Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 adamsouza wrote:
Coming from someone who used to play Battletech on a gridless tabletop, I don't see there being much of an obstacle playing this new game without the board.

The important thing will be if the advancement, and campaign, rules make it a worthy Necromunda successor.

The hang up here is simply players having to make up their own rules for movement and such. I'd prefer it be apart of the core game already

adamsouza wrote:Coming from someone who used to play Battletech on a gridless tabletop, I don't see there being much of an obstacle playing this new game without the board.
The important thing will be if the advancement, and campaign, rules make it a worthy Necromunda successor.

This is a possibility I hadn't considered. There is fair chance that the rules for Deadzone will be detailed enough to translate to gridless play. Alot will depend on the rules. Technically anything can be moved from Gridless to Gridded and visa-versa, but if there's too much houseruling required, then alot of folks just won't bother. BT is an example where almost nothing has to change, but not all rulesets are so friendly.

Dysartes wrote:

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Question for those that remember- how were the rules of Necromunda compared to 40k at the time? Similar? Vastly different?

They shared the core mechanics of 2nd edition 40k, but Necromunda went a bit deeper in terms of equipment - that's before injuries, skills, etc, came into play. The stat spread for a human in Necromunda mostly mirrored what you could get in the Imperial Guard at the time, IIRC.

That's exactly it, and IIRC, there was an number by which you could multiply the points cost of almost anything in 2nd edition 40k, and come up with a value for Necromunda. Of course most of those kind of imports would drastically change the game balance, but with identical statlines and range bands, 2nd Edition still has alot to offer the Necromunda player.

If you ask for alternate gridless rules during the Ks, there's a good chance that it will happen - Loka had a ton of new optional rules added over the course of the KS.

Well, if they ditch igougo, Mantic will have made progress.

I think the coolest bits about Necromunda were the campaign system and sense of progression - of 'levelling' your gangers (and the way that it tapped into the 'nurturing' aspect of the human psyche, that some MMOs have also carried so well) and creating a narrative of sorts as you go along. That, and less of a level of abstraction (being able to hide, being wounded rather than just insta-removed etc.) than the 40k game helped you feel far more of a connection with what was taking place on the tabletop.

People can say that they just like a simple 24", roll to go first blastathon won by whoever has something left on the board, but I think it's telling that Necromunda (and really by extension 2nd edition) has reached an almost religion-like reverence even after all of these years. You could probably say the same about Mordheim for that matter.

So, I think if Deadzone can tap into an element of those narrative and nurturing-like components of game design, it has the potential to be massively successful.

 Pacific wrote:
I think the coolest bits about Necromunda were the campaign system and sense of progression - of 'levelling' your gangers (and the way that it tapped into the 'nurturing' aspect of the human psyche, that some MMOs have also carried so well) and creating a narrative of sorts as you go along. That, and less of a level of abstraction (being able to hide, being wounded rather than just insta-removed etc.) than the 40k game helped you feel far more of a connection with what was taking place on the tabletop.

People can say that they just like a simple 24", roll to go first blastathon won by whoever has something left on the board, but I think it's telling that Necromunda (and really by extension 2nd edition) has reached an almost religion-like reverence even after all of these years. You could probably say the same about Mordheim for that matter.

So, I think if Deadzone can tap into an element of those narrative and nurturing-like components of game design, it has the potential to be massively successful.

I'm with you there - I would LOVE for 40K to get rid of the "roll to go first blastathon won by whoever has something left on the board" mechanic...

We'll have to make sure that we all ask for 'gridless' rules in the Kickstarter comments section once this thing goes live...

Who knows? Maybe the gridded rules will work really well. Abstacted movement and positioning has worked rather well in many games (the idea that your squad/unit is in an area, or cloud, simplifies tactical movement and reduces line of sight problems) so perhaps there's a bunch of really awesome mechanics that will make it really fun and tactically rewarding to play. Dreadball exceeded my expectations... let's see what happens in a few days and if they release rules and such.

Zond wrote:
Well, if they ditch igougo, Mantic will have made progress.

They already have in the main Warpath rules, alternate activation is how that plays.

 scarletsquig wrote:

They already have in the main Warpath rules, alternate activation is how that plays.

Oh good. After the Kings of War rules I was disappointed, but more fool me for kickstarting without doing my due research. I think I'm going to definitely need to see all the sculpts this time as well.

^ The rules are all free to download on the Mantic site:

http://www.manticgames.com/Hobby/Gaming.html

Highly recommend having a read through Warpath 2.0, it's an excellent set of rules that went through multiple rounds of public (and internet-based) playtesting.

That goes for anyone interested in this KS too, since all the models you get for deadzone will be directly usable in Warpath, too.

And of course, the terrain will be useful for 40k, Infinity or pretty much any sci-fi game. I've mentioned that a lot of people are interested in a terrain-only pledge, but if there isn't one on-launch, the best thing to do would be to send Mantic a message using the "Ask a question" button on kickstarter stating that you'll pledge if they have a terrain-only pledge level, how much if it you'd be looking to buy etc.

This being the internet, there is no way that this post won't be interpreted as snarky or confrontational, so I will start by saying that I intend neither.

That said, why are so many posters hoping that this game will be so similar to Necromunda? It' s not like Necromunda is no longer playable. The rules are still available for free online, and there are loads of companies that make minis that would work as gangers. I don't see any reason for Mantic to reinvent that particular wheel.

I like Thornton's work, and I would love a 3-D (as opposed to tile-based) skirmish game that will fit on the dinner table and then back in a box when it's finished. If only I hand't spent so much on Myth...

 JoshInJapan wrote:

That said, why are so many posters hoping that this game will be so similar to Necromunda? It' s not like Necromunda is no longer playable. The rules are still available for free online, and there are loads of companies that make minis that would work as gangers. I don't see any reason for Mantic to reinvent that particular wheel.

For me personally, it's because I'm hoping for a more balanced, streamlined version of Necromunda. WHFB is playable, but imo KoW has made a far better game based on WHFB, which is exactly what I'm hoping for from Deadzone

 JoshInJapan wrote:
This being the internet, there is no way that this post won't be interpreted as snarky or confrontational, so I will start by saying that I intend neither.

That said, why are so many posters hoping that this game will be so similar to Necromunda? It' s not like Necromunda is no longer playable. The rules are still available for free online, and there are loads of companies that make minis that would work as gangers. I don't see any reason for Mantic to reinvent that particular wheel.

I like Thornton's work, and I would love a 3-D (as opposed to tile-based) skirmish game that will fit on the dinner table and then back in a box when it's finished. If only I hand't spent so much on Myth...

It's the core play of Necromunda many of us are looking for. Fresh backstory, units, weapons, dynamics, maybe even some rules, and a tweaked system to keep things fresh are very welcome. Of course we can play Necromunda. But I feel a lot of us feel Mantic is competent enough to make a great Necromunda alternative in a new environment, with all those things noted above, just like they made a great alternative to Blood Bowl via Dreadball.

Necromunda is also unsupported and no improvevments/adjustments are made outside of what players themselves choose to do, which are always controversial by and large, and always cater to the tastes of a few.

Out of Ultima came Everquest, and out of Everquest came WoW. Say what you want about the game (I myself don't play it) but Blizzard took proven concepts, improved upon them, and have made billions. It's not re-inventing the wheel. It's making a superior design. This isn't un-heard of.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I felt Pacific's comments really summed it up.

 darkPrince010 wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
^ That already exists, the game is called Warpath, it's on its second edition (which is a massively improved and really excellent set of rules) and the full colour 80-page rulebook with all the rules, background and army lists can be downloaded for free here:

http://www.manticgames.com/Hobby/Gaming.html

Yes and no. I think people are looking for something with the characteristics of Necromunda (individual, measured movement with multiple factions, xp, character growth and a campaign tree.

Humbly submitted for your perusal

Thank you for that. Just downloaded the files (and the Mordhaim/KoW ones as well). No idea when I'll get around to trying them out, as my hobby time is pretty much split between painting scenery, posting on Dakka and playing World of Warcraft lately..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 scarletsquig wrote:
If you ask for alternate gridless rules during the Ks, there's a good chance that it will happen - Loka had a ton of new optional rules added over the course of the KS.

I guess it depends on how "core" the gridded rules are viewed as by Jake, Ronnie, et al. On the surface, without having seen anything, they would seem to be pretty central to concepts of movement, range, line of sight, cover...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JoshInJapan wrote:
This being the internet, there is no way that this post won't be interpreted as snarky or confrontational, so I will start by saying that I intend neither.

That said, why are so many posters hoping that this game will be so similar to Necromunda? It' s not like Necromunda is no longer playable. The rules are still available for free online, and there are loads of companies that make minis that would work as gangers. I don't see any reason for Mantic to reinvent that particular wheel.

I like Thornton's work, and I would love a 3-D (as opposed to tile-based) skirmish game that will fit on the dinner table and then back in a box when it's finished. If only I hand't spent so much on Myth...

Completely understand your point. I guess I'd say it's the same reason we can have and enjoy both Dreadball and Blood Bowl, or Kings of War and Warhammer Fantasy Battle, or Call of Duty and Battlefield, or Project Pandora and Space Hulk, the Justice League and the Avengers, D&D and WFRP, Star Wars and Star Trek, Blondes and Brunettes...

Also, what's Myth?

[quote=Azazelx 516236 5542835 ecb1a680d48e4c04b8966e08da7613ef.png

Completely understand your point. I guess I'd say it's the same reason we can have and enjoy both Dreadball and Blood Bowl, or Kings of War and Warhammer Fantasy Battle, or Call of Duty and Battlefield, or Project Pandora and Space Hulk, the Justice League and the Avengers, D&D and WFRP, Star Wars and Star Trek, Blondes and Brunettes...

Also, what's Myth?

 JoshInJapan wrote:
This being the internet, there is no way that this post won't be interpreted as snarky or confrontational, so I will start by saying that I intend neither.

That said, why are so many posters hoping that this game will be so similar to Necromunda? It' s not like Necromunda is no longer playable. The rules are still available for free online, and there are loads of companies that make minis that would work as gangers. I don't see any reason for Mantic to reinvent that particular wheel.

I like Thornton's work, and I would love a 3-D (as opposed to tile-based) skirmish game that will fit on the dinner table and then back in a box when it's finished. If only I hand't spent so much on Myth...

For me, personally, it is because, while fun, Necromunda is really, really (really, REEEEEEEALLY) kind of broken. I mean, that is kind of expected. That many random tables and umpteen abilities sharing the same design space is likely to cause a wide balance gap between players with high degrees of system mastery and those without. But for people who have played Necromunda for a while it starts feeling like a bit of a trap. Whenever a new player asks tactical questions online they are bombarded with the holy writ of what thou shall and shall not do in Necromunda. Because the break points are so well understood now that many of us have kind of played it all out. From that point there is only house rules.

A modern take on the team/gang management skirmish game with an eye toward mitigating the balance issues a lot of other ones have fallen in to would be great. It was kind of what I was hoping for out of Heavy Gear Arena, but that had its own issues.

So I am going to be sticking around to see if this does the small-skirmish pseudo-RPG thing well. I don't need a new Necromunda, but something in a similar gameplay style would be nice.

That said, I am starting to waiver in my resolve a bit right now as a bunch of other equally awesome things start springing up around me. But I remember how awesome the last few Mantic Kickstarters were and I am willing to give this one a look, especially since I actually have a few hundred to pump in to it.

 Ronin_eX wrote:

A modern take on the team/gang management skirmish game with an eye toward mitigating the balance issues a lot of other ones have fallen in to would be great. It was kind of what I was hoping for out of Heavy Gear Arena, but that had its own issues.

So I am going to be sticking around to see if this does the small-skirmish pseudo-RPG thing well. I don't need a new Necromunda, but something in a similar gameplay style would be nice.

This is why I'm looking forward to Deadzone, as I think a fan revision of Necromunda to balance it would result in something akin to the Coreheim revision of Mordheim, and really lose a great deal of flavor of the original source material.

 Breotan wrote:
As interesting as this is, I really wish they'd fullfill outstanding Kickstarter projects before starting new ones.

A company that has multiple projects is a red flag for me.

If a company has multiple projects, one cock-up in one project can throw off the timing in another. It doesn't matter if the projects are KickStarter, new clients, whatever. The additional projects a company undertakes bring in additional money and can share resources, but can also take away them and time from existing ones. For small companies, in the shipment phase of a KickStarter, it's possible for the entire company to help the shipping department pack boxes. Likewise, if one KickStarter is failing, it's tempting to take away funds from another one. I've also noticed that "big name" game companies will only have one KickStarter project, although it's usually a *big* one.

OTOH, If you want to see how Mantic is doing with its previous KS, the comments are freely available. I skimmed them, and I don't see the torches and pitchforks I've seen for other companies with multiple delayed projects.

Unlike your typical pre-order, it really is important that you research how well a company can complete its projects, depending on how much money you will be pledging. However, I attended a seminar with a venture capitalist and he even said that they never know all the information they need to know before investing in a company. Myself, had I used the criteria I use today with KickStarter, I would not have pledged for two projects that are still delayed.

Now, you'll excuse me while I throw money at those dungeon tiles.

Deleted to avoid de-railment.

 JoshInJapan wrote:

Myth:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1700755582/myth-0?ref=live

Hm. Looks like I missed it (and yeah, I now see the 8-page thread). Shame, it seems the sort of thing I might have been likely to back. There's just so many gaming KS these days that I glaze/skip over most of the new ones, so even worthy ones get ignored.

ced1106 wrote:
OTOH, If you want to see how Mantic is doing with its previous KS, the comments are freely available. I skimmed them, and I don't see the torches and pitchforks I've seen for other companies with multiple delayed projects.

Unlike your typical pre-order, it really is important that you research how well a company can complete its projects, depending on how much money you will be pledging. However, I attended a seminar with a venture capitalist and he even said that they never know all the information they need to know before investing in a company. Myself, had I used the criteria I use today with KickStarter, I would not have pledged for two projects that are still delayed.

Yes, and for the record, so people don't have to do their own research on Mantic:

- The first Kings of War KS shipment shipped on time.
- The second Kings of War KS shipment is on track to ship on time, everything is coming on the slow boat back from China. Unless it sinks (has happened before to Mantic!), it'll be fine.
- The first Dreadball KS shipment shipped on time.
- The second Dreadball KS shipment shipped on time (all going out of the door today!).
- The third Dreadball KS shipment is on track, all of the minis for it are currently in tooling.


In the case of both of those there are one or two models/units that have slipped to a later shipment, but nothing major.

As far as Kickstarters go, they have one of the best track records of any wargaming company, most of which never hit their ship deadlines. If there's a few models that aren't ready in time, instead of delaying shipment, Mantic simply sends out the 90% of stuff that they do have completed and then create an extra shipment later (at their own expense) to get the rest of it delivered.

One more day to go - do we know what time it is starting tomorrow, or is that in the lap of the KS gods?

Edit: Oops, wrong kickstarter thread.

^ Restic for the immortal guard.

One more day to go - do we know what time it is starting tomorrow, or is that in the lap of the KS gods?

12:30pm GMT, (so 1:30pm BST). Deduct 5-8 hours from that if you're in the US, so 4:30am to 7:30am depending on time zone. For US backers, getting the "early bird" pledges will really quite literally mean being an early bird!

Mantic has a countdown website here:

http://www.deadzonethegame.com/

.. and I'll be updating the title of this thread with an hourly countdown tomorrow morning.

Mantic started a Reddit Q&A for DeadZone

http://www.reddit.com/r/wargaming/comments/1d30vl/afternoon_reddit_were_launching_our_new/

JudgeDoug asks the most important question so far on Reddit, now just waiting on the answer:

[–]judgedoug 0 points1 point2 points 1 minute ago

Will the 3D plastic terrain be available as an add-on purchase? I'd like to get Deadzone but honestly I'd like to get about a dozen extra sets of terrain as well.

[–]manticgames[S] 0 points1 point2 points 12 minutes ago

I think we'd be crazy not to make it available as an add-on!


Yay, lets hope it's got a great price too!

My account is spazzing. Someone ask about gridless rules and larger then 2 x 2 games in ya can please!

 Salacious Greed wrote:
JudgeDoug asks the most important question so far on Reddit, now just waiting on the answer:

[–]judgedoug 0 points1 point2 points 1 minute ago

Will the 3D plastic terrain be available as an add-on purchase? I'd like to get Deadzone but honestly I'd like to get about a dozen extra sets of terrain as well.

You're welcome!
Reply:
[–]manticgames[S] 1 point 6 seconds ago

I think we'd be crazy not to make it available as an add-on!

That's good news. Hopefully it will be reasonably priced. Buying everything for dreadball you need to play costs the same without teams as the box set does with 2 10-man teams. So make sure you do some addition before you buy things piece-meal.

But then again, this is kickstarter and may very well be offered at a crazy deal for the terrain. Here's hopin'!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You Rock judgedoug!!!

Mantic via Reddit wrote:Playtesting is ongoing - we've spent a lot of time getting the rules to an alpha stage, and we'll be releasing them as a free download during the early stages of the Kickstarter. We're really keen to playtest as much as we can - DreadBall only worked as well as it did because we tested it so much! As such, we'll be listening to feedback on the alpha rules and taking suggestions into consideration.

As to what sets it apart, it straddles the middle ground between wargame and board game, with simple rules (loosely based around the system we used for DreadBall) and a 3D gaming area.

The Kickstarter page will show more detail - hope that's enough for today