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I just don't think that a fully fledged wargame of the scope of Warhammer 40K is a good fit for Kickstarter. It's just too huge.

So the smart way of building your "sci-fi" wargaming universe IMO is the way Mantic is building it. An all-out-board game like DreadBall to wet people's appetite. A near-board-game like Deadzone to launch terrain and expand the miniature range. Perhaps a GorkaMorka-style game to introduce a few vehicle kits. Perhaps even a pen-and-paper-RPG thrown in a-la Malifaux.

Step-by-step you'll be building something approaching the depth of a "full wargame" without "overloading" the limits of the Kickstarter-format.

try robotech in it's last week.

 Alpharius wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Basically, I'll stay in for now, and if I drop down dramatically it'll be in the final 48 hours, but as the KS stands right now I'd pull money out before I added anymore in.

Whew!

I was getting worried there for a bit!

I threw that in just for you, HMBC and RiTides. On a serious note, I may end up changing my pledge significantly to a terrain one with a few specific models if the value there increases and the figures don't pan out/no trades/etc.

 Azazelx wrote:

Minis I'm not even interested in painting don't really add value to me. Let's see what the next 2 weeks brings, and if they decide to become a bit more flexible. I can't see them changing it up now, but they might at the 11th hour.

All kidding aside, I agree with you 100% on this...

 Zweischneid wrote:
I just don't think that a fully fledged wargame of the scope of Warhammer 40K is a good fit for Kickstarter. It's just too huge.

So the smart way of building your "sci-fi" wargaming universe IMO is the way Mantic is building it. An all-out-board game like DreadBall to wet people's appetite. A near-board-game like Deadzone to launch terrain and expand the miniature range. Perhaps a GorkaMorka-style game to introduce a few vehicle kits. Perhaps even a pen-and-paper-RPG thrown in a-la Malifaux.

Step-by-step you'll be building something approaching the depth of a "full wargame" without "overloading" the limits of the Kickstarter-format.

Mantic already used KS to fill out and relaunch an underdeveloped wargame they had with the KoW kickstarter. Sounds like the focus for Warpath is likely to be plastics and vehicles, so there's unlikely to be the same volume of development, but it's entirely possible.

/shrug

Robotech is a highly successful Kickstarter, no doubt. The game will clearly have fans, even clubs, etc... . But similar to Wild West Exodus or Relic Knights, etc..., I don't see it gaining the kind of "pick-up-games-in-your-next-door-FLGS" kind of traction.

I could be wrong though.

@EarthDragon

Awfully dismissive of what's been, from what I can tell, very candid and well thought out points. I'm not calling doom and gloom. I'm merely pointing out where it currently stands and I've noted that unless there is a shift, and there might be, that my pledge likely won't finish as high as it is now.

As for my statement being theory craft it's theory craft based on being in an area of the US that's one of the largest(percentage to population) and most active gaming communities in the country. I live where FFG is based and I'm pretty much in a gaming mecca. That said Dust Tactics is an excellent comparison, and guess how much that get played even here, where FFG is located and can push it.

I'm not saying they won't keep it around, I'm saying it's not filling a new niche. It's adding to an existing one. One that many gamers already have their itch scratched in. I can see it as an intro game to Warpath and honestly that's how they should use it when it's done in my opinion. But I don't think this is going to be another Dreadball (which I'll also add isn't played or really discussed in my neck of the woods). Granted a part of that is that Mantic isn't carried by any local store due to the cannibalization of their other higher costed lines.

@eilif - Honestly, its Mantics refusal to post multiple stretch goals. If, instead, they had posted "450k terrain options, 460k add-on mini, 475k something with freebie" it would have been received better. It's their own sense of mystery that's hurting retention.

The Orx didn't help

That's the one bit of mismanagement I think Mantic has played though.

 Black Nexus wrote:

dreadball was such a success they won't be droppping that, imagine the same with deadzone.

I hope you're right. I see alot of statements like this, but the fact is that Mantic is far too young a company to make any real predictions about whether and how long they will keep a given game around.

The comparison is often made of Deadzone and Necromunda. Consider the fact that Necromunda was first introduced in 1995 and the last edition of the game was produced in 2003, with -IIRC) the last official product being released a couple years later. That's about a 10 year period of support (in various forms) for a game, from a 37 year old company.

Then consider the fact that Mantic games products of any kind have only been in production since 2009 (less than 5 years) and it becomes clear that any statements about the longevity of a given Mantic game or line are pure speculation at this point.

 Zweischneid wrote:
I

So the smart way of building your "sci-fi" wargaming universe IMO is the way Mantic is building it. An all-out-board game like DreadBall to wet people's appetite. A near-board-game like Deadzone to launch terrain and expand the miniature range. Perhaps a GorkaMorka-style game to introduce a few vehicle kits. Perhaps even a pen-and-paper-RPG thrown in a-la Malifaux.

Ronnie pretty much said this in the seminar. Step by step I feel is the best way and something I would like to eco. Introduce people to Mantic VIA the fantastic game and miniatures (IMO) of Dreadball. Expand the universe to skirmish lvl whilst building the support and background brought and built upon from the previous two games then when it's at a critical mass then release your pierce de la resistance for maximum effect.

 Eilif wrote:

 Black Nexus wrote:

dreadball was such a success they won't be droppping that, imagine the same with deadzone.

I hope you're right. I see alot of statements like this, but the fact is that Mantic is far too young a company to make any real predictions about whether and how long they will keep a given game around.

The comparison is often made of Deadzone and Necromunda. Consider the fact that Necromunda was first introduced in 1995 and the last edition of the game was produced in 2003, with -IIRC) the last official product being released a couple years later. That's about a 10 year period of support (in various forms) for a game, from a 37 year old company.

Then consider the fact that Mantic games products of any kind have only been in production since 2009 (less than 5 years) and it becomes clear that any statements about the longevity of a given Mantic game or line are pure speculation at this point.

But Games Workshop clearly is the outlier case.

Mantic Games seems to be doing pretty good by most standards of the industry (remember Confrontation? Ex Illis?)

 Azazelx wrote:


I threw that in just for you, HMBC and RiTides. On a serious note, I may end up changing my pledge significantly to a terrain one with a few specific models if the value there increases and the figures don't pan out/no trades/etc.

I wouldn't hope for the ability to trade stuff out. On the BGG forum I got told:

Hi guys,

We're hearing a lot of strong feedback about the Orx, but please do remember that these were work-in-progress figures that were put in the cabinet at the open day to give people a sneak peek. They're not the finished article! We'll be taking all of your feedback into account and re-working the Orx accordingly. We'll get some better pictures (in decent lighting!) up once they're a bit closer to being finished.

As for the Goblin sniper... well, we're getting really mixed viewpoints. Of course, with two variant models, people could easily switch out the "victory dance" pose and have two of the aiming Goblin.

Thanks for the feedback, though. Much appreciated!

James
Mantic Games

I thought that was a good indicator and asked:

James, Are you guys going to allow folks to switch out figures like this? Right now several of those poses end up being useless to me, making the Orx (25% of the factions I get at my pledge level) useless. It isn't the lighting, it is the poses and silly/funny styling that totally ruin them for me. Different lighting is not going to fix that.

and he replied:

Sorry, I wasn't very clear there. The faction starter will contain one of each sniper, but as some people are keen and others aren't, you could swap with someone else and get two of the same. Alternatively, with the force creation rules, you might only want one sniper in your force.

And yes, as I said, we are re-working the models. I wasn't trying to say that the lighting was to blame, just that the actual photos we release will look a lot nicer! These models haven't come out as we intended them to, so we're going to re-work the Orx (change the poses, change some of the detail, etc) based on the feedback we've received.

Hope that's a bit clearer!

So, I don't expect Mantic to allow trades/swapping within the KickStarter pledges...

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

 Black Nexus wrote:

dreadball was such a success they won't be droppping that, imagine the same with deadzone.

I hope you're right. I see alot of statements like this, but the fact is that Mantic is far too young a company to make any real predictions about whether and how long they will keep a given game around.

The comparison is often made of Deadzone and Necromunda. Consider the fact that Necromunda was first introduced in 1995 and the last edition of the game was produced in 2003, with -IIRC) the last official product being released a couple years later. That's about a 10 year period of support (in various forms) for a game, from a 37 year old company.

Then consider the fact that Mantic games products of any kind have only been in production since 2009 (less than 5 years) and it becomes clear that any statements about the longevity of a given Mantic game or line are pure speculation at this point.

But Games Workshop clearly is the outlier case.

Mantic Games seems to be doing pretty good by most standards of the industry (remember Confrontation? Ex Illis?)

I also can't stress enough that with viable options for their beloved GW specialty games, those gamers will be prone to move over to something that is being supported currently.

Sorry, I wasn't very clear there. The faction starter will contain one of each sniper, but as some people are keen and others aren't, you could swap with someone else and get two of the same. Alternatively, with the force creation rules, you might only want one sniper in your force.

And yes, as I said, we are re-working the models. I wasn't trying to say that the lighting was to blame, just that the actual photos we release will look a lot nicer! These models haven't come out as we intended them to, so we're going to re-work the Orx (change the poses, change some of the detail, etc) based on the feedback we've received.

Hope that's a bit clearer!

Well, that sounds like good news for the people that don't like the current designs. As I said, I don't really care one way or the other, but I'm glad they're taking public reaction into consideration. Imagine if they waited until the figures were already cast and ready for production to post photos. Now, I know it wouldn't happen, but it would be kind of neat if they released both the goofy Orx and more realistic ones that're in-line with the artwork. That way they could cover botht he people who like their comical GW orcs and people who like their gritty Orx. Maybe make the goofy ones a KS exclusive starter add-on option?

After trying to have a constructive conversation regarding swapping factions out at the Assualt Team level + (even if they kept the first 4 factions the same) I have given up. I have also reduced my pledge after the positive comments I received.

 Zweischneid wrote:

...Then consider the fact that Mantic games products of any kind have only been in production since 2009 (less than 5 years) and it becomes clear that any statements about the longevity of a given Mantic game or line are pure speculation at this point.

But Games Workshop clearly is the outlier case.

Mantic Games seems to be doing pretty good by most standards of the industry (remember Confrontation? Ex Illis?)

Funny that you mention Confrontation. It did die a very sad death, but the Rackham company lasted 12 years, whereas Mantic is only 5 years old. Mantic is doing great by game company standards, but by those same standards, it's still a baby with a very short track record.

Not trying to dis Mantic (I've got some Warpath Forgefathers and am supporting Deadzone too), just wanting to add a bit of perspective.

It's kind of ironic, but Mantic is starting to resemble the GW of 15 years ago or so.. full of vitality and humour, willing to bring a variety of new games to the market, engage with the fans and still that sense of optimism around them.

It will be interesting to see how things go over the next few years.. .

Almost $460,000.. please be the new starter races!

Earth Dragon wrote:

I also can't stress enough that with viable options for their beloved GW specialty games, those gamers will be prone to move over to something that is being supported currently.

BloodBowl and Necromunda have rules easily available online, and can sub in any number of proxy miniatures (many far better than anything GW ever put out!) Neither has been supported properly in ages, so I don't really see Necro or BB gamers who are still playing them at this point changing over. They might play something else as well (which I'm sure most already do), but I don't see them "leaving" Necro or BB in droves for DB or DZ.

 Azazelx wrote:

Earth Dragon wrote:

I also can't stress enough that with viable options for their beloved GW specialty games, those gamers will be prone to move over to something that is being supported currently.

BloodBowl and Necromunda have rules easily available online, and can sub in any number of proxy miniatures (many far better than anything GW ever put out!) Neither has been supported properly in ages, so I don't really see Necro or BB gamers who are still playing them at this point changing over. They might play something else as well (which I'm sure most already do), but I don't see them "leaving" Necro or BB in droves for DB or DZ.

I've seen a number of people who had casually played bloodbowl now and then when leagues came that have now picked up dread ball. I know there are still necro players, but I haven't actually seen anyone who does in the past 5 years. It's pretty obvious that it's a much smaller market than bloodbowl (difficulty finding figures and the need to convert are two barriers to entry I found). I actually think Deadzone is a much better setting to run a skirmish game in - if GW had done a skirmish level game which shared models with 40k, it would have been much more popular than necromunda.

Deleted duplicate

decker_cky wrote:

I've seen a number of people who had casually played bloodbowl now and then when leagues came that have now picked up dread ball. I know there are still necro players, but I haven't actually seen anyone who does in the past 5 years. It's pretty obvious that it's a much smaller market than bloodbowl (difficulty finding figures and the need to convert are two barriers to entry I found). I actually think Deadzone is a much better setting to run a skirmish game in - if GW had done a skirmish level game which shared models with 40k, it would have been much more popular than necromunda.

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.
What you nor I "see" in our limited areas means all that much in the global scheme of things, particularly given the fact that Necromunda isn't all that much of an "in-store" game these days, but it's pretty clearly still going pretty strongly today (as are Epic, Mordheim, etc). I also was quite specific in saying that BB players will also try DB, but that it's not an either/or situation. Same deal with DeadZone, though it seems to have a bit of a Dust Tactics vibe going as well. The scenery working well for Necromunda is also learly a choice, and a smart one at that. Setting up a Necromunda force in 2013 really comes down to 2 steps:
1) Choose a Gang template
2) Find figures you like.
It's not like there's any pressure to use official GW miniatures, and there's a huge range of appropriate proxies from pretty much everyone who makes sci-fi adventurers/infantry/miniatures, ranging from direct clones of the GW styles to using whatever you think looks cool.

Thank you CptJake, this quote is my favorite bit

"These models haven't come out as we intended them to, so we're going to re-work the Orx (change the poses, change some of the detail, etc) based on the feedback we've received. "

Which restores some faith. I will reserve final judgment if they do indeed go back to re-work the Orx.

Update should be incoming shortly

 judgedoug wrote:
Thank you CptJake, this quote is my favorite bit

"These models haven't come out as we intended them to, so we're going to re-work the Orx (change the poses, change some of the detail, etc) based on the feedback we've received. "

Which restores some faith. I will reserve final judgment if they do indeed go back to re-work the Orx.

This, and thank you for sharing that tidbit CptJake. This is more the Mantic I've come to expect after watching them. They still might not make them look attractive enough to me, but at least they didn't just blaze ahead.

I'm hopeful too, but as a great NCO I knew used to remind me, "Hope isn't a method". We'll see. It seems they are happy with 'silly orx' and will likely maintain that theme even if some of the sculpts are redone. I was hoping for Brutal Warmonger Orx and silly/fun/happy just doesn't cut it for me. When you look at the Dreadball big Orxs which just look like they are out to hammer their opponents, I was hoping for Orx with a similar philosophy towards war. Obviously that is just MY opinion, and won't be valid for others, but for ME it does make that faction next to useless which lowers my perception of value for the pledge I am making right now.

Not my picture but this guy looks serious, and I hoped the Deadzone Orx would too:

Don't say that in the comments CptJake. Some people there are vigorously shoot down anything that isn't their vision of the project. It's pretty silly that some of them are actively against the project making more money...

Got a fair bit of negative feedback today in the comments, id suggested some one faction bundle deals for people looking a dz as a starting point for warpath.

Should be a new update shortly, hopefully improve the mood

460k hit, but no word yet on the next goal...

 judgedoug wrote:
Thank you CptJake, this quote is my favorite bit

"These models haven't come out as we intended them to, so we're going to re-work the Orx (change the poses, change some of the detail, etc) based on the feedback we've received. "

Which restores some faith. I will reserve final judgment if they do indeed go back to re-work the Orx.

Didn't they say the same thing about the Judwan and some of their KOW sculpts, all of which stayed unchanged? How many times have they acutally changed a model between green and release due to feedback?

Well the word was give us 10 minutes this is big and we must do it right.

That was 16 mins ago, 2 mins ago he said he is still uploading pics, so I guess in 10-20 more minutes.

Earth Dragon wrote:

I also can't stress enough that with viable options for their beloved GW specialty games, those gamers will be prone to move over to something that is being supported currently

Though technically sold until recently, Necromunda hasn't really been supported or grown for the better part of a decade. If those gamers had wanted a similar, new game, they would have already moved on to Infinity or Dark Age, or Rezolution. etc....

This whole Deadzone as Necromunda replacement is way over blown. It's a miniatures/board game that will have to attract players on it's own merits. Something I think it will do well.

Interestingly, the style of Deadzone seems to have alot more in common with Inifinity than with anything GW has done. Despite the inclusion of space orks, the overall look is much more anime than grimdark.