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I am in need of some advice and insight as to how to effectivily combat Lizardmen. I havent had too much of an issue before, but these new lists are sprouting up with dual slann or dual stegadon. And the Skinks are always a nussiance. I play Dwarves, and am in need of some assistance with this.

Now usually, I run a double Hammerers list with two Cannons and two Organ Guns at 2500pts, to great affect. But I have recently begun to think that maybe I need more ranged attacks, another Cannon? More Quarrellers, or less Rangers? For the first 2-3 turns or so, I can do well by tearing through with the ranged attacks, as is expected. However into turn 3, and the enemy closes in, Skinks are in the back, the Saurus are locking down my Hammerers, and the Runelord cannot ward of further magical attacks by the Slann. Usually the Saurus are not a big problem, as the Cannons take care of most of them, as well as the Cavalry. I suppose the main problem is thinning down the enemy ranks enough, and taking out the Slann, which of course has Lore of Metal.

So, I just need some help with this. All comments and advice welcome!

I'd consider Thunderers instead of Quarrelers considering the 4+ the common lizard has.

The most effective tactic still is to "corner-fortress" thus get yourself in a corner and protect your guns with your infantry. Bonus: he cannot get his Skinks behind your lines. Magic shouldn't be much of an issue, you should have 3-5 additional dispel dice and do consider the Rune of Balance.

Remember that even if the Slann gets the "immune to non-magic damage" discipline, your runed-up war machines can still kill him.

Do you have Thorak yet? If not: get him. Seriously, do it. He is borderline broken and should be a staple in every Dwarf army as soon as you can afford fielding him

Yeah I was considering Thunderers. I like the Quarrellers because of the great weapons. But I can probably get a unit of Thunderers in. And I usually end up tearing through the Temple Guard. The real issue with magic, is that later on all my RoSpellbreaking have been used. MRoBalance is still really helpful but its just spell after spell.

I am going to see if I can fit Thorek in, but at this lower point level im not too sure, maybe a Runelord with Anvil?

I am also going to have to set up my castle better I suppose. It is difficult to get it just right sometimes. Also Terradons are a pain occasionaly.

Corner-castles have the advantage of Terradons not being allowed to land anywhere thus they can't fly over your units (make sure you're units are tight). Taking them down with Hellfire Cannons / Bolt Throwers also works really well, let alone Thunderers.

Anvil is downright awesome and the hands-down best model in the entire Dwarven army.

Disspelling shouldn't be too hard given your natural +2 bonus and the additional dispel dice you get from your rune smiths. You should be looking at about ~10 dispel dice on average per turn. Also consider getting MR on your important infantry blocks as you might not have armor saves vs. LoM, but would then get ward saves vs. those wounds.

Ah yeah I can see the Terradons having issues landing and such. And the Thunderers will do well to take them out. I will have to focus on the Slann much more with the Cannons, and make sure I have enough infantry to fight close combat.

Also take Grude Throwers into consideration. Runed up, they can also take care of any infantry unit he throws at you. For dwarfs, max out on war machines, then focus on the rest

....and get the anvil ofc.

I also saw the konga Slayer line used once...fun and pretty damn effective. Just a long, wide line of Slayers, stopping the enemy. Also, take organ guys and give 'em hell.

And: remember that 8th is about big units. Your enemy only gets points when your entire unit is destroyed - and a unit of 40-50+ hammerers is there to stay.

Remember that he will have to come to you because your firepower is immense and his magic should be nullified by you, corner down and blast away with grudethrowers/cannons

I have considered Grudge Throwers, I will probably be getting one or two soon. As for the army itself, I have set it up at 2500pts with:
3 Cannons all w/RoForging RoReloading and an Engineer. One with RoBurning.
2 Organ Guns.
2 units of 16 Quarrellers w/GW and FC.
One unit of 16 Thunderers w/FC.
Runelord w/Anvil of Doom, 2 Dispel Scrolls MRoBalance, RoStone and a shield.
Thane BSB w/MRoChallenging, MRoGromril, RoResistance.
36 Hammerers w/RoBattle(or Rune of Slowness)
2479pts total.
This is only a little short of 2500. As much as I like how it looks shooting wise, I am skeptical as to how it would fare in the castle, also if I should just take Thorek. I would probably place the Quarrellers on the flanks with the Hammerers in the middle, and possibly the Organ Guns forward next to them. Then Cannons on hills behind with the Anvil, and possibly the Thunderers there as well but I am not too sure.

Other than a few things, I feel like this is a pretty solid army, again my only real concern would be when the enemy gets up close. But the Hammerers can be buffed by the Anvil along with everything else, and I don't think there will be any problems with magic at this point.

To deal with lizardmen, you need max grudge throwers cannons and organ guns. Once you prioritise the targets for each war machine, the army becomes much easier to deal with. Dual slaan has an abundance of skinks, and organ guns rip them apart. You won't get the slaan without getting the unit first. So you take out the chaff first leaving them with the bunkers till the end.

Yeah thats what it seems like. And not even just for Lizardmen but most armies. I am going to include more war machines overall for army lists.

Everything you're getting told here is pretty much spot on. If I came up against that sort of gunline in a tournament setting I'd let you castle and just chill out in the other corner for the 30 minutes it took to get a 10-10. Other armies that can't beat you will probably do the same. That's the issue with the dwarven gunline - most armies can hold you to a draw by just walking away and the armies that can beat you do so, meaning a decent tourney result is very hard to get.

Sneaky_Gobbo wrote:
Everything you're getting told here is pretty much spot on. If I came up against that sort of gunline in a tournament setting I'd let you castle and just chill out in the other corner for the 30 minutes it took to get a 10-10. Other armies that can't beat you will probably do the same. That's the issue with the dwarven gunline - most armies can hold you to a draw by just walking away and the armies that can beat you do so, meaning a decent tourney result is very hard to get.

Pretty much. Dwarven gunline needs severe nerfs as in all tournaments, matches vs. dwarven corner fortresses end up with the enemy hiding everything out of LOS hoping for the Grudge Throwers not to kill a unit. By not assaulting the fortress, you lose less points than by assaulting - which is a pretty bad idea to begin with. ETC restrictions limit you to 5 war machines (incl. max 2 Grude Throwers), but those war machines still are incredibly reliable and effective.

Dwarf gunlines never win tournaments despite winning most games, they just can't make enough points due to points denial. Such a match is, however, neither fun to play with or against and is thus looked down upon. Typical match vs. dwarf gunline: move turn 1, buff troops / try to get magic off. Rest of your turns: try to get magic off. That's it. Your turns now take 2 minutes

Yeah I definitely understand how that all goes. Which is mainly why I am trying to make different style lists that dont have to just castle away. Namely the Rangers list, Double Hammerers list, and Slayer lists.

I'd stay away from Slayers though...they are really, really bad and cost a lot of points.

Mountain-Breaker wrote:
Yeah I definitely understand how that all goes. Which is mainly why I am trying to make different style lists that dont have to just castle away. Namely the Rangers list, Double Hammerers list, and Slayer lists.

I think the minimal deployment ranger lists can do fairly well. If they have to they can just castle but if the opportunity is there they can actually get more than 11-12 points

Recently I have been looking at Ranger lists a lot more, I made one with two Longbeard Ranger units, GW Quarrellers and Thunderers sitting with some forward set Cannons and Organ Guns. Then have Miners come in on a flank.

This will give good flankinf attacks all around. I think it could be quite good

I think the anvil adds a lot to that list as the out of phase charges can be devastating.

I agree. My question is, just take Thorek? As the Runelord with everything is 420 some points. And Thorek has excellent benefits the Runelord cannot obtain.

It really depends on what flies in your local gaming community. We're not too cool on SC down here so for me Thorek would be a no go since I couldn't use it in tourneys which is where I mainly play.

That said if you're just club/garage hammering, I'd agree that Thorek is the way forward.

Well I will include him then, always wanted to try it also, shoukd be fun. Now I need to fit in war machines and infantry. I have a pretty solid start got a list to exactly 2400pts. But thats also another 200pts of Lizardmen to battle.(recent battles have been 2200pts as opposed to 2500.) But I think it is solid. It seems I always end up going back to two Cannons and two Organ Guns.

The corner castle game is too boring to play more than one time

Just get a purple sun off with irresistible to win. If they are using becalming cogitation its a little harder but it only take one.

Sadly the easiest counters to lizzies purple sun and dwellers ( just max dice either) they go off you can neuter lizzies. Isn't an option for dwarves.
I would think ruined up throwers are superior as the VAST MAJORITY of all lizzy lists will have one or two big blocks.
Cannons hit less, organ guns much shorter range. Cannon sniping of slann not very effective as they are usually in big units and can have good ward saves.
Focused fire from 3 or 4 throwers will wipe any unit from the table. You can up str, accuracy yes expensive but highly effective. Get the unit low enough slan is much easier to target.
The rest of your army needs to be focused on ranged chaff removal and anti magic.
Salamanders in pairs will destroy entire units high priority target!!
Slann with life will just max dice throne then dwellers you into oblivian. Must get it quick.

Hmm yeah I have been considering Bolt Throwers. My Cannons have served my well, but I am thinking a high strength Bolt right through the ranks can be devastating. I will probaly try that out. And Skinks really an be a pain, however I have put some GW Quarrellers on the sides to guard against them, they usually get shot down quickly. The Organ Guns have been excellent though! Taking out entire units of cavalry without any trouble, aside from the shorter range(which isnt really that big a deal) they are probably one of the bes things about the army.

Oops my bad the catapults are what I meant think I had stone thrower in my head not BT

Ooh ha ha, well still, I am goig to try out the Bolt Throwers I think. But I know that Grudge Throwers can be damn good, really against any opponent. Especially against big blocks, and those Temple Guard. I have only one and it always comes into great use. Smashing down oncoming enemies. I will probably invest in another one. The debate I often have though is what to take! Everything can be excellent, but perhaps I will try one of each. Cannon, Organ Gun, Grudge Thrower and see how it goes.

lol sorry OP for some reason i had it in my head you were empire not dwarfs, yeah i guess magic is off the table. What about the runes that destory spells? Use that for throne of vines and dwellers if you can buy 2.

Oh yeah, I was rather confused initially haha, no problem. But I have a Runelord with 2xRoSpellbreaking(dispel scrolls) and MRoBalance. So I will always have at least 6 dispel dice. You are thinking of the Spelleater Rune which I have considered for those exact reasons. Works the same as a RoSpellbreaking but also destroys the spell on a 4+

Uh what? Bolt Throwers superior to cannons? Are we talking of the same Dwarfs here? :/

 Sigvatr wrote:
Uh what? Bolt Throwers superior to cannons? Are we talking of the same Dwarfs here? :/

Bolt throwers aren't bad. They are dirt cheap. If you're going to run a lot of warmachines, it isn't bad to have a pair of bolt throwers with your cannons and stone throwers.
Now if only flame cannons weren't horrible.

-Matt