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Perkustin wrote: It's not the same, i think you're confusing in-game exposition for a change of pace. Its not gameplay, it's just pointing the gun down and walking a bit slower while a cutscene plays. Linear story-based games need puzzles or at least a distinct non-combat mechanic for a change of pace. It's not an open world game where you can do loads of other non-combat stuff while still using a lot of the mechanics.
The dialogue system in Mass Effect is a leftfield example, a non-combat game mechanic that abates the monotony of combat.
Hmmm...good point. In the case of ME, however, I'd say that the cutscenes play that part - I often caught myself waiting for the combat to finally end in order to see the next cutscene.
Perkustin wrote: It's not the same, i think you're confusing in-game exposition for a change of pace.
No, I'm not. There's no difference to be had when it's done well.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
My question is to you, did you go in expecting to be faced with puzzles?
I find a disconnect there.. I play puzzle games because I want puzzles, I play Bioshock Infinite because I want a compelling story in an awesomely designed city with a cool assortment of weapons (granted I'm still using my Repeater and my Pistol).
Like I honestly think you're walking into this game expecting something it never set out to be...
DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+ Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree then. No game mechanics involved(bioshock infinite's 'firstperson cutscenes' for example ) = story, A Change of Pace (we both seem to agree on my implied meaning of the phrase at least ) needs to involve game mechanics, simples. I want a story i read a book, to be somewhat churlish.
EDIT: @Alfndrate. Its personal taste really, i like having a 'change of pace' usually this takes the form of puzzles. I get a bit tired of shooting face sometimes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/10 23:47:03
Mary Sue wrote: Perkustin is even more awesome than me!
Perkustin wrote: A Change of Pace (we both seem to agree on my implied meaning of the phrase at least ) needs to involve game mechanics, simple
No it doesn't. I recommend you play Half Life 2 and listen to Valve's developer commentary, it provides some great insight in changing pace without necessarily adding in puzzles (HL2 has puzzles of course, but not every change of pace involves them).
A change of pace can simply be a breather section-- a chance for you to gather your wits, calm down, and take stock of your surroundings and enjoy the view. Space Marine did a good job at that, actually.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
This is Kan Spam, there is much like it... But this Kan Spam is because I copied and pasted from my post at the bottom of the previous page and forgot to grab the spoiler tags.
A thousand apologies to MIelissia.
Spoiler:
I'd also like to point out that the ending makes complete and total sense... The thing you have to remember is that...there is no way to have control over your fate and your destiny. The choices you have as a player of the game are which power ups you use, how you go about the levels, whether or not we accept Elizabeth's items she tosses at us. You know, the choices that we as players are conditioned to think aren't actually choices... These are the choices that we're given. As the game winds down, we're treated to several versions of Booker, Elizabeth, etc... All of those we see are the ones that managed to make it to that point. There are countless other Bookers et al. that never made it to that point in the timeline. Yet here we are, we've made it by the little choices we've made. There is not saving or harvesting of little sisters, there's no dialogue where we can undress the weird blue alien chick for some hawt dry humping, there are simply the choices we make that got us through the game. And yet, at the end of it all... our choices are for naught. There is no different ending depending on whether the coin flipped heads or tails (hint: It only EVER flips 1 way), or whether we give the bird or the cage pendant to Elizabeth, or whether or not you choose to accept the baptism before entering Columbia, there is simply the ending for Booker.
Let me put it to you this way in terms of the way endings can completely ruin the image of a game. Mass Effect 3 had terrible endings out of the gate. Everyone wanted to be a hero in that game and were treated to a bad ending and a worse ending. As someone that beat the game recently without downloading the "extra" ending content, I can tell you, I felt crappy that all of my paragon choices were for naught. But I also couldn't get the "best" ending I could because I, as a player, chose to not play game after game after game of multiplayer matches to get my galactic readiness level up beyond 50% or w/e I needed. I have to live with those choices in my game. Yet in BioShock, I HAVE to live with my choices because there is no illusion that they will have any affect, unlike the ending(s) of Mass Effect 3. So at the end of it all, we're treated to a game that shows us a person, not a hero, who is sent on a job to escape his gambling debts (results of one of his choices before the game starts, again something we can't control). Booker even tells us he's no hero several times in the game. So how does the ending not make sense? Why should we have a choice in Booker's fate? We haven't had a choice at any other time in the game?
And personal tastes aside, the game never marketed itself as a puzzle game, or that it would have puzzles in it. I just think you're giving it a harsh criticism that it doesn't deserve because it never tried to be anything but. And as for the change of pace, some of the most important dialogue comes right after "intense" combat scenes...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/11 00:00:30
DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+ Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Maybe we dont agree on the definition. I may be slightly misusing it, i'll openly admit it. I am aware of what you speak of but i still class those moments as story, they're by their nature non-interactive. Perhaps if i say 'variety' you may understand what i mean? There is only Combat and Cutscenes with a tissue thin veneer of interaction in Bioshock. I expect more from a game that isn't supposed to be something you rush through in 4 hours to train you for multiplayer.
Mary Sue wrote: Perkustin is even more awesome than me!
Perkustin wrote: Maybe we dont agree on the definition. I may be slightly misusing it, i'll openly admit it. I am aware of what you speak of but i still class those moments as story, they're by their nature non-interactive.
Exploration is non-interactive?
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Perkustin wrote: Maybe we dont agree on the definition. I may be slightly misusing it, i'll openly admit it. I am aware of what you speak of but i still class those moments as story, they're by their nature non-interactive. Perhaps if i say 'variety' you may understand what i mean? There is only Combat and Cutscenes with a tissue thin veneer of interaction in Bioshock. I expect more from a game that isn't supposed to be something you rush through in 4 hours to train you for multiplayer.
Okay, I'll give you variety, but at the same time... Like... It's a game to tell a story... In fact I would be more upset if it included puzzles, and other things that kept me from advancing storyline... One of the best things is that you don't have to defend Elizabeth during combat (she can handle her own, making her less damsel in distress, and more of a partner), and you don't have to go through stupid minigames to get into locked doors, you just need an item and Elizabeth... And you're not really bogged down with buying/finding ammo, health, salts because Elizabeth helps you in a pinch. She has tossed me so many Repeaters, it's not even funny...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/11 00:07:43
DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+ Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics
It is still story, it is not using any of the mechanics bar 'moving the Parser' to use the, highly appropriate, analogy of point n'clicks.
You are not Altair parkouring his way up a building for some mysterious tidbit, you aren't Niko Bellic hitting a ramp fast enough to reach some secret area.
Edit@Alf, as i say, totally personal taste, alot of people really hate puzzles in combat games, i quite like them. I just personally feel a little queasy after lining up the tenth or so perfect headshot, or fetishistic 'Melee Takedown'.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/11 00:14:16
Mary Sue wrote: Perkustin is even more awesome than me!
Perkustin wrote: It is still story, it is not using any of the mechanics bar 'moving the Parser' to use the, highly appropriate, analogy of point n'clicks.
Not relevant.
Exploration is interactive, regardless of if it adds in new mechanics or not.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/11 00:13:54
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Perkustin wrote: It is still story, it is not using any of the mechanics bar 'moving the Parser' to use the, highly appropriate, analogy of point n'clicks.
Not relevant.
Exploration is interactive, regardless of if it adds in new mechanics or not.
You cant simply make these dismissals and absolute statements and expect it to wash. I didnt say it had to introduce new ones, it just has to use them in some manner to qualify as exploration in the game sense. You dont say you're Exploring a book by reading it
Mary Sue wrote: Perkustin is even more awesome than me!
Perkustin wrote: You cant simply make these dismissals and absolute statements and expect it to wash. I didnt say it had to introduce new ones, it just has to use them in some manner to qualify as exploration in the game sense.
Which it does.
Perkustin wrote: You dont say you're Exploring a book by reading it
Actually, I would, but in the context of books, "exploring" has an entirely different meaning (sinc ebooks as a general whole are relatively non-interactive)
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Perkustin wrote: It's not the same, i think you're confusing in-game exposition for a change of pace. Its not gameplay, it's just pointing the gun down and walking a bit slower while a cutscene plays. EDIT, to be truly great, Linear story-based games need puzzles or at least a distinct non-combat mechanic for a change of pace. It's not an open world game where you can do loads of other non-combat stuff while still using a lot of the mechanics.
The dialogue system in Mass Effect is a leftfield example, a non-combat game mechanic that abates the monotony of combat.
To clarify, you didn't actually PLAY the game did you?
Perkustin wrote: It's not the same, i think you're confusing in-game exposition for a change of pace. Its not gameplay, it's just pointing the gun down and walking a bit slower while a cutscene plays. EDIT, to be truly great, Linear story-based games need puzzles or at least a distinct non-combat mechanic for a change of pace. It's not an open world game where you can do loads of other non-combat stuff while still using a lot of the mechanics.
The dialogue system in Mass Effect is a leftfield example, a non-combat game mechanic that abates the monotony of combat.
To clarify, you didn't actually PLAY the game did you?
the more posts someone has the more likely they just post bs dude,
Godforge custom 3d printing / professional level casting masters and design:
https://www.etsy.com/shop/GodForge
But seriously, I haven't read any review that says the game is poorly paced.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Perkustin wrote: It's not the same, i think you're confusing in-game exposition for a change of pace. Its not gameplay, it's just pointing the gun down and walking a bit slower while a cutscene plays. EDIT, to be truly great, Linear story-based games need puzzles or at least a distinct non-combat mechanic for a change of pace. It's not an open world game where you can do loads of other non-combat stuff while still using a lot of the mechanics.
The dialogue system in Mass Effect is a leftfield example, a non-combat game mechanic that abates the monotony of combat.
To clarify, you didn't actually PLAY the game did you?
the more posts someone has the more likely they just post bs dude,
>_>
You've found out my secret!
Edit: I've enjoyed the pacing throughout the game
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/11 11:46:32
DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+ Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics
Don't read this if you haven't finished it yet. (and Mind you, I haven't even played the game, not my kinda game) But I found something very intersting concerning the character that I find most interesting, song bird.
So yeah, don't know if this has been posted before but:
Spoiler:
You can hear Songbird dying in bioshock 1 at the piano part, theres videos on it on youtube, at work so can't really link them.
Regardless of my oppinion, having prepared this so many years ahead seems astounding. That, or they just happened to re-use an ambient sound.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/11 13:41:40
) = story, A Change of Pace (we both seem to agree on my implied meaning of the phrase at least 
) needs to involve game mechanics, simples. I want a story i read a book, to be somewhat churlish.
~4100
~1660
