and Not to mention the Hammer of Wrath hit could have a slim chance to deal damage. And that you're assuming no one gets the charge, which, let's face it, will be the DP. With wings he can dictate the charging.

Add on a Gift of Mutation for flavouring. Might get something good, might no but either way he's still well cheaper than the Swarmlord's unit.

Personally, I'd take the odds. A little risk goes a long way.

**reaverX**

With 4 rolls on biomancy not only will he be on average T8/EW but will either also have FnP and IWND or get +d3 attacks and int with fleet.

Just stay away.

**MarkyMark**

Well iirc he is not mastery level 3 so he may have those powers but they all wont be active at the same time (ml 2 isnt he?), so will have to choose between each one. But endurance is better if it i cast on him, by say a zoan or tervigon. In a ideal situation these units may get the charge off but if I was playing nids I'd have a nice screen of gants to go around swarmy therefore I can chose who and what to charge rather then who charges me

**Corollax**

Super Ready wrote:
Plaguebearers are more survivable thanks to higher Toughness (ok, not so relevant here, but still) but also because you can give them a Herald to bring their old FNP back.

How does ANY of that matter against the Swarmlord?

**jifel**

Plaguebearers are the best tarpit you can use. Some softening fire can hopefully take out the guards, then try to Tarpit him. Plaguebearers are a bit more effective than Daemonettes. It'll take an average of 24 Daemonette attacks to wound Swarmy once, or 18 Plaguebearer attacks.

**Super Ready**

Blast it, forgot that the Plaguebearers wouldn't get FNP. Ok... 40 Daemonettes it is then!! :p

**Corollax**

jifel wrote:
Plaguebearers are the best tarpit you can use. Some softening fire can hopefully take out the guards, then try to Tarpit him. Plaguebearers are a bit more effective than Daemonettes. It'll take an average of 24 Daemonette attacks to wound Swarmy once, or 18 Plaguebearer attacks.

Sure, if you want to completely ignore the fact that Daemonettes get twice as many attacks...

**Dundas**

I actually don't think the demon codex has anything you could effectively tarpit the Swarmlord plus three tyrant guard with for any length of time. However, if you're not trying to kill him the Codex does have a lot of fast moving units which will be able to just avoid him.

If you are getting into combat I think you need to look at things that deal maximum damage as quickly as possible, as in any fight lasting more than a round or two the demons will lose. I still vote for a couple of demon princes maxxed out for doing damage as the best bet.

**Zande4**

Too many people making this mistake so I'm going to be a TFG for a second. It's Tyrant Guard********* Hive Guard are the shooty ones that blow up your measly tanks.

**McNinja**

Sasori wrote:

1. As been discussed, If the Swarmlord Nabs Iron Arm (80% chance) This won't work.

2. Bloodcrushers go after the Swarmlord, and For every failed Invul, is a dead Bloodcrusher. They also go after him. not a good choice.

3. Seekers could maybe work, I'd have to run the numbers.

4. You can't take FNP against the Swarmlords attacks, as they cause instant death.

5. You would have to kill him that turn, as LD 9 and SITW means you're not passing another psychic test. This also assumes that the Swarmlord doesn't have Iron arm himself, which is unlikely.

1: Skarbrand has Fleshbane at AP2 and I10.
2: Totally neglected the fact that BC's are I4. They would definitely get facerolled.
3: I do think they're the best bet, especially with a Herald or two, one with the +5 Int Locus and the other with the re-roll to-hit and force-challenge locus. Actually, the force challege locus could force the SL out of combat for a round, at least while the rest of the seekers kill off the Guard.
4: Again, I totally forgot.

I really do think the Daemons codex has several options:
1- Skarbrand. Fleshbane, AP2, Rage, Rampage, etc... this guy is also cheaper than the SL.
2- Skulltaker. EW, AP3, and on a juggernaut is S6.
3- Seekers. Full unit with herald.
4- Soul Grinder with Phlegm. Probably more than one.
5- The Changeling. What? The Swarmlord is WS3, W2, and I3 now?
6- Fiends+BC's= Int1 SL with the BC's hitting first. Combo assault. BC's sarg with Greater Etherblade for better wounding.

**Dundas**

Oh, and to go back to one of the original questions about the doom, I just saw on the tyranid FAQ that you can get cover saves from it's life leach thing? In which case, Plaguebearers are ideal, cos they'll get a 4+ cover save, and if you put a herald in, a FNP as well, meaning they should hardly take any wounds?