Alfndrate wrote:
I've got a buddy from high school that's FTM (was identifying as a girl up until he was 20). Atm he's getting monthly Testosterone shots, and while I don't understand it*, he's saving up his pennies for gender reassignment surgery. He's definitely happier identifying as a male than he was as a girl, and it actually saddens me that this is even being considered as a law...

*sigh* It was humorous when he was learning to pee standing up... but that'd be a story for him to tell...

Also, what happens if you're a dad and you're out with your toddler daughter and you've got to change her diaper. Can you get jail time since you're responsible for her, and you took her into a men's room to change her diaper?

* -

Spoiler:

I'm spoilering this because I wanted to include in my post, about my thought process on all of this. For the most part, when thinking about my buddy going through all of this, I was at first initially weirded out because it didn't make sense to me. I mean, we've been friends since Sophmore year of high school, though we had known each other for a long time. He was was starting his transition just before he left to study abroad (he felt it was a good idea to do that so it wouldn't seem odd if he did it while he was overseas). At first it was just simple things like dressing like a guy, cutting his hair short, and attempting to act like a guy. And after he came back he started to really think of a name change, and started getting hormone shots. I wasn't still 100% comfortable with everything, but at the same time we'd been friends for awhile and nothing else really changed about him in how we hung out, etc... I can never understand his reasoning behind wanting to do it, because I've never had the thoughts and the feelings he's had, but at the same time I get it, and it's sad to see people discriminating against people just because they're different.

 Frazzled wrote:

but the lack of cleanliness in boys' bathrooms will make this a far scarier experience...

 Frazzled wrote:
Stalls are the solution no? Dress like a girl, go there in the girls' restroom. Dress like a boy go there in the boys' restroom (but the lack of cleanliness in boys' bathrooms will make this a far scarier experience...). Showers are the only major place of concern no, and there you're just kind of fethed.

The only real issue I have here is sports actually. If you're born a guy but want to be a gal, cool as long as I don't have to pay for it. But you still have that inherent disposition to greater muscle strength, and that presents a potential advantage if you then play many sports as a woman. Having said that I don't really care there either.
Maybe what I'm really trying to say is: Vote for Frazzled, he's too lazy to care.

The Observer has removed a controversial column by Julie Burchill, in which she attacked transgender people, from the internet, and editor John Mulholland has published an apology, admitting that the newspaper "got it wrong".

Burchill, a freelance writer, wrote in an Observer column on Sunday that transgender people were "screaming mimis", "bed-wetters in bad wigs" and "dicks in chicks' clothing".

The column, published online on guardian.co.uk's Comment is Free website, has been taken down with the link now directed to a statement from Mulholland in which he apologises for the offence caused in what has become a "highly charged debate".

"We have decided to withdraw from publication the Julie Burchill comment piece 'Transsexuals should cut it out'," he said. "The piece was an attempt to explore contentious issues within what had become a highly-charged debate. The Observer is a paper which prides itself on ventilating difficult debates and airing challenging views. On this occasion we got it wrong and in light of the hurt and offence caused I apologise and have made the decision to withdraw the piece."

He said that the Observer readers' editor, Stephen Pritchard, will "report on these issues at greater length".

Burchill's piece was written in defence of her friend and fellow writer, Suzanne Moore, who attracted hostility on Twitter last week for suggesting in a New Statesman article that women were too often expected to look like "a Brazilian transsexual".

Late on Monday Burchill posted a comment on her Facebook profile – she has almost 1,900 "friends" – saying: "Just spoke to Suzanne and she isn't under the impression she's apologised AT ALL. Also a nice chat with the lovely editor of the Observer, John Mulholland. The piece is being taken down, fight fans!"

When asked by one of her Facebook friends if she was going to apologise, she said: "I've been apologising all day."

Lynne Featherstone, the Lib Dem MP and international development minister who formerly held the government's equalities brief, on Sunday took to Twitter to denounce Burchill and called for the Observer to sack her.

The online version of Burchill's column had attracted several thousands comments by Monday lunchtime, with the majority opposing the writer, while the argument on Twitter raged for and against her.

Guardian News & Media, publisher of the Guardian, Observer and the guardian.co.uk website network – including MediaGuardian – had earlier issued a statement saying it had asked the readers' editor to investigate the matter.

A government minister has called for Observer columnist Julie Burchill to be fired because of her column on Sunday in which she attacked transgender people.

Lynne Featherstone, the international development minister who was once equalities minister, took to Twitter to denounce Burchill – a freelance writer – for her "absolutely disgusting… rant against the transgender community". She described it as "a bigoted vomit" and called for The Observer to sack her.

Featherstone, a Lib-Dem MP, then suggested in another tweet that the paper's editor, John Mulholland, should be sacked too for publishing the column.

The online version of Burchill's column attracted more than 2,000 comments, with the majority opposing the writer, and the Twittersphere was deluged from yesterday morning onwards with people arguing for and against Burchill.

The heated debate prompted The Observer's readers' editor, Stephen Pritchard, to step in and announce that he will hold an inquiry into the matter. He wrote:

"As you might imagine, I have received many emails protesting about this piece this morning. Thank you to those who have written. I will be looking at this issue and will be replying to all in due course."

And Guardian News & Media also issued a statement. A spokeswoman said: "We acknowledge the strong reaction to Julie Burchill's piece published in The Observer. As indicated by Observer editor John Mulholland on Twitter, we are taking such reactions extremely seriously and we have asked our independent readers' editor to urgently investigate the matter."

Burchill's piece was written in defence of her friend and fellow writer, Suzanne Moore, who attracted hostility on Twitter for suggesting in a New Statesman article that women were too often expected to look like "a Brazilian transsexual". Moore then said she was quitting the social networking site because of the abuse she had received.

In her column, Burchill wrote of transgender people as "screaming mimis", "bed-wetters in bad wigs" and "dicks in chicks' clothing". She added that "the very vociferous transsexual lobby and their grim groupies" reminded her of "wretched inner-city kids who shoot another inner-city kid dead in a fast-food shop for not showing them enough 'respect'".

She also compared the attacks on Moore to "the Black and White Minstrels telling Usain Bolt how to run".

Observer readers responded by describing Burchill's attack on transgender people as "vile, "shameful" and "disgusting".

And a poll conducted among online readers of The Independent resulted in 90% deeming Burchill's article as offensive.

NB: Julie Burchill is a freelance contributor to The Observer rather than a staff member.

• The original article was amended on Monday 14 January 2013 to replace the word "transsexuals" with "transgender people"

During a heated exchange with twitter user @jonanamary, Moore defended her use of the word, before finally tweeting: “People can just feth off really. Cut their dicks off and be more feminist than me. Good for them.”

Responding to the row, Guardian columnist Julie Bindel tweeted @PinkNews: “Can those of us who hate bullying PLEASE do something about the trans cabal running a witch hunt everytime they get offended?

Bindel’s tweet quickly drew several critical remarks

 Alfndrate wrote:

There is a UFC fighter that has had gender reassignment surgery after puberty... She has the skeletal structure of a dude, the muscles, etc... and she wants to be allowed to fight other female UFC fighters.

 Rented Tritium wrote:
I'm actually really encouraged by the response in this thread. Dakkadakka isn't generally the most progressive place in the world and we're more or less in agreement on this.

Spoiler:

 Auxellion wrote:
I'm okay with this

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Auxellion wrote:
I'm okay with this

With the law or with Dakka being strangely human?

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Writing a newspaper opinion column for which you get sacked is the same as bringing an act of parliament if it allows"liberals" to be told to stand in the naughty corner along with "conservatives".

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Writing a newspaper opinion column for which you get sacked is the same as bringing an act of parliament if it allows"liberals" to be told to stand in the naughty corner along with "conservatives".

I'm just trying to show that this is an issue that both sides of the political spectrum grapple with, and not always successfully.

 Rented Tritium wrote:
I'm actually really encouraged by the response in this thread. Dakkadakka isn't generally the most progressive place in the world and we're more or less in agreement on this.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Rented Tritium wrote:
I'm actually really encouraged by the response in this thread. Dakkadakka isn't generally the most progressive place in the world and we're more or less in agreement on this.

It depends, the conservtives on dakka tend to not actually care about this stuff, They tend to be "Leave me be, you can do what you want with your life"

 Frazzled wrote:
Are you tired of kids, doog gooders, and politicians stepping on your lawn? If so, then we have a party for YOU!

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
When the organisation with the stated goal to "become the world's leading liberal voice." has a serious problem with the transgendered then it says more about society than just one part of the political spectrum.

That's what I was attempting to get at, it wasn't an attempt to compare the legislative and private spheres. Apologies for any confusion, I hope that's cleared up now.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The journalist was fired.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
You're right, showing that two distinct elements of society from opposite ends of the political spectrum have an issue with the transgendered doesn't reflect on social attitudes, gotcha

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The journalist was fired.

Really? I thought her article was removed and the paper tried to distance themselves from her (pointing out that she wasn't staff)

 Rented Tritium wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Are you tired of kids, doog gooders, and politicians stepping on your lawn? If so, then we have a party for YOU!

What's a doog gooder?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No, it does, but pretending that a freelance writer is the same as the representatives of a major political party pushing legislation is hardly the best way to point out that there's a society-wide issue when one side is disciplining "their own" and the other isn't.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No, it does, but pretending that a freelance writer is the same as the representatives of a major political party pushing legislation is hardly the best way to point out that there's a society-wide issue when one side is disciplining "their own" and the other isn't.

I'm sorry you misread my initial post and clarification. That was not my intention hence the conservative and liberal with "c"/"l" and not "C"/"L", or mentioning of political parties. Sorry that I can't make my position any clearer, if you can't accept what I've said and my clarifications then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Writing a newspaper opinion column for which you get sacked is the same as bringing an act of parliament if it allows"liberals" to be told to stand in the naughty corner along with "conservatives".

I'm just trying to show that this is an issue that both sides of the political spectrum grapple with, and not always successfully.

 Rented Tritium wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
So.... even if someone's had their surgery, and are in fact biologically male or female they'd have to go by their birth certificate still>

I honestly think the fight on trans issues is going to be even worse then gay/lesbian rights... it's a pretty difficult concept for a lot of people to wrap their heads around, I'll be the first to admit it's still a little beyond me...

It sounds like you're still way ahead of the rest of the population, though.

 azazel the cat wrote:
I've never understood what the problem was with European-style unisex bathrooms. Completely bypasses this problem.