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easysauce wrote:
why are you allowed to start with some of the model on the board already, in contrast to the rules saying you cannot do this? cite rules please

I'm not. At all. The pivoting is part of movement.

you need to pivot in such a way that the entire hull is off the board before it moves on

Citation needed. According to you as soon as a part of the model is on the board, it's an illegal move.

What happens if I start perpendicular to the board edge and move on? The nose of the Flyer is on the board by 1" and off the board by 10". Have I performed an illegal move or can I continue moving?

you guys are saying "yes a model must start entirely off the board"

then in the next breath saying "but a flyer can pivot, so it can start partially on the board"

No one is saying that. You don't understand.

Pivoting is part of movement. Pivoting happens prior to actually moving any distance. Do you agree with both of those statements?
A model arriving from Reserves starts it's movement directly next to the edge of the board, correct?
Is a model arriving from Reserves allowed to pivot?
Is a model arriving from Reserves then allowed to move after pivoting?

starting with part of the model on the board, breaks rules, regardless of method used to put part of the hull on the board (pivot, move, ect)

Read what you just wrote. Read it again.
You just said that even if you move onto the board you've broken rules.

a model with a 5" wingspan will have a 16degree limit of ingress (assuming minimum 18" move), since it MUST be at least 5" away from the table edge at the end of its move so that its hull is off the board,

5" wingspan means it's 5" from tip to tip. Meaning it must be more than 2.5" away from the board edge, not 5".


edit: Also, the , key is not the right way to end a sentence. And double spacing your posts makes them very hard to read.

rigeld2 wrote:

easysauce wrote:
a model with a 5" wingspan will have a 16degree limit of ingress (assuming minimum 18" move), since it MUST be at least 5" away from the table edge at the end of its move so that its hull is off the board,

5" wingspan means it's 5" from tip to tip. Meaning the center of the flyer it must be more than 2.5" away from the board edge, not 5".

Fixed that for you with the orange.

The wing tip can still be very close to the edge.

rigel, you are not reading properly, me saying a model with a 5" wing must end at least 5" away from the edge is right, any closer and the 5" wing is off the board

I am NOT saying the WING must be 5" from the edge at all, read carfully please

I am saying that the 5" wing must be on the board completely, and 5" of wing wont be on the board completely, if it only has 4" of board under it


chosing the facing of the model while it is off the board, does not give you permission to put part of the model on the board before it enters

otherwise I can pivot a landraider before it comes on, putting a corner on the table before I move and measure from the center point I pivoted around, as opposed to the corner thats already on the board and gain extra movement.

Right, thanks.

easysauce - you do understand that wings count as part of the hull, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

easysauce wrote:
rigel, you are not reading properly, me saying a model with a 5" wingspan must end at least 5" away from the edge is right, any closer and the 5" wing is off the board

I am NOT saying the WING must be 5" from the edge at all, read carfully please

I am saying that the 5" wing must be on the board completely, and 5" of wing wont be on the board completely, if it only has 4" of board under it

Then you're using the word wingspan incorrectly. It's wingtip to wingtip, not the length of one wing.

chosing the facing of the model while it is off the board, does not give you permission to put part of the model on the board before it enters

Pivoting the model is part of entering. They aren't separate events.

otherwise I can pivot a landraider before it comes on, putting a corner on the table before I move and measure from the center point I pivoted around, as opposed to the corner thats already on the board and gain extra movement.

Yes, you can start a Land Raider sideways off the board and pivot to move onto the board. If you can do that in 6" which I doubt.

fair enough if a used the term wing and wingspan wrongly there, people got uppity about me using the term radius, and that is the # is started with as opposed to true wingspan which is the diameter of 10 in this example.

a model with a 5" wing, from center of model to end of wing,

will not end up 4" off the table edge legally,

it needs at least 5" to take the entire hull (wing) onto the table

that coupled with a mandatory 18" move (even IF you are allowed to start with part of the hull on the table)

so even assuming its ok to place some of the hull on the board,
you still must end up 18" from where you entered the table, and 5" away from the board edge (so your wing doesnt hang over)

follow so far? can you picture a 18" line at an angle from point of entry, and a 5" one perpandicular with the board edge, all forming a triangle with the board edge?

any angle smaller then 16 degrees will result in less then 5" clearance for the wing, placing it off the table= illegal

any angle greater then 16 degrees will place the model entirely on the table = legal

the angle changes depending on how long the models wings are

that is why you still have a limit to the angle of ingress, because the wing must be completely on the board at the end of the move, and you cannot change facing dureing the straight line move.

instead what I see people doing is just using the base, and making sure the base is on the board, while the wings hang over, turning say a 10" wide model, into a model as wide as the base.

do you see what I am getting at now?

easysauce wrote:
chosing the facing of the model while it is off the board, does not give you permission to put part of the model on the board before it enters

While this is true, if you choose to face the Flyer at a 90 degree angle to the board edge, then start your movement, the pivot will bring part of the model onto the board, as flyers are not round.

P.S. pivoting is included in a flyers movement.

rigeld2 wrote:
Put the nose at the edge of the table. Pivot on the centerpoint. Oh look, the wing can be over the table before the model moves an inch.

While this is quite condescending in tone, it does make sense. Your Flyer, being "just off the board," can be positioned in any orientation you desire. Backwards? Ok, so long as you can somehow end your move completely on the table. (So not backwards, then.) But you can back your tank onto the table.

So I'm assuming the general consensus is this, if you won a flyer ya better come on straight or your cheating. If you measure from the hull or base 18 inches is 18 inches. So I guess the rules are come on from the board edge go 18 to 36 make sure at the end of your move you went in a straight line AND ARE fully on the able.

1. Are the wings part of the hull? Or decorations?
2. When your shooting at a flyer. From the sides do you measure range to the hull or wing tip?

The wing isn't where you measure from, so as soon as the tip of the hull(nose) touches a board edge start the tape there. If someone has to extreme of a angle they will see they may not complete the move legally. So all this arguing is moot . Shoot don't even need a protractor, just show them the error of that thinking they will choose a better angle.

1) a flyers wing is hull. (p. 73)

2) The wing tip is Hull and you measure from the Hull.

Lungpickle wrote:
So I'm assuming the general consensus is this, if you won a flyer ya better come on straight or your cheating. If you measure from the hull or base 18 inches is 18 inches. So I guess the rules are come on from the board edge go 18 to 36 make sure at the end of your move you went in a straight line AND ARE fully on the able.

1. Are the wings part of the hull? Or decorations?
2. When your shooting at a flyer. From the sides do you measure range to the hull or wing tip?

The wing isn't where you measure from, so as soon as the tip of the hull(nose) touches a board edge start the tape there. If someone has to extreme of a angle they will see they may not complete the move legally. So all this arguing is moot . Shoot don't even need a protractor, just show them the error of that thinking they will choose a better angle.

no its not that you have to come in at 90 degrees to your edge,

and measuring from the flyers base is illegal, though many people do it because it is easier, the rule book specifically states you measure from the hull,

wings are 100% part of the hull, and must be 100% over the table after the flyer has arrived,

measuring the flyers base as its width is illegal, you use the hull, which includes the wings.

this is what I am talking about, people measure with the base, and suddenly the model went from being a 10" wide model that needs to end up 5" from the board edge to have its entire hull over the table,

to a flyer that is only as wide as its base, and only needs to be an inch or two off the table edge.

stop measuring from the base on flyers, it is not the same, its not the rules, the rules tell you to measure from the hull, and wings are part of the hull.

you cannot arbitrarily state the nose is part of the hull, where as the wing is not,




All I am saying, is that wider models will have to approach at larger angles to ensure their wing is entirely over the board,

the above poster is what I am trying to correct (for people like rigel and death reaper)

they are measureing using the BASE and only putting the BASE on the board, because they dont realise the wings matter

with the wings off the board,
it allows for a shallower angle of approach then is allowed by using the vehicles hull, because you only need to get the base onto the table as opposed to the whole hull.

why is that so controversial?

I have no problem measuring from the hull on my flyers, as the rules state,

everyone else seems bent on treating the hull as if it were not there, and measureing from the base for everything...

when the rules say its the other way around, the base is effectively ignored (for this purpose), while the hull is used for all measurments

easysauce wrote:
everyone else seems bent on treating the hull as if it were not there, and measureing from the base for everything...

No, no one is doing that. Anywhere.

rigeld2 wrote:

easysauce wrote:
everyone else seems bent on treating the hull as if it were not there, and measureing from the base for everything...

No, no one is doing that. Anywhere.

except you are argueing against my point:

my point:

That there is in fact a angle so sharp as to not bring your flyer fully onto the table if you use that angle with your 18"+ move.

people using the flyer base to measure, are doing it wrong, and it is to their advantage to do so

Almost every person I have seen measure flyer movement ect does this, and claims its easier, or the same as measuring from the hull

The OP making this thread also elads me to believe not EVERYONE is using the hull as they are supposed to


your point:
?????

With pivoting being part of movement, it's pretty clear that you can pivot then move and as long as the whole model is on the board after it has moved on, your good to go.

easysauce wrote:
That there is in fact a angle so sharp as to not bring your flyer fully onto the table if you use that angle with your 18"+ move.

Yes, but it has nothing to do with what you've tried to say and called other people wrong on. You've made incorrect statements without backing them up and have ignored questions.

Almost every person I have seen measure flyer movement ect does this, and claims its easier, or the same as measuring from the hull

In many cases it is easier and it is the same as measuring from the hull.

Your initial post in the thread said this:

if you come in at an angle so shallow that your wing is off the board for 14" of the 18" you claim to travel, that breaks normal movement rules, since you cannot put part of the model off table for part of your movement,

Which has nothing to do with the base and is wholly incorrect. Since then you went into some rant about a model being on the board before it arrives (which I still don't understand).

The rules for flyers actually do state that they pivot before they move.

"a zooming Flyer can
only make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90 degrees before it moves." P. 80

It does go on to state that flyers can enter from any angle, of course.

There is also the rule stipulation that pivoting on the spot doesn't count as movement. p. 71

I hate to say it, but I agree with easysauce on this one, you technically can't pivot a flyer from reserves and have part of it's hull overlap the board.

Page 71 does not say what you think it says.

"Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving," P.71

If you only pivot then it does not count as moving.

If you pivot them move then the rules on Page 71 have no bearing as we are not "Pivoting on the spot alone"

 Kevin949 wrote:
The rules for flyers actually do state that they pivot before they move.

They pivot before the model moves, but the pivot is absolutely part of the model's movement.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Page 71 does not say what you think it says.

"Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving," P.71

If you only pivot then it does not count as moving.

If you pivot them move then the rules on Page 71 have no bearing as we are not "Pivoting on the spot alone"

Right, and you are only allowed to "move" onto the board. You can't pivot onto the board.

So no, it says exactly what I think it says.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
The rules for flyers actually do state that they pivot before they move.

They pivot before the model moves, but the pivot is absolutely part of the model's movement.

Being part of a vehicles movement and being an actual "move" are not the same thing.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Page 71 does not say what you think it says.

"Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving," P.71

If you only pivot then it does not count as moving.

If you pivot them move then the rules on Page 71 have no bearing as we are not "Pivoting on the spot alone"

Right, and you are only allowed to "move" onto the board. You can't pivot onto the board.

So no, it says exactly what I think it says.

Pivoting is movement unless you are "Pivoting on the spot alone" which is not what a flyer is doing.

 Kevin949 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
The rules for flyers actually do state that they pivot before they move.

They pivot before the model moves, but the pivot is absolutely part of the model's movement.

Being part of a vehicles movement and being an actual "move" are not the same thing.

... correct. ... And?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
The rules for flyers actually do state that they pivot before they move.

They pivot before the model moves, but the pivot is absolutely part of the model's movement.

Being part of a vehicles movement and being an actual "move" are not the same thing.

... correct. ... And?

I said it earlier. If pivoting is not moving, and you're only allowed to move onto the board....do you follow this?

 Kevin949 wrote:
I said it earlier. If pivoting is not moving, and you're only allowed to move onto the board....do you follow this?

Since pivoting is part of movement and the vehicle is moving onto the board, no I don't follow you.
That's like saying moving the first inch is movement and not enough to get you on the board, so you're destroyed.

so what "spot" is the flyer pivoting on when its not on the board?

you choose the angle of entry as per BRB, it says nothing about models not on the board yet pivoting, nor would pivoting affect the minimum angle of ingress, pivoting is not needed, and arguable not doable since the model is not on the table, and has no point to pivot on in the first place.

the size of the vehicle affects the maximum angle it can cut to arrive as close as possible to the edge it arrives from, while still being wholly on the table after its move, and having moved in a straight line from its ingress point

so if pivot =/= movement, then why can you pivot onto the board? you are ONLY allowed to move onto the board. there is no rule supporting units in reserve making a pivot before having a spot on the board to pivot around.

if pivot = movement, well we all know thats wrong by defacto

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Page 71 does not say what you think it says.

"Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving," P.71

If you only pivot then it does not count as moving.

If you pivot them move then the rules on Page 71 have no bearing as we are not "Pivoting on the spot alone"

Right, and you are only allowed to "move" onto the board. You can't pivot onto the board.

So no, it says exactly what I think it says.

Pivoting is movement unless you are "Pivoting on the spot alone" which is not what a flyer is doing.

Uhm, that's exactly what it's doing. It's pivoting before moving. It even says "can only make a single pivot on the spot of up to"...Did you read what I put earlier?

Since it's considered to be "just off the board in the previous turn and moved as normal" (page 124) and you pivot around the centerpoint of the model (page 71) it's not hard to figure out.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
I said it earlier. If pivoting is not moving, and you're only allowed to move onto the board....do you follow this?

Since pivoting is part of movement and the vehicle is moving onto the board, no I don't follow you.
That's like saying moving the first inch is movement and not enough to get you on the board, so you're destroyed.

No, pivoting on the spot is part of the movement phase, it is "not" movement. The movement rules state pivoting on the spot is not moving and the flyers rules say what I posted above, it is pivoting on the spot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To represent its limited maneuverability, a zooming Flyer can
only make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90 degrees before it
moves.

Vehicles turn by pivoting on the
spot about their centre-point, rather than wheeling round.
Turning does not reduce the vehicle's movement. Pivoting
on the spot alone does not count as moving,

easysauce wrote:you choose the angle of entry as per BRB, it says nothing about models not on the board yet pivoting,

It doesn't need to. They're allowed to make a normal move. Is a pivot an allowed part of a normal move? Is there anything denying the pivot?

nor would pivoting affect the minimum angle of ingress, pivoting is not needed, and arguable not doable since the model is not on the table, and has no point to pivot on in the first place.

The latter part of the sentence is demonstrably false, and the former is incorrect as well.

the size of the vehicle affects the maximum angle it can cut to arrive as close as possible to the edge it arrives from, while still being wholly on the table after its move, and having moved in a straight line from its ingress point

You keep bringing up this "maximum angle". Can you cite where it is in the rules? Or can you agree that a Flyer can come on at any angle it wants as long as the entire hull is over the table?

And can you clarify if you're arguing about people measuring from bases or some imaginary rule about an angle?

easysauce wrote:
That there is in fact a angle so sharp as to not bring your flyer fully onto the table if you use that angle with your 18"+ move.

Yes, but it has nothing to do with what you've tried to say and called other people wrong on. You've made incorrect statements without backing them up and have ignored questions.

Almost every person I have seen measure flyer movement ect does this, and claims its easier, or the same as measuring from the hull

In many cases it is easier and it is the same as measuring from the hull.

Your initial post in the thread said this:

if you come in at an angle so shallow that your wing is off the board for 14" of the 18" you claim to travel, that breaks normal movement rules, since you cannot put part of the model off table for part of your movement,

Which has nothing to do with the base and is wholly incorrect. Since then you went into some rant about a model being on the board before it arrives (which I still don't understand).

Pivoting isn't being on the board before the model "arrives". Pivoting is part of the arrival movement.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kevin949 wrote:
No, pivoting on the spot is part of the movement phase, it is "not" movement. The movement rules state pivoting on the spot is not moving and the flyers rules say what I posted above, it is pivoting on the spot.

Really?

Page 71 wrote:Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as Stationary

So lets use the entire sentence instead of just the part that you want to use, ok?
So pivoting on the spot alone isn't moving, so you're Stationary.
Flyers cannot pivot on the spot alone when Swooping because they'd crash. They must pivot as part of actually moving.
edit: bolded the word Kevin949 seems to be missing

rigeld2 wrote:
Since it's considered to be "just off the board in the previous turn and moved as normal" (page 124) and you pivot around the centerpoint of the model (page 71) it's not hard to figure out.

again, you are asserting that pivoting = movement,

it is not,

you just like to interject Schrodinger into everything then?

you assert:
pivoting is movement, because it allows me to move onto the board, and is allowed while in reserves
but it is not movement, because it does not take up the move distance, and is not calculated for move range, and it can be done from reserves.


so which is it rigel?



you have not left reserves till you have MOVED onto the board,

pivoting is not movement, yet you state it can put you onto the board no problem.

besides all this and you do NOT need to pivot in the first place (if it is even allowed for a model with not on the board)

since BRB states you simple CHOOSE the angle of ingress, not some intricate pivot while off the board

Making the text bigger doesn't stop you from being wrong Kevin.

It says pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving.

If the flyer does anything besides "pivoting alone" then it IS part of the movement.

How can you type something out in such large font and not actually read it first?

So you just want to ignore the part of the flyer rules that explicitly say it's pivoting on the spot?

Yes, let's look at the whole sentence - Pivoting
on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that
only pivots in the Movement phase counts as Stationary.

You see that word "so" there? That's used when imparting an example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BarBoBot wrote:
Making the text bigger doesn't stop you from being wrong Kevin.

It says pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving.

If the flyer does anything besides "pivoting alone" then it IS par of the movement.

His can you type something out in such large font and not actually read it first?

Thinking I'm wrong doesn't make you right, so how about you contribute instead of berate.