Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

The theme of Tau was to pimp by tech, not increased statlines. BS 3 is exactly that. Orks do not complain , BS 2 and shouldn't so much lead in the air grant a better chance to hit?
BS 0-10. BS 2-5 used. Average is a funny concept. Orks live with BS 2 and Tau threads are filled with BS 5.....

Which is weird, because orks used to have BS3, warbosses had around BS4-6 (based on clan, bad moonz got bonuses!) a long while back

Happens when you put dakka on top of more dakka
More fun, decreasing bullet to hit ratio.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No, I claimed Dark Angels weren't very far ahead of Vanilla, you called that "nonsense" and then backed it up with the very stuff that Dark Angels are supposed to be better at. Good job. Yes, that means that if you want to play a Terminator army you'd be better off with Dark Angels, but that's the entire point. There's stuff that Vanilla does that no one else does as well. As long as the variant Marine Codices don't become "Vanilla +1" (which I completely agree Space Wolves and to a lesser extent Blood Angels were in 5th) there's no such WAAC factor, which is why I brought up Dark Angels as an example. They're different without being better in every single way.

That's a nice theory. Unfortunately reality disagrees with you and "my 'custom chapter' that always uses whatever the newest and most overpowered marine list happens to be" is the popular "WAAC" way of playing marines.

 1hadhq wrote:
Plus, any FotM player would move towards "counts as", this little plastic figure is ork this month and elf next. WAAC are acting like this everywhere, not just TT-games.

You do realize that we're talking about space marine codex hopping, right? You know, the kind where 95% of the models are the same and the only difference is the paint? Let's review:

You said that I'm arguing out of WAAC desire to have a more overpowered army with a single book.

I corrected you and pointed out that the current system does more for WAAC players and replacing it with a single marine codex would reduce the potential for WAAC abuse.

"what would you do" only makes sense if we have a common ground.
If a layout or size isn't part of this, we are at handwavium stage.

As if "change the layout or size" is any more handwavium than anything in the basic premise of the thread?

GW is losing the attention with their marketing... not the line of products.

Nonsense. What do you think is going to happen when the next 40k army is released? Tau "marketing" disappears and we go back to 24/7 marines. The existence of so many marine armies with constant updates pushes all of the other armies out of the spotlight. Reduce the number of separate marine armies and there's more room for attention for the non-marine armies.

Why would they be rarer?

Because new players don't walk into a GW store and see marine armies taking up half the shelves?

The theme of Tau was to pimp by tech, not increased statlines. BS 3 is exactly that. Orks do not complain , BS 2 and shouldn't so much lead in the air grant a better chance to hit?
BS 0-10. BS 2-5 used. Average is a funny concept. Orks live with BS 2 and Tau threads are filled with BS 5.....

Orks don't complain because their fundamental concept is "quantity over quality". Individual Orks suck, but there's an endless number of them.

Tau were supposed to be an elite army. Fire warriors at BS 3 is fine, but battlesuit pilots (veterans of years of combat before they're even allowed to take the trial by fire to get promoted to a battlesuit) should be able to shoot better than a basic guardsman. Just like IG veterans there should be a nice simple progression: fire warriors and pathfinders at BS 3, battlesuits at BS 4, and characters at BS 5.

And sure, represent it with technology. The problem is that we lost targeting arrays (the technological solution to having BS 4) and replaced it with the magic laser pointer gimmick. That's terrible design.

Can't change your feelings of whats average, but seriously a scale of 10 using only 50% cannot provide a fine-tuned upscaling from can't hit a barn to professional .

The point is that the average stat line in the 40k system is supposed to be 3s for everything, with a 4 for a stat representing exceptional ability in that area. But marine dominance completely skews that so that 4 is the average players expect and anything 3 or less is perceived as well below average. BS 4 is "standard" and anything with BS 3 is viewed as an IG-style horde of conscripts unit, T4/3+ is the MEQ standard and anything less is dismissed as no-save light infantry, etc.

The Tau are just the latest example of this problem, people complain about fire warriors being BS 3 even though BS 3 is what professional soldiers get because of marine dominance. Remove the redundant marine books and fire warrior BS 3 would be viewed as average, not a below-average "can't aim worth anything" insult.

 Peregrine wrote:

The point is that the average stat line in the 40k system is supposed to be 3s for everything, with a 4 for a stat representing exceptional ability in that area. But marine dominance completely skews that so that 4 is the average players expect and anything 3 or less is perceived as well below average. BS 4 is "standard" and anything with BS 3 is viewed as an IG-style horde of conscripts unit, T4/3+ is the MEQ standard and anything less is dismissed as no-save light infantry, etc.

The Tau are just the latest example of this problem, people complain about fire warriors being BS 3 even though BS 3 is what professional soldiers get because of marine dominance. Remove the redundant marine books and fire warrior BS 3 would be viewed as average, not a below-average "can't aim worth anything" insult.

There does seem to be bit of a trend reversing stats inflation however: Necron Warriors lost their Sv3+, Daemon troops had stats reduction across the board.Kroot lost a point of Strength. Etc. I suspect the idea is partly to make Marine statline stand apart bit more.

If forced to make a guess, it's possible Ork boyz will lose either one Attack or WS4 in next Codex?

Backfire wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

The point is that the average stat line in the 40k system is supposed to be 3s for everything, with a 4 for a stat representing exceptional ability in that area. But marine dominance completely skews that so that 4 is the average players expect and anything 3 or less is perceived as well below average. BS 4 is "standard" and anything with BS 3 is viewed as an IG-style horde of conscripts unit, T4/3+ is the MEQ standard and anything less is dismissed as no-save light infantry, etc.

The Tau are just the latest example of this problem, people complain about fire warriors being BS 3 even though BS 3 is what professional soldiers get because of marine dominance. Remove the redundant marine books and fire warrior BS 3 would be viewed as average, not a below-average "can't aim worth anything" insult.

There does seem to be bit of a trend reversing stats inflation however: Necron Warriors lost their Sv3+, Daemon troops had stats reduction across the board.Kroot lost a point of Strength. Etc. I suspect the idea is partly to make Marine statline stand apart bit more.

If forced to make a guess, it's possible Ork boyz will lose either one Attack or WS4 in next Codex?

Melee boyz are in enough trouble as is, and I'm not cynical enough to believe that they are weakening everything to make MEQ better..

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Backfire wrote:

If forced to make a guess, it's possible Ork boyz will lose either one Attack or WS4 in next Codex?

Melee boyz are in enough trouble as is, and I'm not cynical enough to believe that they are weakening everything to make MEQ better..

I think loss of an attack might hurt Shoota boyz more? But I'm just speculating.

I don't believe it's to make Marines so much "better" but at least to make their statline stand out bit more. When 3/4 of the armies have troops with same statline, it's kinda hard to argue that they're some sort of "super" soldiers.

Backfire wrote:
I don't believe it's to make Marines so much "better" but at least to make their statline stand out bit more. When 3/4 of the armies have troops with same statline, it's kinda hard to argue that they're some sort of "super" soldiers.

Nerfing everyone else's stats doesn't accomplish this, it just means that half the game is all-4s while everyone else sucks. The only way to fix stat inflation is to reduce the dominance of marines, and one way to start is by removing all the redundant "marines but slightly different" codices so that marines only occupy two army "slots" (chaos and loyalist).

For those saying no one should be cut you would all be happy i assume with codex world eaters, codex thousand sons, codex death guard, codex emperors children, codex bad moons, codex snakebites etc...

Why, well why not. If gw dropped all the imperial marines into one book other than gk they could release stuff for armies that need it. Contrary to popular belief not everyone has a marine army

So 13 pages in and people still dont realize the number of marine books is based on selling models. There have been many suggestions of how and why to slice the codex pie differently but none of them advance the sale of more space marine models and all the ones that reduce the number of books just clog up the production line.

GW is not going to cannibilize its sales and shrink the opportunities for new releases of space marines by dropping GK, SW, BA, and DA UNLESS and UNTIL they are not selling enough models to pull their weight.

The BT appear to not be pulling their weight because now they are only a section in the general SM section on the website. This is probably a portent that they will be rolled into the SM book when it comes out later this year.

 Peregrine wrote:

You do realize that we're talking about space marine codex hopping, right? You know, the kind where 95% of the models are the same and the only difference is the paint?

Codex hopping isn't limited to space marines.
Maybe in your area.
On earth, our little blue ball we live on, there is more than your little neighborhood.

Maybe everyone you know has just a cheap starter set and thus 95% of the models are the same. Because seriously, only paint is different is nonsense.
Your flawed logic throws CSM into the mix:
power armor standard = yes, Statline not far off = yes, boltgun = yes, may use parts of the loyalists = yes, same ammo = yes,
conclusion: per Peregrines idea of too identical so just different paintjob, CSM are SM and should be condensed into the SM dex.
Well done.

 Peregrine wrote:

Nonsense. What do you think is going to happen when the next 40k army is released?

Some people buy it, some people wait. Some people aren't interested right now and pick them up someday before they get a 7th ed codex.

 Peregrine wrote:

Tau "marketing" disappears and we go back to 24/7 marines.

Good thing we have Eldar in the pipeline. Care to visit News&rumors?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/371300.page
Space Elfs are Space Marines now?

 Peregrine wrote:

The existence of so many marine armies with constant updates pushes all of the other armies out of the spotlight. Reduce the number of separate marine armies and there's more room for attention for the non-marine armies.

Constant updates? Vanilla, IG, CSM, Nids and Tau, sure. Soo many SM

 Peregrine wrote:

Why would they be rarer?

Because new players don't walk into a GW store and see marine armies taking up half the shelves?

Again, you view may be right somewhere on this planet. It is not at this side of the atlantic. Usually 45% are WHFB, 10% Lotr and 45% 40k.
Showcases tend to have the recently released army and a mix of the rest. A balanced mix.

So new player walks into store, sees lots of WHFB. WD and Terrain, lotr. Has to get further to reach 40k.
Every codex and army. Except sisters.
The basic line of SM boxes isn't bigger than the IG. So all they have as additional shelf space filler are a few chapter specific boxes. Maybe 2x SW, 2x BA and 2x DA. If your lucky BT upgrade set.
Too bad the space wasted on CSM, Necrons,Tau,Eldar, Tyranids,IG is equal to the basic line of SM products , so the corner of SM is about 1/8 of the 40 shelf without the codex specific boxes. Oh noes!
Add the grey knights. The silvery shiny knights. The ones they most likely deemed as a attraction to new players.
Tell me, how many people would play a non-marine army if the GK had no codex or minis?

 Peregrine wrote:

Tau were supposed to be an elite army.

No. A young upstart Empire. They don't have the numbers but their military size doesn't make them elite.

 Peregrine wrote:

Fire warriors at BS 3 is fine, but battlesuit pilots (veterans of years of combat before they're even allowed to take the trial by fire to get promoted to a battlesuit) should be able to shoot better than a basic guardsman. Just like IG veterans there should be a nice simple progression: fire warriors and pathfinders at BS 3, battlesuits at BS 4, and characters at BS 5.

The species who survives even when most of the Galaxy is attacking them has to get better to live another day.
Tau just serve for a while. If they lack any abitlity, they try to find an ally to fill that role.

 Peregrine wrote:

The point is that the average stat line in the 40k system is supposed to be 3s for everything, with a 4 for a stat representing exceptional ability in that area. But marine dominance completely skews that so that 4 is the average players expect and anything 3 or less is perceived as well below average. BS 4 is "standard" and anything with BS 3 is viewed as an IG-style horde of conscripts unit, T4/3+ is the MEQ standard and anything less is dismissed as no-save light infantry, etc.

The only way to fix stat inflation is to reduce the dominance of marines, and one way to start is by removing all the redundant "marines but slightly different" codices so that marines only occupy two army "slots" (chaos and loyalist).

How would the common statline change if the sources to field the existing models are fewer?
Maybe not at all? Like these models aren't going away?
Or is their fate to sit on a shelf and people fondly remember the good old days when you had a choice ? One of your own?
Could the "sky is falling attitude" of threads turn people from non-SM armies towards the oh so dominant SM?

 Skriker wrote:
[Why can't Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and other marine forces do the same thing?

Skriker

TL;DR, because Space Marine players don't want to give up their favored status and let someone else get some special snowflake treatment for a change.

JWhex wrote:
So 13 pages in and people still dont realize the number of marine books is based on selling models. There have been many suggestions of how and why to slice the codex pie differently but none of them advance the sale of more space marine models and all the ones that reduce the number of books just clog up the production line.

GW is not going to cannibilize its sales and shrink the opportunities for new releases of space marines by dropping GK, SW, BA, and DA UNLESS and UNTIL they are not selling enough models to pull their weight.

The BT appear to not be pulling their weight because now they are only a section in the general SM section on the website. This is probably a portent that they will be rolled into the SM book when it comes out later this year.

And so were Dark Angels until about a month or so before their codex update into 6th edition, so your theory holds little water here...
Templars have been a sub-section in the on-line store since around the begining of 5th edition or so. Until Hastings & Harry come right out and say emphatically that Black Templars are 100% definately getting folded into codex marines, it's nothing but the wishlisting of marine-haters imho.

Mind you, most of the anti-marine crowd also seem to forget that 4th edition was the "Non-Marine Edition" with only C:SM's, BT's & DA's getting updates, while we got IG, CSM's, Tau, Tyranids, Eldar & Orks with Daemons being only 2 months before 5th edition! That's a grand total of 2 non-codex Chapter updates vs 2 'generic' marine varients, IG and 5 Xenos books!
So really, 5th edition was simply the turn for the specialist Chapters to get their turn in the limelight...

And right now, 6th has thus far been anything BUT "Marine get all the love - GW hates Xenos" whinefest. We've had Dark Angels so far, but also CSM's, Daemons & Tau, with rummors of Eldar being very close as well, and whispering of Tyranids and potentially Orks also being on the perverbial horrizon with only Codex Marines getting any solid leads on the marine front.

CSMs are just marines of a different color. Stop acting like they aren't.

 Melissia wrote:
CSMs are just marines of a different color. Stop acting like they aren't.

Not sure if serious...

 Melissia wrote:
CSMs are just marines of a different color. Stop acting like they aren't.

Well they did use to be different..Back before 4th.

Though they do have marks, cult units, daemon units, and the fact that GW restricts them from standard space marine wargear (Why can't renegades steal some storm shields again?)

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
CSMs are just marines of a different color. Stop acting like they aren't.

Not sure if serious...

Why wouldn't I be?

They are Chaos Space Marines. They're just another army of Space Marines, based off of the standard Space Marine codex, with some alterations to make them stand out-- just like every Space Marine book. "Space Marines" is in their name. They are Space Marines in the lore. They are just another MEQ army of Space Marines in the tabletop. Hell, most of their units are practically identical to loyalist Space Marines in form and function, varying only in certain details like exchanging a special rule for a different benefit-- just like all the other space marine codices. Even the new codex which includes a few cultists is still not any more different from standard Space Marines than Grey Knights, who themselves are... just another color of Space Marines (silvery-grey in this case).

They're Space Marines. Yet for some nonsensical reasons they're treated as if they aren't.

 Melissia wrote:
CSMs are just marines of a different color. Stop acting like they aren't.

I concur.

Even with the whole 'marks' thing they just feel like spikier space marines. I think they need something like the Sister's Faith point thing... (actually do sisters still have that).

Not in anywhere near as useful a form.

Also? The only way to stop them from being just another flavor of Space Marines is to completely rework them, rename hem, and make them no longer Space Marines.

So basically by turning them in to Lost and the Damned and dropping the Marines in the army entirely (or relegating them to the occasional choice, and not the focus of the army).

 Melissia wrote:
Not in anywhere near as useful a form.

Also? The only way to stop them from being just another flavor of Space Marines is to completely rework them, rename hem, and make them no longer Space Marines.

So basically by turning them in to Lost and the Damned and dropping the Marines in the army entirely (or relegating them to the occasional choice, and not the focus of the army).

Course by that logic, Dark Eldar and Eldar should just be together as well? Just from the tone of the thought.

Mainly because I'd love to see a rework of CSM to give them new entire weapon lines and various different factors. Gimme my Q'sal tzeentchians and Blood gladiators of khorne.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Course by that logic, Dark Eldar and Eldar should just be together as well? Just from the tone of the thought.

They probably could in some sense. But there's a bigger difference between DE and CE than CSM and Loyalist SM.

Look at the different marine codices. BA, DA, and SW are all first founding, aka former legions. Their history is in there geneseed flaws, though DA diverge in their shame of having to hunt the Fallen. The BA and SW have different combat doctrines because their gene seed makes them behave differently, namely wulfen and sharp senses for the SW and red thirst and black rage for BA. DA have changed their doctrines specifically to hunt the Fallen. BT, although not a first founding, are on a 10000 year crusade, as I recall as a big middle finger to Guillman so that they didn't have to mold to the codex astartes. These non C:SM codices have a deep and storied history that makes them different from standard marines. Also, GW and BL play them out as different in their story telling too. SW, as big a fan as I am, make appearances a tad too often in the books, largely because most stories in the western world typically have that big burly guy who drinks copiously and loves a good brawl.

Also of note, it seems like most armies have a WFB counterpart.

 Melissia wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
CSMs are just marines of a different color. Stop acting like they aren't.

Not sure if serious...

Why wouldn't I be?

They are Chaos Space Marines. They're just another army of Space Marines, based off of the standard Space Marine codex, with some alterations to make them stand out-- just like every Space Marine book. "Space Marines" is in their name. They are Space Marines in the lore. They are just another MEQ army of Space Marines in the tabletop. Hell, most of their units are practically identical to loyalist Space Marines in form and function, varying only in certain details like exchanging a special rule for a different benefit-- just like all the other space marine codices. Even the new codex which includes a few cultists is still not any more different from standard Space Marines than Grey Knights, who themselves are... just another color of Space Marines (silvery-grey in this case).

They're Space Marines. Yet for some nonsensical reasons they're treated as if they aren't.

Apparently you seem to forget the whole bit about CSM's being a 110% different force in terms of looks, playstyle and story from their loyalist brethren? There is absolutely no way in hell to properly combine CHAOS marines into a generic SM 'dex, unless of corse your aim is to simply squat the entire army itself...
Which I'm sure every single Chaos player will no doubt rejoyce over.

But seriously, try and show us how you'd represent the Marks of the Gods, daemonic upgrades/blessings + units like Possessed, Daemon engines, cult units, etc... within the confines of just a few USR's.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
CSMs are just marines of a different color. Stop acting like they aren't.

Not sure if serious...

Why wouldn't I be?

They are Chaos Space Marines. They're just another army of Space Marines, based off of the standard Space Marine codex, with some alterations to make them stand out-- just like every Space Marine book. "Space Marines" is in their name. They are Space Marines in the lore. They are just another MEQ army of Space Marines in the tabletop. Hell, most of their units are practically identical to loyalist Space Marines in form and function, varying only in certain details like exchanging a special rule for a different benefit-- just like all the other space marine codices. Even the new codex which includes a few cultists is still not any more different from standard Space Marines than Grey Knights, who themselves are... just another color of Space Marines (silvery-grey in this case).

They're Space Marines. Yet for some nonsensical reasons they're treated as if they aren't.

Apparently you seem to forget the whole bit about CSM's being a 110% different force in terms of looks, playstyle and story from their loyalist brethren? There is absolutely no way in hell to properly combine CHAOS marines into a generic SM 'dex, unless of corse your aim is to simply squat the entire army itself...
Which I'm sure every single Chaos player will no doubt rejoyce over.

But seriously, try and show us how you'd represent the Marks of the Gods, daemonic upgrades/blessings + units like Possessed, Daemon engines, cult units, etc... within the confines of just a few USR's.

That, and they are mortal enemies. Slappings by both an Ultramarine and a Black Legionaire for saying they are the same and should be in the same book.

Experiment 626 wrote:
GW has tried things like Legion rules & Traits before. They sucked rotten monkeyballs and simply ended up either OP, or else only the 2-3 'best' options ever got picked and suddenly every single marine army was exactly the same... (because 3x infiltrating devastator squads and True-grit everywhere was totally fair when the marines couldn't take those land raiders they were never going to include anyways!)

Don’t put “Legions” and “Traits” in the same sentence as if their problems were universal. The Marine Traits system (and the Guard Doctrine system) were bad sets of rules because they only provided benefits, that is to say the things you “lost” by using them weren’t really losses (eg. “Oh no! I can’t take allies for my Marines... wasn’t going to take them anyway?” “Really? No Sanctioned Psykers? Well good thing I never planned on taking any...”). These problems are independent and unrelated to the balance issues of the way 3.5 Chaos did its Legion rules.

The method used for the 3.5 Codex (which, incidentally, is exactly the same method used in the first FW HH book for its Legion Specific lists) is a perfectly straightforward method of creating variant lists and is exactly how I’d do BA’s and DA’s.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

JWhex wrote:
So 13 pages in and people still dont realize the number of marine books is based on selling models.

Of course it's based on selling models. That's not in dispute. But that’s also irrelevant to this thread. We're not talking about sales, we're talking about what books we'd cut.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Apparently you seem to forget the whole bit about CSM's being a 110% different force in terms of looks, playstyle and story from their loyalist brethren?

Hmm, you might have a point.

Looks: They're Space Marines with spikes.
Playstyle: They're Space Marines with some extra mutations.
Story: They're Space Marines who are mad at their dad.

Wait, no, you don't have a point.

I'd probably go for black templars or space wolves but then some people would have an utter fit and launch a big 4chan invasion of the GW home page and hack the utter sh*t out of it. That or 4chan users would just whine and rage until their mom gives them a pacifier to suck on. I figure they'd tire themselves out eventually. It's not like 4chan hates on just one thing and stays on it after all but perhaps i'm wrong.

The only huge difference with chaos marines from normal marines is the whole daemon possession and chaos gods bit. Honestly you could probably buy normal marines and just a sort of expanded plastic set to make your chaos marines if you had to. In the end it all comes down to popularity or lack thereof. It doesn't help when an army book and models themselves look underwhelming and perform lousy. Sisters do deserve better for instance. They need a dark eldar re-vamp or they'll absolutely die out much like wood elves and bretonnia need one for fantasy.

Experiment 626 wrote:

JWhex wrote:
So 13 pages in and people still dont realize the number of marine books is based on selling models. There have been many suggestions of how and why to slice the codex pie differently but none of them advance the sale of more space marine models and all the ones that reduce the number of books just clog up the production line.

GW is not going to cannibilize its sales and shrink the opportunities for new releases of space marines by dropping GK, SW, BA, and DA UNLESS and UNTIL they are not selling enough models to pull their weight.

The BT appear to not be pulling their weight because now they are only a section in the general SM section on the website. This is probably a portent that they will be rolled into the SM book when it comes out later this year.

Until Hastings & Harry come right out and say emphatically that Black Templars are 100% definately getting folded into codex marines, it's nothing but the wishlisting of marine-haters imho.

Well Hastings has indeed essentially said the BT were going to be rolled into codex SM in a thread on Warseer. I dont have a problem with several SM codexes and I think all the ideas for dramatically cutting them back are plain silly because they are the butter of GW's bread.

I think if it wasn't for popularity of the marines that chaos marines would be forced into the same situation as a traitor guard or cultist army. In the end they'd only be a chaos faction as a whole with only slightly different chaos marine units. It's all about popularity man.

 Melissia wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Apparently you seem to forget the whole bit about CSM's being a 110% different force in terms of looks, playstyle and story from their loyalist brethren?

Hmm, you might have a point.

Looks: They're Space Marines with spikes.
Playstyle: They're Space Marines with some extra mutations.
Story: They're Space Marines who are mad at their dad.

Wait, no, you don't have a point.

Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about...

The only thing Chaos Marines & Loyalist lapdogs have in common are;
a) being 'Space Marines' in terms of basic unit stats & general equipment. (ie: power armour + bolter + bolt pistol + grenades)
b) most of their very basic equipment and a few vehicles.

Outside of that, Space Marines are defined by their generalist nature. (ie: jacks of all trades, masters of none)
Chaos Marines on the other hand have only 1 such generalist unit - their basic Troop squad, and even they can be tailored into a more dedicated/specialised role unlike a Loyalist Tactical Squad. Outside of the basic grunts, every single Chaos Marine unit is a specialist AND will also typically beat the crap out of their similar Loyalist counter-parts thanks to their Mark of Chaos, improved stats, dedicated upgrade options and/or daemonic enhancements.
The only thing Loyalists arguably do better than CSM's is play the gunline list at long range and don't need allies for access to Prescience.

How the feth would you even begin to make Chaos Marines with a loyalist book?! (serious question here)
The only Loyalists who even come remotely close to Chaos Marines are Space Wolves, and even then the similarities are only that both armies excel within 12" - 24" of their opponents.

 Melissia wrote:

 Skriker wrote:
[Why can't Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and other marine forces do the same thing?

Skriker

TL;DR, because Space Marine players don't want to give up their favored status and let someone else get some special snowflake treatment for a change.

Which is actually a big thing. A lot of players are really invested in fluff and like their individual codexes. Someone who only plays uber competitive lists with zero interest in the fluff then 40k is playing the wrong game.

What are you benefits of having a combined codex anyway?

[quote=What are you benefits of having a combined codex anyway?